Creation equal to Creator?

[monotheist]

@[Canuckster1127]:

You're right, i'm not a JW.

Isn't this the true Greek translation of John 1:1?:

᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Tell me, did i translate it correctly, word for word?:

In (᾿Εν) begining (ἀρχῇ) was (ἦν) the (ὁ) Word (Λόγος), and (και) the (̀ὁ) Word (Λόγος) was (ἦν) with (πρὸς) the (τὸν) God (Θεόν), and (καὶ) God (Θεὸς ) was (ἦν) the (ὁ) Word (Λόγος).

If so, then tell me the difference between "the God" (τὸν Θεόν), and "God" (Θεὸς). Why is it that one "God" has "τὸν", but the other one doesn't? Could it be that they're both different? I've looked at other names, throughout the Bible, and i've found "τὸν" before them.

But, um, tell me, am i well equipped? I may have no degree in Biblical scriptures, but I'd like to think i'm well equipped. But, i guess it's not up to me to decide.

There is no place in Scripture that says Jesus cannot be God.

Actually, whenever God said there is no other god or savior, besides Him, are a lot of examples (Ex 20:3, Ex 34:14, De 5:7, 2Ki 17:38, Ps 81:9 Isa 45:22, Isa 46:9, Isa 43:11, Isa 45:21). Also, the idolatry commandment.

Btw, tell me, how should the trinity be explained?

As for Acts 4:12, I'll take YLT. :9 But, no need for the Greek here. Acts 4:12 says there's no other savior on earth, besides Christ Jesus, right? Well, good thing i'm not one that looks for a Savior that's on the earth, or one that was on the earth (literally), anymore at least. Tell me, am i not saved if i dont look for one that is on the earth, or one that was on the earth?

But, i'm well aware of what the Apostles taught. I'm just saying, most of it is wrong. Glad we're discussing them. xD

Oh, i love those verses from Isaiah! The "LORD", isnt that the word that the Bible uses in place of "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or whatever, not "Jesus"? Why should i believe they were talking about Jesus, when it's clear they were talking about God ("Jehovah", "Yahweh", or whatever)? I guess this is where you answer, "Jesus is God"?

___________________________

@[August]:

Hi,

What proof do you have that this is athe best tranlsation?

Please, relate to the Greek/English translation in the response to Canuckster1127.

But, um, why didn't you include the rest of the Greek translation, in your post?

since it says that Jesus was "a god", implying many gods.

How does a singularity imply a plurality? It's a god, not many gods. O_o Was Jesus more than one god?

I asked how God saves you

Very well, let me explain it further. Like everyone, we have to believe that God exists. I guess you could call that faith. Afterwards, we become aware of sins in general, and of the sins we commit(ed). We know we cant enter Heaven (paradise) unless we are forgiven of our sins. God is willing to forgive and forget, so long as you repent sincerely. You ask for His help, and He'll help you. Then, I guess this is where deeds come in. Faith + deeds is a must. Faith - deeds is dead (James 2:14-26). This good enough? I'm pretty sure i didn't have to tell you most of this stuff.

Doesn't Christianity teach that you're saved by faith alone?

How do you know what you read is true, and what is not?

I thought i did a good job in answering your question. Many of the things that were banned from the Bible are my sources. Muslims believe in several things that were banned from the Bible because it supports their beliefs. Like i said, how can two things be wrong about something? If everything outside the Bible is considered wrong, then how can the similarities be wrong, as well? Or is it not really everything? Are the similarities the only exception? Or do those not even count? All similarities, i have considered to be 100% true. This is why i lean towards the religion, Islam.

Well, don't keep us in suspense, explain why you say that.

I'll give you a hint, "And he is not served by human hands". Still nothing? Are you gonna use this: "as if he needed anything", against me? Cause that wont work either; Jesus did get hungry (Luke 4:2), and not just that.

What characteristics would Jesus have to exhibit to demonstrate that He is God, and how could we know that?

Well, you can start by eliminating the fact that Jesus is creation. Once you can prove that Jesus is not creation, then we'll continue the discussion on this.

