Supernatural defies science.

[tyler_demerhcant]

The reason I find it doubtful that Cancer would leave instantaniouisly without warning is because it is an example of microevolution and mutation of the human body. The cells are completely destroyed and there is no possible means by which those cells can be repaired or removed in a very short ammount of time.

How is cancer suddenly regressing an example of microevolution?

Are you sure there are no possible means of cancer suddenly dissapearing?

I am not talking about regression as an example, I am talking about the progression. I think microevolution is probably not the correct term, mutation is much more accurate.

I have heard of specific cases where cancers regresses but it is never suddenly and almost never without a notified cause. If you can provide me with an example, I would gladly adhere to it.

Cancer is not a very good example.

A better example would be of an individual I know who could not walk for serveral years and was healed through prayer.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Who cares about a puny event like a cured cancer?

Any fool receiving radiation therapy or chemotherapy or even laugh therapy can recover from cancer!

A real miracle is a born-again Christian, a person who's life has been transformed, say...

...from a thief to an honest man...
...from an opportunistic fraud to a man of integrity...
...from a/an _____-addict to a clean spirit...
...from an atheist to a believer...
from a violent man to a loving man...

I could go on but you get the picture.

FL

[tyler_demerhcant]

these are all good things, but athiests and non-believers don't care about such things, esspecially scientists. The point is evangilism and saving peoples lives. For this reason, I feel it is important to go to their levels of thought.

I couldnt care less if the trees all die and pollution sucks or whatever. The thought of people going to hell is the most disturbing reality I can think of, not other petty things. That is why I think it is important for science to understand that miricles do exist and that there is proof right infront of our eyes. It is just a matter of collecting that proof and presenting it to the world.

[Canuckster1127]

these are all good things, but athiests and non-believers don't care about such things, esspecially scientists. The point is evangilism and saving peoples lives. For this reason, I feel it is important to go to their levels of thought.

I couldnt care less if the trees all die and pollution sucks or whatever. The thought of people going to hell is the most disturbing reality I can think of, not other petty things. That is why I think it is important for science to understand that miricles do exist and that there is proof right infront of our eyes. It is just a matter of collecting that proof and presenting it to the world.

Miracles, by definition, are events that occur outside the normal, explainable processes of science and human observation. As such, "proof" is difficult if not impossible to provide.

While I believe God is real and does intervene in the affairs of men, you will not convince a true skeptic of a miracle on the basis of hear-say or testimony. They want something that is measurable, and can be demonstrated in front of them to the satisfaction of their 5 senses.

There are better paths to follow, in my opinion, for assisting a skeptic to a decision point regarding Christ, than attempting to do it this way. But I wish you the best of luck in the attempt.

[August]

I think it is best to just preach the gospel, and not rely on arguments that are ultimately constructed for man to judge God.

The conversion of a non-believer is a supernatural event in itself, and the catalyst for that supernatural event is that the non-believer hears the gospel.

The reason for debate with non-believers is, from my perspective, to provide a reasoned and logical explanation of our faith to a watching or listening audience. The conversion of a non-believer through debate is not the way the Bible tells us to engage with non-believers for conversion, and I have frankly never seen a non-believer turn because of losing a debate, through many debates. I have seen many non-believers turn after hearing the gospel though.

[Randall]

Miracles do occur today, where miracle is defined as something which contradicts normal physical behavior or violates the laws of physics.

One example, and I regret that I didn't photograph or have this notarized, is an incident whereby the index finger of a middle-aged woman was grown back supernaturally from the first knuckle to the second, after she stepped for prayer to the visiting evangelist Joe Jordan at Praise Center, Escondido California in an evangelical meeting. This was in the early summer of 1982 or 1983.

She asked "Does God care about small things like this?" as she held her hand up. I was sitting in the 2nd pew next to the aisle, so it was easy to see that she meant her amputated right index finger.

Joe said "Let's pray and see what God thinks about it" He held her hand on top of his open palm, so no one could say that he had anything to do about faking a miracle, and then prayed. To everyone's astonishment, her finger started growing back, about 30 seconds or so. I saw it grow out from the end, much like blowing up a sausage balloon, as you blow air into it. The new skin appeared at the tip of the finger as it continued to elongate and resume its normal length. This stopped after the index finger reached the 2nd knuckle. It did NOT grow out completely.

