Creation equal to Creator?

[monotheist]

I've come across Christians that claim that Jesus is God. I, for certain, can declare that Jesus is not God. There are so many verses in the OT that says, there is only one God, and there is no other god besides God. Furthermore, Jesus never once said he was God. All the verses Christians fall back on have to deal with everyone else, besides Jesus. How is it that they can conclude Jesus is God, if Jesus never once said he was?

Is the blind equal to the seeing? Then how is the Creator equal to the creation?

Also, the Trinity states that Jesus is not God, unless Jesus combines himself with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Also, if the Trinity is, in fact, for real, then what was God when Jesus was on earth? Jesus was seperate from God, so God couldn't have been God, while Jesus was on earth.

[B. W.]

I've come across Christians that claim that Jesus is God. I, for certain, can declare that Jesus is not God. There are so many verses in the OT that says, there is only one God, and there is no other god besides God. Furthermore, Jesus never once said he was God. All the verses Christians fall back on have to deal with everyone else, besides Jesus. How is it that they can conclude Jesus is God, if Jesus never once said he was?

Is the blind equal to the seeing? Then how is the Creator equal to the creation?

Also, the Trinity states that Jesus is not God, unless Jesus combines himself with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Also, if the Trinity is, in fact, for real, then what was God when Jesus was on earth? Jesus was seperate from God, so God couldn't have been God, while Jesus was on earth.

For starters:

John 8:54-59

John 1:1-17

Jesus is the Oral Torah, which would tanslate Logos for the non-Jew. Note verse 17 and context of quote about the Law came by Moses and the Truth came by Christ. Truth represents the concept of Oral Torah.

Hense John 1:14 "The Word [Oral Torah] became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him all the grace, kindness, and all the truth of God have come down to us. [Oral Torah reflects Kindness and Truth from God through Oral Instructions] CEV

Jesus delcared Himself One with the Father and the religious Leaders of that time picked up stones to kill Him but Jesus walked through the crowd unscathed.

Jesus explained the written Torah and fulfilled it and changed the covenant:

See Galatians 3

Only God Himself could do this - no other...

[monotheist]

I can understand that the word was Jesus, but it doesnt say that Jesus (the Word) was [the] God. There's a difference. If you need help on distinguishing the difference, relate back to the Greek NT, of John 1:1.

As for John 8:54-59, if you look back in the begining of 8, you'll notice 8:1-11 have been added in. That would mean, you'd have to subtract 11 verses from 8, which removes 8:54-59. So, 8:54-59 no longer comes into play.

As for Galatians 3, i have no idea what you meant by this, but You've pointed something out for me, and i thank you:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law".

I think he just contradicted himself. Cursed is one who DOESN'T follow the Book of the Law. NOT one who does.

You may try again, now.

[Tim S]

John 10:30 "I and [my] Father are one"

So Jesus doesn't say He is God? If he is "one" with the Father, may I ask one what?

Jesus was not made or created. He was begotten, unlike you or me or anthing else.

Do you purport to know better than the apostles? They said He was God.
Philippians 2:6 says it all.

[monotheist]

The 12 Disciples Jesus picked did know better, unfortunately, the Bible was rewritten to fit Paul's views. I see you agree with Paul also, since you pointed out to Philippians.

As for John 10:30, that doesn't mean they're the same being, but one in purpose. They both wanted to spread the Gospel.

Jesus was not made or created. He was begotten, unlike you or me or anthing else.

I was begot also, so um.. yea..

Abraham begot Ishmael and Isaac, it goes down the list.

[Canuckster1127]

I've come across Christians that claim that Jesus is God. I, for certain, can declare that Jesus is not God. There are so many verses in the OT that says, there is only one God, and there is no other god besides God. Furthermore, Jesus never once said he was God. All the verses Christians fall back on have to deal with everyone else, besides Jesus. How is it that they can conclude Jesus is God, if Jesus never once said he was?

Is the blind equal to the seeing? Then how is the Creator equal to the creation?