I believe God told us not to make idols of things. I don't believe there was an exception if you were to do that with a prophet.

__________________________

If i failed to answer anything, tell me.

[B. W.]

\Isn't this the true Greek translation of John 1:1?:

᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Tell me, did i translate it correctly, word for word?:

In (᾿Εν) begining (ἀρχῇ) was (ἦν) the (ὁ) Word (Λόγος), and (και) the (̀ὁ) Word (Λόγος) was (ἦν) with (πρὸς) the (τὸν) God (Θεόν), and (καὶ) God (Θεὸς ) was (ἦν) the (ὁ) Word (Λόγος).

If so, then tell me the difference between "the God" (τὸν Θεόν), and "God" (Θεὸς). Why is it that one "God" has "τὸν", but the other one doesn't? Could it be that they're both different? I've looked at other names, throughout the Bible, and i've found "τὸν" before them.

If i failed to answer anything, tell me.

First off, your translation of passage is way off. I am glad that you admit to a limited knowledge of Greek. You err of the use of τὸν Θεόν. For example, ἦν — the - is the word commonly used to translate 'THE' in English.

Τὸν denotes relationship. It is used in Matthew 1: 2 as an example of this and how the word Tov is correctly used. In other words it means to come forth from or simply be a part of. You cannot translate it as 'the' as this violates basic rules of grammar.

“In beginning was the Word and the Word was with (of, directly related too) God and God was the Word.”

As you can see — God was the Word and in verse 18 - Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακε πώποτε· μονογενὴς υἱὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. “No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.” CEV


Verse 18 is in context of verse 14 — Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας. [The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him all the kindness and all the truth of God have come down to us.] CEV

Verse 14 is in context of Verse one. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” KJV

Too bad you do not understand basic Greek grammar.

Next point, you claim to have been a Christian. From your writing so far in explaining your view of Christianity, I can see that you were never really a Christian, nor have you actually experienced Christ. What denomination or school of Christianity were you involved with? Do you have any idea what it really means to be born again?
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[August]

I asked how God saves you

Very well, let me explain it further. Like everyone, we have to believe that God exists. I guess you could call that faith. Afterwards, we become aware of sins in general, and of the sins we commit(ed). We know we cant enter Heaven (paradise) unless we are forgiven of our sins. God is willing to forgive and forget, so long as you repent sincerely. You ask for His help, and He'll help you. Then, I guess this is where deeds come in. Faith + deeds is a must. Faith - deeds is dead (James 2:14-26). This good enough? I'm pretty sure i didn't have to tell you most of this stuff.

Doesn't Christianity teach that you're saved by faith alone?

Demons and Satan also believe that God exists, are they saved? How do you "become aware of sins in general" and "the sins we committed"? How do you know that you have sinned? How do you know " God is willing to forgive and forget, as long as you repent sincerely"?

Your take on James is completely wrong too. Deeds here are not unto salvation, but as proof of a regenerated spirit, the result of having faith, which include the fruits produced out of a shared Godly love. You can never be saved by works of any kind. If it is your contention that you are, then I hope you are completely holding down the Judiac (and Islamic) laws, since even if you repent, if you persevere in your sin (i.e. commit the sin that you repented of again), you will not be saved.

"Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

This is where you have to understand the death of Christ, and that he died on your behalf. God is the only one that can sufficiently atone for your sins, since all men are imperfect in a state of sin. To accomplish that, God took on a human form, died and went to hell, and then won the victory over death, all on your (and my) behalf. That is what Christians have faith in, and it is clear that men have no role in that, other than to believe it and accept it, and to thank and glorify God for His great sacrifice. He took on the role of the servant, He became the least out of His endless love, so that we may share eternal life with Him. We glorify God by submitting to His spirit, which shows us our sin. In submitting to God, our nature changes through the process of sanctification until we too, when we die, are finally made perfect and conform to the image of what God had in mind for His creation before our fall into sin.

None of that would be possible if it was down to our own fallen human nature to repent out of our own, keep the laws out of our own and somehow having the will to serve God. Transgression demands punishment, and Jesus took the punishment for us, out of love.

