Is it logial to believe in a heaven or hell?

[Anonymous]

Let's all take a logical look at the existence of a religion that believes in a heaven or hell shall we!

I'll work backwards to make it easy:

What determines whether we choose to accept a certain religion? How we think, right? There's no question about that. If you are a skeptical person who needs facts to believe in something that's just the kind of person you are. Now, if we had the choice to think a certain way we should be held accountable by this "god" who would send us to "heaven" or "hell". But, if you think about it we have no control over the way we think. From birth you are only supplied with certain genetics and a certain environment that determine the way you think. I don't remember being at the creation of me next to "god" and saying "I'd like to be a person who isn't skeptical and who is capable of believing in something without evidence." So, it seems that our fate is predetermined. Up until this point in my life everything that makes think the way I do, and essentially makes me me, I had no control over. It is because of my genetics or the environment I was raised in. So it seems that we don't really have free will to make choices. Actually, we have free will to make choices, but the reason why it is not complete free will is because we have no control over the reasoning behind the choices we make. For instants, If you are coming up to a fork in the road and you can either go right or left, let's say you choose to go left. There is some reasoning behind the choice you end up making. Maybe left is more lucky for you than right or something along those lines. So it seems that the choices you make are determined by the way you think and the way you think you have no control over. So now let me ask you all a big question. Why would there be a "god" that would create someone who is incapable of believing in him because of the way he/she thinks, if the person has no control over the way he/she thinks? This "god" would be condemning people to "hell" from the very start. And I don't know about all of you, but I think that is just the pits.

I'd like to hear any possible feedback. Because, if this doesn't really make any sense and someone can prove me wrong than I probably need to know about about.

Thanks,
Dave

[Kurieuo]

But, if you think about it we have no control over the way we think. From birth you are only supplied with certain genetics and a certain environment that determine the way you think.

So you're saying its all genetics? Determinism is something bound to a Naturalist or Physicalist philosophy, but not necessarily a Christian. Now anyone can state their opinion, but can you back yours with philosophical arguments or Science?

Something to think about is whether our justice system is really one of justice if people condemned by it are innocent of their own actions. Surely all who have been condemned for rape, murder, theft, and so forth are just as much victims of their body as any persons affected by their crime. Surely you are not going to such lengths as to dismiss our libertarian freedom? If not, then I do not see any problem.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

Do you actually believe that the way we think is not determined by genetics and the environment we were raised in? If that weren't true than wouldn't we all think the same way? Which I know is not true because there are people capable of rape but I am not. I am not saying that anybody who rapes or murders somebody should be let off the hook. We are living in a society which has to have rules. I think there are 2 parts to people. 1 part being the person living in society and having relationships with other people. The other part is possibly your sole or something that I can't really put a name to but that part of you is the part that can't be held accountable for the way you think. If you were born capable of murder how can that truly be your fault. But, I don't believe this theory can be applied to anything besides the existence of a heaven and hell because we are living in a society where people who harm each other and are detrimental to society need to be held accountable. But I can still understand that they didn't ask to be capable of murder or rape.

[Kurieuo]

Do you actually believe that the way we think is not determined by genetics and the environment we were raised in? If that weren't true than wouldn't we all think the same way? Which I know is not true because there are people capable of rape but I am not.

I also leave room for libertarian free will. For example, identical twins (same genes) may be raised in the same environment, but each are their own individual and make their own choices. One might end up being a killer, the other someone who dedicated their life to helping the poor. What reasons are there for this, unless we assume people are free to make decisions despite their predispositions.

I am not saying that anybody who rapes or murders somebody should be let off the hook. We are living in a society which has to have rules.

But if our actions are simply dictated by our genetics and environment, then how can "we" be responsible for our actions?

If you were born capable of murder how can that truly be your fault.

We are all capable of murder, yet most of us "choose" not to do so.

But, I don't believe this theory can be applied to anything besides the existence of a heaven and hell because we are living in a society where people who harm each other and are detrimental to society need to be held accountable. But I can still understand that they didn't ask to be capable of murder or rape.

So you believe people aren't responsible for their actions when it comes to God judging them, but are responsible for their actions when it comes to society because they can hurt others? Perhaps your words are just coming out wrong, but it looks to me as though you're just picking and choosing when people are and aren't responsible for no apparent reason.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

But if our actions are simply dictated by our genetics and environment, then how can "we" be responsible for our actions?

-I am saying that we aren't responsible for our choices. But the simple fact that nobody wants to be killed, we are going to try our best to keep people who murder others away from us. It sucks that they had no say in becoming someone capable of murder but they are still capable of murder. Ex. My fiance cheated on me a few weeks before we were going to get married. I was hurt by her in that situation. I'm not mad at her because that's just the kind of person she is. But, even though I am not mad at her I didn't keep her in my life because she still hurt me.

We are all capable of murder, yet most of us "choose" not to do so.

-Everyone is physically capable of murder yes, but I don't believe everyone is mentally capable of murder. If you murdered someone in your life than you were capable of it. If you didn't than you weren't. For instants, you could choose to turn right but the fact that you turned left and the reasoning behind your choice to turn left made you incapable of turning right at the point in time.