Also, the Trinity states that Jesus is not God, unless Jesus combines himself with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Also, if the Trinity is, in fact, for real, then what was God when Jesus was on earth? Jesus was seperate from God, so God couldn't have been God, while Jesus was on earth.

Well Monotheist.

Welcome to our board.

I am very willing to discuss this with you. However, it would help me if you would tell me a little bit about yourself. Who you are, where you live and what your spiritual background is. Are you part of an organization? Are your thoughts the result of your own study of scripture? Do you accept the Bible as the final authority or some other written work?

Why don't you let us know a little bit about yourself and these issues and I'll be happy to discuss your thoughts with regard to your statements above.

[Poetic_Soul]

[Hebrews 1]
1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

[B. W.]

I can understand that the word was Jesus, but it doesnt say that Jesus (the Word) was [the] God. There's a difference. If you need help on distinguishing the difference, relate back to the Greek NT, of John 1:1.

As for John 8:54-59, if you look back in the begining of 8, you'll notice 8:1-11 have been added in. That would mean, you'd have to subtract 11 verses from 8, which removes 8:54-59. So, 8:54-59 no longer comes into play.

As for Galatians 3, i have no idea what you meant by this, but You've pointed something out for me, and i thank you:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law".

I think he just contradicted himself. Cursed is one who DOESN'T follow the Book of the Law. NOT one who does.

You may try again, now.

It would be nice to know something of your background and religious belief so we can have an intelligent written conversation of this thread. Remember, you are welcome here and can post your views. So if you do not mind, please be kind enough to know your background.

According to Jewish Tradition, the Oral Torah came before the Law of Moses - Who is the one giving the instructions? You seem to know this answer.

As for stating that John 8: 54-59 no longer applies, this does not hold true but rather serves a convenient dodge to dispense with parts of the bible one does not like. It is used often but proves nothing.

There is something on the order of 28,000 historical manuscripts that support the New Testament and these verses cited. If my memory serves me correctly, there are only about 600 documents that support the history of the Trojan War and less than that that tell of the Roman conquest of England. These manuscripts have missing gaps in them as well while others documents contain what is missing. Did those missing gap events happen? Did Rome conquer England to Scotland?

As for Galatians chapter three please read Hebrews 9:15-26 Through Abraham's seed all Nations will be blest. The Oral Torah died and was resurrected in newness of life, explaining the mercy and Grace of God to those under this New Covenant in a public display. May the Lord grant you ears to hear and eyes to see this mercy He extends to you. God gave the First Covenant and the enforcer of it. It had to be changed — how could God change it?

Anyway, welcome to the Forum and God Bless!
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[monotheist]

In response to Canuckster1127:

Thanks, glad to be here. Well, i'm a monotheist , i'm from the USA. I used to be a Christian, but after a long study on my religion, i found most of it to be a lie. I noticed that Christianity has become a henotheist religion, rather than what it's suppose to be: monotheist. Cause of which, i've been leaning towards Muslim beliefs. I don't mind half of the Bible, just the other half; half truth, half lies. This should pretty much cover things up for me.

In response to Poetic_Soul:

It'd be more reliable if you didn't quote something that Jesus didn't say. Instead you quote an unknown author. Who is this dude? Who knows. Was he an apostle? Who knows. Such a source is unreliable.

Heb 1:6, such is false referencing. Who ever wrote Hebrews took advantage of that verse, but when you look back at Deut 32:43 and look at the context around that verse, you'll see that they weren't talking about Jesus. Heb 1:6 just decided to make it seem like they were.

Heb 1:8 is the same thing; false referencing. The dude took advantage of the verse. This is kinda like what "non-believers" do, only in this case it actually helps the "believer".

In response to B.W.:

Refer to the response given to: Canuckster1127, on more about me.

As for John 8:54-59, it still wouldn't matter even if it is counted. It doesn't claim that Jesus is God. It just said, that Jesus existed before Abraham, just like many other prophets. If anything it proves even more that Jesus is not God.