All of your objections and denials do not change that. You are denying God by denying Christ. I urge you to take a step back and deny yourself before God, and accept His great gift, His sacrifice on your behalf.

We can continue to play games with back and forth posts, but the Gospel message is the bottom line here. Pray to God to show you the truth.

[FFC]

Demons and Satan also believe that God exists, are they saved? How do you "become aware of sins in general" and "the sins we committed"? How do you know that you have sinned? How do you know " God is willing to forgive and forget, as long as you repent sincerely"?

Your take on James is completely wrong too. Deeds here are not unto salvation, but as proof of a regenerated spirit, the result of having faith, which include the fruits produced out of a shared Godly love. You can never be saved by works of any kind. If it is your contention that you are, then I hope you are completely holding down the Judiac (and Islamic) laws, since even if you repent, if you persevere in your sin (i.e. commit the sin that you repented of again), you will not be saved.

"Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

This is where you have to understand the death of Christ, and that he died on your behalf. God is the only one that can sufficiently atone for your sins, since all men are imperfect in a state of sin. To accomplish that, God took on a human form, died and went to hell, and then won the victory over death, all on your (and my) behalf. That is what Christians have faith in, and it is clear that men have no role in that, other than to believe it and accept it, and to thank and glorify God for His great sacrifice. He took on the role of the servant, He became the least out of His endless love, so that we may share eternal life with Him. We glorify God by submitting to His spirit, which shows us our sin. In submitting to God, our nature changes through the process of sanctification until we too, when we die, are finally made perfect and conform to the image of what God had in mind for His creation before our fall into sin.

None of that would be possible if it was down to our own fallen human nature to repent out of our own, keep the laws out of our own and somehow having the will to serve God. Transgression demands punishment, and Jesus took the punishment for us, out of love.

All of your objections and denials do not change that. You are denying God by denying Christ. I urge you to take a step back and deny yourself before God, and accept His great gift, His sacrifice on your behalf.

We can continue to play games with back and forth posts, but the Gospel message is the bottom line here. Pray to God to show you the truth.

Amen, August, that's what I'm talking about! . You go!!

Preacing of the cross to those who perish is foolishness.

[monotheist]

@[B. W.]:

Hi,

“In beginning was the Word and the Word was with (of, directly related too) God and God was the Word.”

By providing me with this, you've shown me what i already knew, that the second "God" isn't directly related to God Himself.

[1]Next point, you claim to have been a Christian. From your writing so far in explaining your view of Christianity, [2]I can see that you were never really a Christian, nor have you actually experienced Christ. [3]What denomination or school of Christianity were you involved with? [4]Do you have any idea what it really means to be born again?

[1]I wish you wouldn't imply that i was lying. Indeed, we all assume too much, don't we? Indeed, i wish i could be explicit always, same with others. But, here's FYI, i was raised a Christian for 19+ years. Yes, i've been to church. [2]You're right, i never really did experience Christ. What i did experience, however, was God. He hid in the name of Christ, but i couldn't realise it until afterwards, it was never really Jesus that hid himself in there. [3]I wasn't involved in any school of Christianity, i guess you can thank God for that. [4]Yes, doesnt that mean be born spiritually? If not, then i've must've gotten the wrong message when i read that. But, tell me, where does becoming like a child come in? Can you explain that parable? Or must i?

___________________________

@[August]:

Hi,

[1]Demons and Satan also believe that God exists, are they saved? [2]How do you "become aware of sins in general" and "the sins we committed"? [3]How do you know that you have sinned? [4]How do you know " God is willing to forgive and forget, as long as you repent sincerely"?

[1]No, cause they don't wanna repent.
[2]Well, God tells you.
[3]This relates to [2].
[4]I thought i had already explained this when i said, "God is Most Merciful".

[1]You can never be saved by works of any kind. [2]If it is your contention that you are, then I hope you are completely holding down the Judiac (and Islamic) laws, since even if you repent, if you persevere in your sin (i.e. commit the sin that you repented of again), you will not be saved.

[1]Well, you gotta have something to show for.
[2]Indeed, some sins can't be forgiven. But, it all depends on whether or not you sinned intentionally, doesn't it?