Everyone got quiet. You could have heard a pin drop. Then people got scared, almost frightened.

Once you meet supernatural power, you don't forget it.

A second miracle, this time documented with CAT scans is the cerebral tumor of a young girl named Amanda Anthony, age 5. Her CAT scan dated November 29th, 1983 shows the dark tumor. However after prayer, the CAT scan on Dec 12th, 1984 shows that the tumor has vanished. I cannot imagine a tumor disappearing in 14 days, since it appears to be about 7 cm in length and about 4 or 5 cm in width and appears to be very large.

These CAT scans were done by Tampa General Hospital, with a Dr. Weiss and Dr. Maniscalco as attending physicians if I am to believe the photo reproductions of these scans.

Yes., miracles are rare. And they cannot be conducted at the demand of scientists (because the person behind the miracles IS a person) But to say that supernatural power or realm does not exist is to make a serious mistake.

[Canuckster1127]

Miracles do occur today, where miracle is defined as something which contradicts normal physical behavior or violates the laws of physics.

One example, and I regret that I didn't photograph or have this notarized, is an incident whereby the index finger of a middle-aged woman was grown back supernaturally from the first knuckle to the second, after she stepped for prayer to the visiting evangelist Joe Jordan at Praise Center, Escondido California in an evangelical meeting. This was in the early summer of 1982 or 1983.

She asked "Does God care about small things like this?" as she held her hand up. I was sitting in the 2nd pew next to the aisle, so it was easy to see that she meant her amputated right index finger.

Joe said "Let's pray and see what God thinks about it" He held her hand on top of his open palm, so no one could say that he had anything to do about faking a miracle, and then prayed. To everyone's astonishment, her finger started growing back, about 30 seconds or so. I saw it grow out from the end, much like blowing up a sausage balloon, as you blow air into it. The new skin appeared at the tip of the finger as it continued to elongate and resume its normal length. This stopped after the index finger reached the 2nd knuckle. It did NOT grow out completely.

Everyone got quiet. You could have heard a pin drop. Then people got scared, almost frightened.

Once you meet supernatural power, you don't forget it.

A second miracle, this time documented with CAT scans is the cerebral tumor of a young girl named Amanda Anthony, age 5. Her CAT scan dated November 29th, 1983 shows the dark tumor. However after prayer, the CAT scan on Dec 12th, 1984 shows that the tumor has vanished. I cannot imagine a tumor disappearing in 14 days, since it appears to be about 7 cm in length and about 4 or 5 cm in width and appears to be very large.

These CAT scans were done by Tampa General Hospital, with a Dr. Weiss and Dr. Maniscalco as attending physicians if I am to believe the photo reproductions of these scans.

Yes., miracles are rare. And they cannot be conducted at the demand of scientists (because the person behind the miracles IS a person) But to say that supernatural power or realm does not exist is to make a serious mistake.

Randall,

Welcome to the site!

2 questions.

1. The first instance certainly sounds like a miracle. I appreciate that you mention documentation. Is it available on line?

2. You may want to check your dates on the tumor reference. There's more than a year there, not 14 days unless you made a typo on the year.

I believe in miracles.

I do think we need to be careful about claiming them without evidence where it can be provided. Testimony is a form of evidence that is relied upon both historically and contemporarily.

In the first case I would think x-rays from a certified source would be good.

In the second case, if it is in fact 14 days that would be a remarkable and wonderful occurance. No less if over a year, but in that case one could argue some other form of natural occurance, even if rare. Tumors have been known to spontaneously shrink or disappear on occassion for undetermined reasons.

Doesn't mean they aren't miracles and that there aren't many more. I just think we need to be careful about how we promote them.

[Randall]

Thanks for checking out the dates, it is a typographical mistake, both are 1983, not 1983 then 1984, so the period of time is 14 days.

I only can provide a photocopy of the CAT scans for Amanda Anthony, I don't think it is available on the web.