May the Lord grant you ears to hear and eyes to see this mercy He extends to you.

Which Lord? I hope you mean God.

It had to be changed — how could God change it?

For what reason? It didn't have to be changed. If it needed to be changed, God wouldn't have placed an enforcer on it.

And, thanks, glad to be here.

[Canuckster1127]

In response to Canuckster1127:

Thanks, glad to be here. Well, i'm a monotheist , i'm from the USA. I used to be a Christian, but after a long study on my religion, i found most of it to be a lie. I noticed that Christianity has become a henotheist religion, rather than what it's suppose to be: monotheist. Cause of which, i've been leaning towards Muslim beliefs. I don't mind half of the Bible, just the other half; half truth, half lies. This should pretty much cover things up for me.

In response to Poetic_Soul:

It'd be more reliable if you didn't quote something that Jesus didn't say. Instead you quote an unknown author. Who is this dude? Who knows. Was he an apostle? Who knows. Such a source is unreliable.

Heb 1:6, such is false referencing. Who ever wrote Hebrews took advantage of that verse, but when you look back at Deut 32:43 and look at the context around that verse, you'll see that they weren't talking about Jesus. Heb 1:6 just decided to make it seem like they were.

Heb 1:8 is the same thing; false referencing. The dude took advantage of the verse. This is kinda like what "non-believers" do, only in this case it actually helps the "believer".

In response to B.W.:

Refer to the response given to: Canuckster1127, on more about me.

As for John 8:54-59, it still wouldn't matter even if it is counted. It doesn't claim that Jesus is God. It just said, that Jesus existed before Abraham, just like many other prophets. If anything it proves even more that Jesus is not God.

May the Lord grant you ears to hear and eyes to see this mercy He extends to you.

Which Lord? I hope you mean God.

It had to be changed — how could God change it?

For what reason? It didn't have to be changed. If it needed to be changed, God wouldn't have placed an enforcer on it.

And, thanks, glad to be here.

Ok Monotheist. That helps.

As I said, I'm glad you've come by.

You seem to have a buffet type of approach to Scripture. On that basis we're going to have difficulty, because frankly, if you take that approach it is far to easy to just discount those passages you don't like and hold to those you do.

With respect to your comments thus far:

Acceptance of the Trinity does not negate the oneness of God.

Your initial statement is pretty enigmatic where you refer to your observation that you have observed many Christians claiming Jesus is God, as if this is an exception rather than the rule. That immediately leads me to believe that you do not have a great scope of experience or observation as it is indeed orthodoxy within Christianity that Jesus is God and those elements of Christianity that do not recognize that are called "cults."

In terms of Christ's deity, I can give you a long list of prooftexts and examine them in the greek if you wish. Do you understand koine greek on your own?

For now, in an effort to be focused I'll simply focus on one element of Christ's deity demonstrated by the Scripture attributing to Christ the role of Creator.

Gen 1:1 states that God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1 states that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 1:3 states "All things were made by Him." Here we have direct attribution to Christ of the role of Creator. This equates Christ with God.

If there remains any doubt then it is erase in John 1:14 when it states clearly that that "Word" (logos) became flesh and dwelt among us.

Col 1:16 states this same truth outright.

Lest you draw the line at Christ and God in this role, the Holy Spirit is included in the same creator role in Gen 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalm 104:30

That's a start. Check out this link on this board for more direct scriptures that outright say Jesus is God and we can work on those 1 by 1 if you wish.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/songod.html

[Poetic_Soul]

The bible is like a cookbook. All the ingredients are there. To use some of the ingredients and leave out the rest, whatever you're cooking will not come out right. Same thing with the bible. You can't believe in half of it and throw the rest of it out the window. You seem to choose what makes you feel good to justify your beliefs. It's unfair to come to a forum knowing that half of what will be quoted, you'll shoot down with your theory of questionnaires of who wrote what and when. Faith comes by hearing, not picking what you want and don't want.