[1]This is where you have to understand the death of Christ, and that he died on your behalf. [2]God is the only one that can sufficiently atone for your sins, since all men are imperfect in a state of sin. [3]To accomplish that, God took on a human form, died and went to hell, and then won the victory over death, all on your (and my) behalf. That is what Christians have faith in, and it is clear that men have no role in that, other than to believe it and accept it, and to thank and glorify God for His great sacrifice. He took on the role of the servant, He became the least out of His endless love, so that we may share eternal life with Him. [4]We glorify God by submitting to His spirit, which shows us our sin. In submitting to God, our nature changes through the process of sanctification until we too, when we die, are finally made perfect and conform to the image of what God had in mind for His creation before our fall into sin.

[1]You're mistaken, Christ Jesus didn't die. He was taken up before then. It was Judas that was crucified in place of Jesus. He had to pay for betraying Jesus. So God turned Judas's image into Jesus's. This is why Roman authorities thought "Jesus" was mad. That's why Pilate had sympathy. This is why "Jesus" said, "Why do you forsake me?!". But, you wouldn't know all this would you?
[2]You're right, God is the only one. But, you forget, other people's sins don't affect others. This is where "original sin" is a lie. You aren't a sinner until you commit sin, not just cause you were born into the world.
[3]Are you implying that God is limited? God can't even fit in Heaven, how is it that He can fit in a Human body? By the way, do you have Biblical proof that God went to hell for 3 days? Or are you guessing?
[4]Tell me, do you glorify God by doing what He wanted you to do from the begining? Or are you using illusions to deny His laws?
[-]This entire quote is blasphemous.

[1]None of that would be possible if it was down to our own fallen human nature to repent out of our own, keep the laws out of our own and somehow having the will to serve God. [2]Transgression demands punishment, and Jesus took the punishment for us, out of love.

[1]No, you were just taught that. Many people are saved, no matter whether they're a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim, and [maybe] others.
[2]Indeed transgressions deserves punishment, but Jesus didn't take any punishment. He had no reason to. I hear many Christians say that, all sins of the world were nailed to the cross with Jesus. If that's so, then why did he go through all that scourging, and spitting, and whipping, and beating? Wasn't the sins of the world attached to him afterwards? So, wouldn't it seem logical that Judas was actually the one that got crucified, not Jesus? Judas had betrayed Jesus, so he deserved punishment.

All of your objections and denials do not change that. You are denying God by denying Christ. I urge you to take a step back and deny yourself before God, and accept His great gift, His sacrifice on your behalf.

Do you mind not telling me what i do? Thanks. I'm aware of what i do. I did not deny God. I did not deny the real Jesus. I did accept this "gift" when i was a Christian, but after God showed me the truth, i repented for ever doing such a thing. I hope God can forgive me for considering Jesus over God.

We can continue to play games with back and forth posts, but the Gospel message is the bottom line here. Pray to God to show you the truth.

You're right, we could. But, i wish we'd cut down the playing. I didn't come here to play. But, you seem to only have the corrupted Gospel. I can't remember whether i prayed for God to show me the truth, but i'm well aware that my girlfriend did. Thus, i found it, so i'm trying to tell it to you. But, you reject it, cause you don't believe. You say you have faith, but you follow what people tell you, rather than what God tells you. I just don't want you guys/gals to see the truth in the last day. You have the rest of your life to repent, so i'd advise you do so.

___________________________

If i didn't answer anything, tell me.

[Canuckster1127]

Monotheist,

You continue to make claims but provide no evidence, scripturally or otherwise for those claims. What authority do you base your claims upon? Do you have a website you are utilizing? We are very upfront and clear here about our reliance upon the Bible and you have been given clear answers from the Bible that refute your claims. Obviously you do not accept the Bible or only accept those elements that you find convenient. Why not have the intellectual integrity to be as upfront about the source of your claims as we are in giving you answers to your questions or claims?

The claims you are making are not new. They have been made in Islam, Gnosticism and old heresies that Christianity rejected a long time ago.

