Cook wrote:How can hell not be neglected and negated in today's modern world? The abolishment of "cruel and unusual punishment" is the highest law of the land in the US. Even in our imperfect, far-from-Godlike society we've come to know that it is not acceptable to inflict punishment of pain and torture for wrongdoing. Even for the worst crimes such as murder, prisoners receive daily nutrition and access to healthcare and libraries, basics of sustenance for body and mind, and don't go on the torture rack. Animals that maul and even kill people are treated better, and are euthanized, instead of being tormented and artificially kept alive to maximize torment.
Well, in the USA, we lock up criminals, why? Then we let them go, then lock them up again and again. Some can be reformed, but most will not. I think Ecclesiastes 8:11 has answer, “When we see criminals commit crime after crime without being punished, it makes us want to start a life of crime.” CEV
Maybe God eternally imprisons so crime will stop repeating itself? Who knows?
Cook wrote:For me hell is not real. It's a relic notion from earlier times when God was seen in much more primitive terms as a hot-tempered tyrant of whims and emotion. This is human anthropomorphism of the eternal God from harsh ages in ancient human history, and for me it does not survive contact with the light of Jesus that inspires high trust or contact with modern human reasoning. Even secular atheists live by ethics of the golden rule -- treat others the way you want to be treated -- which leads to a more advanced stage of understanding where torture is not judicially acceptable and is far far far from being "love". Hell is an "old wineskin" of a belief to me and incompatible with the "new wine skin" good news that God is love and we are to love him with all our heart, mind, and soul. Jac3510 described well how he would have to drastically change his theology to do without the concept of hell, but many people would have to drastically change their understanding of love and justice to entertain this severe and cruel aspect of theological belief. And it is not even necessary in order for essential bright truth to be seen, the pearl of great price to be obtained. It is even a hindrance, as you've pointed out.
Yes, valued point, God's love is primary. Hebrews 6:2 does state there is a doctrine of eternal punishment. What does God do with those that reject His love? John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” KJVA
Would it be fair to keep those that have, by proven living examples, rejected God's love to remain and thus keep that rejection going on forever? God is fair, He designed humanity with the ability to think, reason, and love on our own. This is wise and fair and just because it absolves God from creating sin. Would it be fair to God to let sin remain? How could he justly change a person?
Cook wrote:The passages attributed to Jesus in the Bible about hell to me are figurative and it is a stretch to make the burning of chaff or elimination of dross into a concept that encompasses eternal life of suffering. As Jesus said, "He that believes in me, though he dies, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die." How can this promise have meaning if actually nobody dies?
I can see your point. But how can a living God justly extinguish life forever and remain true to Himself — to be the author of life?
Cook wrote:To me the highest purest demonstration of God's character ever provided to humanity was in the person of Jesus and his life's example and teachings. I understand that even the least person in the kingdom of love that Jesus taught is greater than any of the old prophets. I think he was truly the divine Son of God and that a study of him is a study of the Father. From Jesus we learn -- though the Pharisees and experts of legalistic theology were blinded from seeing and learning these truths -- that in fact God *is* mocked, and he returns love for being mocked. God is spit on, whipped, tortured, and still he returns love and affection toward his enemies. We see that he overcame this world and exhausted the full bitter cup of evil being driven into him and yet he reveals that God, even when so ignominiously and outrageously abused in this way by his children, *still* returns love and light to them. That is the divine character. To return goodness for evil, to be long-suffering, and to extend love even to the lowly and sinful who don't deserve it.
Amen and very well said. It seems to me, that God offers a choice to Humanity. It is His call. Faith comes by hearing. His calling toward lost humanity is just and fair. Now, how will humanity respond to this hearing?
Cook wrote:For me it is necessary to be rid of the concept of wrath and punitive torture especially because of Jesus' injunction to "be you perfect, even as the Father is perfect." (Or in my case, not to be rid of it, since I never really have believed it, but that it remains in the dustbin). Though we can't hope to attain that perfection, Jesus wants us to progressively come closer to it, and the direction is made clear by him, that it is by love and selfless service. The addition of anger, wrath, and pitiless legalistic judgment to the portrait of the eternal God skews us to dare to feel these are acceptable attitudes toward our neighbors. By faith in grasping the true goodness of the Father, and that this goodness is willing to suffer and endure mocking and even physical insults on the body in order to be a light to others, we are compelled to bestow this same true goodness and service to our neighbors. No higher love is there than this, that you lay down your life for your neighbor. A capacity for such high service to others certainly is far beyond the level where it is possible to be aggrieved by simply being mocked.
Jesus did warn us about everlasting fire and hell and taught on eternal recompense. I do not think we need to rid this concept from the bible. As for being perfect, I think this word means — become mature. Grow in Christ. Become more like Christ in a progressing learning manner. We can do that. Will we stumble, yes! We learn from these living daily lessons as God directs our learning steps. The Goodness of God leads to repentance but what do you do with them that reject God's goodness and learning to be Christ like?
Cook wrote: How is it that hell doesn't make for a tendency to retard and inhibit growth in spiritual understanding and truth by aligning the objectives of religion on selfish preservation? There is always a level of insecurity in coming to know God, but hell prolongs this insecurity in my view, people should be partners with God and secure in his love, and trust him above all else.
I do see your point here and Amen!
Here maybe is why' hell doesn't make for a tendency to retard and inhibit growth in spiritual understanding and truth by aligning the objectives of religion on selfish preservation' - Ecc 8:11 “When we see criminals commit crime after crime without being punished, it makes us want to start a life of crime.” CEV
Cook wrote: What does hell accomplish in spiritual life beyond a very thin application of massively coercive scare tactics in one brief susceptible life? Beyond that thin layer, once in the security of God's love -- the most solid of foundations -- it is of no purpose. And this can be realized even in this brief human life. This is a very early rung on the ladder of attainment up to glory and perfection. God is love. God is our Father in heaven. We're to accept this and go on to the greater work he would have us do, which is to bear much fruit in selfless service to others and share our light with those sitting in darkness. As the good Master said: Fear not. Be of good cheer. Peace be upon you.
Good points Cook and very well stated.
While reading your post, it seems to me that you are saying that God Himself is the one who tortures in Hell and that this is unacceptable for many, including yourself, based on God's character — being a God of love, etc…
This seems to be a sticking point many have with the doctrine of Hell — viewing God as the big mean torturer in the sky.
This brings up a good point - Is it really God who punishes in Hell? Is this true? Some sure like to make God out to be the happy torturer of the damned and that He is in hell pulling toenails out of sinner's toes for fun.
From what I read from the bible, people receive just recompense in Hell for their rejecting of God and in accordance to their deeds. I do not see where it is stated precisely that God is the one torturing a lost soul, or devil, in hell; rather, I see from scripture that these reap what they have sown in varied degrees until the final judgment — sentencing - happens as Revelations chapter 20 state where they are sentenced to a lake of fire.
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