So you believe people aren't responsible for their actions when it comes to God judging them, but are responsible for their actions when it comes to society because they can hurt others? Perhaps your words are just coming out wrong, but it looks to me as though you're just picking and choosing when people are and aren't responsible for no apparent reason.

-Again, while I'm here on earth living, I don't want to be killed. So if there is someone out there running around killing people than I am going to want them to be locked up. It isn't their fault that they are harmful to other but that doesn't change the fact that they are harmful to others.

Again, I don't believe we are responsible for the choices we make but society will still hold us accountable for those choices. When you live in a society there has to be standards to deal with a whole bunch of people who think differently.

[Anonymous]

To sum up:

People don't make decisions without reasoning. If we did, we would be making senseless choices that would benefit no one. We would be running around like chickens with our heads cut off.

So what determines the way you reason with situations? The way you think. You have 2 options either it's genetics and your environment or a "god". What else are you left with. Either way it's not "you" that determines the way you think. We can't be born completely pure because we are born with certain genetics that are going to interpret things a certain way. And your environment helps with that also. So, if you don't believe in jesus because of the way you think than why would a "god" hold you accountable for that?

[Anonymous]

So what time is it in Australia?

[Kurieuo]

Please note, that your original problem with heaven and hell only arises if people have no choice (if everything is determined by their environment and body). As Christians largely disagree with determinism, and instead advocate libertarian freedom where everyone is ultimately responsible for their own decisions, then your original problem presents no problem to a Christian worldview.

That said, I could end now, but I still see some glaring inconsistencies within your position I wish to pick on.

I am saying that we aren't responsible for our choices. But the simple fact that nobody wants to be killed, we are going to try our best to keep people who murder others away from us. It sucks that they had no say in becoming someone capable of murder but they are still capable of murder. Ex. My fiance cheated on me a few weeks before we were going to get married. I was hurt by her in that situation. I'm not mad at her because that's just the kind of person she is. But, even though I am not mad at her I didn't keep her in my life because she still hurt me.

If this is true, then poor Hitler! Imagine what it would have been like for him to have killed all those people, yet he wasn't responsible and was just as much a victim of the atrocities he commited. And Mother Teresa, why on earth does she get praised for the love and kindness she showed to the poor and outcast? It was just luck she was born into a body and environment that determined her loving qualities! Surely, anyone must have to go to absurd lengths to maintain such a position. It goes against our rational intuition that people are responsible for their own actions.

-Everyone is physically capable of murder yes, but I don't believe everyone is mentally capable of murder. If you murdered someone in your life than you were capable of it. If you didn't than you weren't. For instants, you could choose to turn right but the fact that you turned left and the reasoning behind your choice to turn left made you incapable of turning right at the point in time.

By saying one is mentally capable of murder, it seems you have smuggled "us" and our freedom to choose into the equation. That is, you are saying everyone is physically capable of murder, but "we" (emphasis on "we") aren't all capable of carrying out murder. But, surely if our actions are guided by our physical body and environment, the mental has nothing to do with our actions? Thus, you have self-refuted your own belief that everything is determined by our physical bodies and environment.

Now you might try to turn back by taking the position that our mental capabilities to murder, are a product of our physical bodies. Yet, to do so then turns your statements into a contradiction. For if the mental part of us is really physical, then it makes no sense to say that everyone is physically capable of murder, but not mentally capable.

Again, while I'm here on earth living, I don't want to be killed. So if there is someone out there running around killing people than I am going to want them to be locked up. It isn't their fault that they are harmful to other but that doesn't change the fact that they are harmful to others.

Actually according to your on position that we are not responsible for our actions... "We" may want them to be locked up... but it is not possible that "our" wanting them to be locked up, could impact upon their being locked up, unless "we" were in some way responsible.

Again, I don't believe we are responsible for the choices we make but society will still hold us accountable for those choices. When you live in a society there has to be standards to deal with a whole bunch of people who think differently.

Ok, two inconsistencies I see here:

1) If we are not responsible for our choices, then why do you continue calling them choices?; and

2) If society holds us accountable for those choices (that aren't really our choices), and society is made up of people who also aren't responsible for their choices, then how can society hold anyone accountable? (for society would not be responsible for holding people accountable!)

There are many problems those who advocate a determinist position seem to run into, and you have run into a few here. Determinism is a philosophy that seems entirely inconsistent with how we live, and what we consider to be true. Thus, I would really encourage you (and give you an open invitation here) to embrace a philosophy based on libertarian freedom rather than determinism.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

-I will refrain from responding to your first statement because it would sound absurd to you.

By saying one is mentally capable of murder, it seems you have smuggled "us" and our freedom to choose into the equation. That is, you are saying everyone is physically capable of murder, but "we" (emphasis on "we") aren't all capable of carrying out murder. But, surely if our actions are guided by our physical body and environment, the mental has nothing to do with our actions? Thus, you have self-refuted your own belief that everything is determined by our physical bodies and environment.

Now you might try to turn back by taking the position that our mental capabilities to murder, are a product of our physical bodies. Yet, to do so then turns your statements into a contradiction. For if the mental part of us is really physical, then it makes no sense to say that everyone is physically capable of murder, but not mentally capable.