Regarding the person, I believe named June, whose finger was partially regenerated, I did speak to a medical doctor who worked for the Skeptics Society and he admitted that if I could provide x-rays, before and after, that would be an acceptable bonafide miracle.

Sorry that I didn't think of this right when it happened ;-) Next time I'll try to see what I can do :-)

Regarding documentation, I only have that for Amanda, not the other party.

I agree that it is important to document miracles, but I honestly haven't seen too much effort from anyone to do so in the way you suggest, whether or not they believe in God or not, and this has been a frustration to me, as I have spoken to both groups in attempting to document valid miracles.

Finally we're not to focus on miracles, but rather realize that all of us are accountable to a person to which we will have to answer one day.

What answer will we give? That's the important thing.

[tyler_demerhcant]

Thanks randall for these comments.

I am in agreement with you, very little effort is done.

The importance of documentation in my oppinion is for three purposes.

1. It provides a valide argument for people who say miracles do not exist.

2. It provides hope for those who are in doubt and an example of God's grace.

3. It provides examples of unexplained occurrance.

Like I have said before, science should be studying these. If there is no God, then purhaps there are ways to heal oneself by willpower or mere words exposed to the brain. They don't because they know miracles do exist and they would only succeed in providing evidence for a creater.

I want to start an international supernatural occurance database online, but I lack the time and equipment at this point to do so.

Please send to me the pictures and the full story.

I also need the proper credentials for my book.

Thanks randall.

[Elisa]

Hi Tyler,
I basically believe that Evolution and Creation are 2 different viewpoints of the same thing and that they are both correct theories.

Regarding supernatural phenomena, my belief is a simple one: that these can all be explained by science, or rather, that one day we will explain them. And some will be validated by science, others might be shown to be incorrect. But just as we evolve and life goes on, there is always more to learn and experience; and this is why supernatural phenomena will always exist and why science and our understanding will always be catching-up to it.

So I essentially view such matters from a 'everything moves in cycles' sense. (another way of explaining my self is: that there exists order, and therefore God exists; but then there also exists lack of order as experienced by us when we cannot see the order; and that God has a God and as we grow and evolve we come to see broader and broader definitions for understanding and our definition for God evolves. In this way, God and Science are the same thing: they are based on what we so far understand ...but there is always room for more.)

[Shaded~]

why couldnt god and evolution go hand and hand?

[Canuckster1127]

why couldnt god and evolution go hand and hand?

They could.

There is a very large group of Christians who believe it does and they are called Theistic Evolutionists. CS Lewis, who is believed by many to be one of the best apologists of the Christian Faith in the 20th century was a Theistic Evolutionist.

I am an Old Earth Creationist and I believe that evolution is real and pretty much proven in terms of development and change within a species.

I'm not so sure about it on a larger scale. As it stands now, I believe in what is called progressive creationism, where God intervened with initial creative acts at different points along the creative process described in general in Genesis.

This is an area where Christians can disagree with each other and not have it affect their fellowship. Mature Christians can anyway. Some get really worked up about it on all sides. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about the issue. It's important to keep things in perspective however.

[tyler_demerhcant]

Thats all correct.

However, God is above and beyond evolution. Science can not prove macro evolution. Canuckster and I can both agree on micro-evolution, I think just about anyone can.

Macro-evolution is the process of species to species transformation over a tremendous period of time.

Micro-evolution is the change in the genetic structuring of a species.

We have amny forms of dogs, cats, apes, fish, whales...

Macro-evolution can not be proven and is not even scientificly plausible.

Very limited evidence excists to support macro-evolution despite what scientists will tell you. For example, there are less than .1 % of the fossil record that shows transforming species.

If Macro-evolution was plausible and supported by fact, there would need to be a consistant ammount of transformation taking place in fossils.

Unless of course, no species that was evolving ever died.

God is ultimate, he transends all existance. He is not equal to evolution because he is the same today and yesterday and tomarrow.

Our knowledge of God is not growing, in some ways it is weakening. Only Moses really knows whether or not God said 7 literal days or if he said 4 billion years or whatever, but Moses held strong relationship with God and therefor he knew God better than I.

Phenomina is only true Phenomina if it comes from Supernatural sources.