[August]

Hi monotheist,

According to your understanding, how does God save your soul?

Also, what is your criteria for scriptural consistency, be it Christian or Muslim?

[monotheist]

@[Canuckster1127]:

Well, my old self never had a buffet approach. Now, i have no choice. Plus, literally, i love buffets. :9

Yes, i'm aware that God will always be one.

Well, it is an exception, because there are many parts in the Bible that says, Jesus cannot be God (literally or not), and there are also parts that say he is. Which one is it? Well, if you're a Christian, of course you're gonna take the parts that you believe in. Buffet approach .

Gen 1:1, true.
John 1:1, false. Only true, if you consider the true translation. If you want the true translation of this verse, look into, what you guys call, "the JW's Bible" (New World Translation).
John 1:3, well after taking "care" of John 1:1, it would seem weird to continue thinking that the word "him" in this verse is still "Jesus", rather than "God".
John 1:14, somewhat true. I'll agree that the Word (Logos) did become flesh. But, not that God became flesh. If you consider the footnote, you'd be better off with that. Rather than the way it is now.

Yes, i'm well aware that Col 1:16 used John 1:3 as "backing". Though, i wouldn't say "all things", as in "the heavens and the earth". But, rather every miracle that Jesus "performed". You know, like every other prophet.

As for the stuff on the Holy Spirit, all those verses doesn't say "Holy Spirit", but rather "Spirit". Now, we're assuming, unlike the NT where it actually says "Holy Spirit". Now, i'm not denying that God is Holy. And i'm not denying that God is omnipresent. But, those verses is more assuming that that's what they meant by "Spirit". The Jews wrote the OT, didn't they? Would they agree that it means, "Holy Spirit"?

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@[Poetic_Soul]:

Well, there's more than one cookbook, and i found better recipies in the others. I tell people i used to be a Christian. Does this not imply that i used to believe that the whole Bible was true? Maybe i'm not specific enough. And faith comes in many forms. Unforutnately, people like to hear more than they like to read. Because of which, they should really study the Bible, rather than let someone else do it for them. Faith brought me to the truth. Believe you and me, i defend the Bible whenever necessary.

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@[August]:

Hi, August.

Well, God is Most Merciful and Savior. Through Him alone we find salvation (no need for Christ Jesus).

Well, you'd be amazed at the similarities between certain religions. How can two things be wrong about something? -- a new phrase i like to say xD. In fact, God said there should be at least two witnesses for something to be declared true. Well, truly one religion can use another religion to prove itself on something. But, not for everything. The thing about Muslims, they not only have their Bible (the Holy Qur'an) as one witness, they have other scriptures as another witness. And they have the Christian Bible, as half a witness. The [Christian] Bible seems to have only itself as one witness, and the Qur'an as half a witness. Maybe if so many things weren't banned from the Bible, it'd have lots more. And, maybe if, back then, there weren't so many burnings of scriptures, the Bible may have more witnesses.

Because of the case of witnesses. I lean towards the one that has more witnesses. The arguement i've received from this is, "where would faith be with proof?", well i responded, "Um, everywhere".

Oh, btw, August, your signature is proof that Jesus cant be God.

Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
[24]"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

[Canuckster1127]

Monotheist,

I have a degree in Biblical Literature and read the scriptures in Greek. There's a reason that the New World Translation is not accepted by the vast majority of Christendom. It's because the translators of that work did not have the scholarly integrity to attach their names to their translation and because they botched a great deal of passages including this one. If you are not a Jehovah's Witness, and I'll take you at your word based on your earlier answer that you are not, then you have no business using the NWT other than it is part of your buffet approach of picking and choosing what you like and what you don't which means you elevate yourself over the Scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

If you want to discuss this verse exegetically from the Greek as to why the NWT is patently wrong, feel free. You didn't answer my earlier question as to whether you were equipped to do this.