-I'm afraid you're missing my point. I probably shouldn't have said that we are physically capable of murder. I don't think you took it the way I meant it. What I'm saying is that we have the ability to make choices. If I wanted to go kill someone right now I could. What I'm saying is that we have no control over the reasoning behind the choices we make. Thus, if we choose to kill someone it is because of your reasoning that you made that choice.

Actually according to your on position that we are not responsible for our actions... "We" may want them to be locked up... but it is not possible that "our" wanting them to be locked up, could impact upon their being locked up, unless "we" were in some way responsible.

-Saying that we want them to be locked up in no way concedes that some how because of that want we are responsible for our choices. Our wants and goals in life are all determined by the way we think and I don't believe we have control over the way we think.

1) If we are not responsible for our choices, then why do you continue calling them choices?; and

2) If society holds us accountable for those choices (that aren't really our choices), and society is made up of people who also aren't responsible for their choices, then how can society hold anyone accountable? (for society would not be responsible for holding people accountable!)

-Unless I get the word out to everyone on earth that we aren't responsible for our actions and they all go along with me than society will always hold us accountable because they, and you, think we do have control over them. Just because I have realized that the reasoning behind the choices I take I have no control over, it doesn't mean I can all of the sudden change the way all of society works. Unless I turn out to be your antichrist. Which is probably not true because that seems like it would require a lot of ambition.

Also, I have yet to see any problems I have run in to other than poor choice of words.

[Mastermind]

Bassman, I understand your position perfectly. You don't believe we make choices, but it doesn't matter to you because you want the law to protect the majority from the mental deficiencies of the few murderers, which is logical(better them than you in other words). What I don't like is that you take the assumption that our actions are predetermined as the most logical. Your assumptions come due to lack of belief in a higher power. Ours come from it. I believe that God decreed everything, including Good and Evil, and I believe in free will. To you, Good and Evil would be relative, and believe our actions are the result of chemical reactions in the brain. The difficulty comes when figuring out which one of these is more logical. To you, your choice seems logical. To me, mine seems logical. Seeing how there is no way for either of us to prove our point, and how you brought no evidence to prove your point (psychology and neural biology are borderline pathetic when it comes to understanding the brain and the mind, so I wouldn't really expect you to actually have any evidence) other than your opinion, I believe it is safe to say that we each walk our own path, and that this discussion isn't really about free will, but rather whether God exists, and if He does, whether He gave us free will or not, as this is the core difference that makes us take opposing views in this particular discussion.

[Prodigal Son]

i can understand that you must have gone through alot of pain when you were betrayed by your fiancee, but the reasoning that you're using in an attempt to accept/understand this person's actions and that pain is flawed. people are completely responsible for their actions (excluding brain damaged, retarded, and the like).

also, i hate to burst your bubble, but you are not a unique or novel thinker. there are many people who are skeptics and who like to question, many christians for that matter. if you don't believe in God, it is by your choice, not because you are incapable of doing so. there is plenty of proof if you want to search for it.

and your fiancee, she didn't ditch you because "that's just the way she is", she made the choice to do it and it was definately under her control.

[RGeeB]

Bassman, the Bible identifies the condition you have described. It calls it as being 'slaves to sin'. What happens after a person becomes a Christian is that he is freeded from this slavery. He is free not to act upon his desires and make the choices (some of which you have identified as being detrimental to society). Christians also believe that God helps them in this effort and ultimately will take away the adverse desires.

Why is this all necessary? Once you know that you have the freedom to make choices, then you should know that you will ultimately have to be accountable for them.

[Anonymous]

You know bassman, it doesn't make any sense to use logic, reason, and common sense to try and analyze what's going on in the world. You should really just take the Bible's word for it.

Just Kidding

I have been a devout methodist for about 17 years and I am very involved in my church. I play guitar and sing in the praise band. When I read your post it blew me away. I started reading it and at first I was saddened because I thought you were just someone who was lost. Then what you were talking about made so much sense. I've never looked at it like that before. I don't understand how anyone could read this and not completely agree with it. There is completely unrefutale facts in what you said. These other people's sound really brain washed, it's a little scary. I am glad I have control over my own brain. I also think that a lot of people need to believe in Jesus and Heaven and Hell to help them accept death. It can be a scary thing. But you can't blame them for that.

Although, you've changed my way of thinking about things I will probably still attend church because I believe it is a good moral influence on me (because my environment shapes how I think , that is) But I don't know that I am going to witness to people anymore because all of this time I have been preaching something that seems ridiculous now that I look at it with common sense.

Thanx,
John

[Kurieuo]

I do detect sarcasm here, and wonder who on earth you're replying to... Also was the "just kidding" part overlooked?

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

kurieuo,

I didn't mean for there to be any sarcasm. I was actually quite genuine in my response. I find it hard to find any fault in bassman's statements or "determinism" I guess it is called. I have trouble understanding how someone like yourself can seem somewhat intelignet and yet not be able to wrap your head around determinism. It's undeniable. I don't mean to come off as rude. I have just been blown away is all.

Thanks,
John