There is no place in Scripture that says Jesus cannot be God. If you believe it to be so, then it is up to you to demostrate that using the entire Bible. The Trinity, properly understood, does not compromise the oneness of God at all. There are some people that wrongly take the Trinity too far and do err on the side of separating The Father, Son and Spirit and that does compromise the oneness of God. It is no less a heresy and an error to go the other direction.

As to your comments regarding salvation outside of Christ. Perhaps you can explain this passage.

Acts 4:8-12

Here the key verse is in several different translations, just in case you want to pick and choose which one you like.

There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!" (WEB)

And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved. (ASV)

And in no other is there salvation: for there is no other name under heaven, given among men, through which we may have salvation. (BBE)

And salvation is in none other, for neither is there another name under heaven which is given among men by which we must be saved. (DBY)

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (KJV)

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, by which we must be saved. (WBS)

And in no other is the great salvation to be found; for, in fact, there is no second name under Heaven that has been given among men through which we are to be saved." (WEY)

and there is not salvation in any other, for there is no other name under the heaven that hath been given among men, in which it behoveth us to be saved.' (YLT)

Here it is in the Koine Greek (Byzantine Majority Text) if you'd like to discuss it there.

και ουκ εστιν εν αλλω ουδενι η σωτηρια ουτε γαρ ονομα εστιν ετερον [υπο τον ουρανον] το δεδομενον εν ανθρωποις εν ω δει σωθηναι ημας

Neither +__ is there salvation in any other for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby +__ we must be saved

Seems like you have some serious misconceptions about what the Apostles taught and preached and what the New Testement preserved throughout in many different places.

That's the problem with a buffet approach to Scripture. You don't get a balanced meal.

Isaiah 43:11, 45:21 gives you a clue from the Old Testament to this as well.

[August]

Hi Monotheist,

You make a lot of assertions, without backing any of it up. Look at your quote below. What proof do you have that this is athe best tranlsation?

John 1:1, false. Only true, if you consider the true translation. If you want the true translation of this verse, look into, what you guys call, "the JW's Bible" (New World Translation).

The original greek and subsequent translations are very clear, and it does not back up your assertion. The interlinear manuscript says:

καί θεός ἦν ὁ, (ἡ, τό) λόγος or literally "..and God was the Word". Please show the greek/english translation that disproves that.

I am also curious that you would refer to the JW Bible rendering of John 1 to support a monotheist position, since it says that Jesus was "a god", implying many gods.

Well, God is Most Merciful and Savior. Through Him alone we find salvation (no need for Christ Jesus).

You did not answer my question. I asked how God saves you, i.e. what is your view of the ordo salutis and its conditions and mechanisms.

Well, you'd be amazed at the similarities between certain religions. How can two things be wrong about something? -- a new phrase i like to say xD. In fact, God said there should be at least two witnesses for something to be declared true. Well, truly one religion can use another religion to prove itself on something. But, not for everything. The thing about Muslims, they not only have their Bible (the Holy Qur'an) as one witness, they have other scriptures as another witness. And they have the Christian Bible, as half a witness. The [Christian] Bible seems to have only itself as one witness, and the Qur'an as half a witness. Maybe if so many things weren't banned from the Bible, it'd have lots more. And, maybe if, back then, there weren't so many burnings of scriptures, the Bible may have more witnesses.

Because of the case of witnesses. I lean towards the one that has more witnesses. The arguement i've received from this is, "where would faith be with proof?", well i responded, "Um, everywhere".

Once again you did not answer my question. I asked you what your criteria for scriptural consistency was. How do you know what you read is true, and what is not?

We can then continue into a discussion about the consistency of the Bible vs other scriptures, when we have established what the standard is.

Oh, btw, August, your signature is proof that Jesus cant be God.

Well, don't keep us in suspense, explain why you say that.

In the meantime, please name the criteria that you believe it would take for Jesus to be God. What characteristics would Jesus have to exhibit to demonstrate that He is God, and how could we know that?