The bottom line is, truth is spiritually discerned and by your own admission your experience with the Church was more in the form of religious behavior.

The core of true Christianity has very little to do with "religion." It is first and foremost a relationship with Jesus Christ on a personal level. It begins often with asking God to reveal himself to you and then seeking God with an open heart and open mind.

I'm sorry you found your experience in the past with the Church to be less that what you wanted it to be. I understand that. I've been disappointed and let down by Christians and by the Church many times. That's why I've decided that those are not worthy objects of faith in my life. I've found Jesus Christ is worthy and that the Bible is true. I've been fortunate that I have been able to learn more than the average person about the Bible in terms of its language and history and frankly I've wrestled and still do with issues where there appear to be contradictions and difficulties.

I've found however that Jesus Christ himself doesn't change and that He has met every challenge in my life and conquered my doubts and fears.

I think you've rightly concluded that a religious system was not the answer for you based on your past experiences. Why would you want to go onto another such system that does not offer you what a personal relationship with Jesus Christ does?

I am praying for you. You can continue to argue if you wish and I'll do my best to give you answers. There is little point however if we do not agree upon what is authoritative and can be trusted. If you truly want there to be a dialogue then you must do more than disagree and throw out your beliefs. You must defend yours and show how they are better top the same degree that you are asking of us here.

I hope you'll chose to explore more the difference between religion and relationship however. It makes all the difference in the world.

Bart

[B. W.]

I asked how God saves you

Very well, let me explain it further. Like everyone, we have to believe that God exists. I guess you could call that faith. Afterwards, we become aware of sins in general, and of the sins we commit(ed). We know we cant enter Heaven (paradise) unless we are forgiven of our sins. God is willing to forgive and forget, so long as you repent sincerely. You ask for His help, and He'll help you. Then, I guess this is where deeds come in. Faith + deeds is a must. Faith - deeds is dead (James 2:14-26). This good enough? I'm pretty sure i didn't have to tell you most of this stuff.

Doesn't Christianity teach that you're saved by faith alone?

Demons and Satan also believe that God exists, are they saved? How do you "become aware of sins in general" and "the sins we committed"? How do you know that you have sinned? How do you know " God is willing to forgive and forget, as long as you repent sincerely"?

Your take on James is completely wrong too. Deeds here are not unto salvation, but as proof of a regenerated spirit, the result of having faith, which include the fruits produced out of a shared Godly love. You can never be saved by works of any kind. If it is your contention that you are, then I hope you are completely holding down the Judiac (and Islamic) laws, since even if you repent, if you persevere in your sin (i.e. commit the sin that you repented of again), you will not be saved.

"Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

This is where you have to understand the death of Christ, and that he died on your behalf. God is the only one that can sufficiently atone for your sins, since all men are imperfect in a state of sin. To accomplish that, God took on a human form, died and went to hell, and then won the victory over death, all on your (and my) behalf. That is what Christians have faith in, and it is clear that men have no role in that, other than to believe it and accept it, and to thank and glorify God for His great sacrifice. He took on the role of the servant, He became the least out of His endless love, so that we may share eternal life with Him. We glorify God by submitting to His spirit, which shows us our sin. In submitting to God, our nature changes through the process of sanctification until we too, when we die, are finally made perfect and conform to the image of what God had in mind for His creation before our fall into sin.

None of that would be possible if it was down to our own fallen human nature to repent out of our own, keep the laws out of our own and somehow having the will to serve God. Transgression demands punishment, and Jesus took the punishment for us, out of love.

All of your objections and denials do not change that. You are denying God by denying Christ. I urge you to take a step back and deny yourself before God, and accept His great gift, His sacrifice on your behalf.

We can continue to play games with back and forth posts, but the Gospel message is the bottom line here. Pray to God to show you the truth.

Warning Comment Below is Hard Hitting and may offend some:

Regarding Salvation and Islam...

Islam has no assurance of salvation. Mohamed was not assured of salvation. According to Islam, a child molester can enter heaven due solely of Allah's will while the most ardent and fervent obedient Muslim could be sent to Hell — due solely of the will of Allah's arbitrary selection, either for temporary punishment or eternal, as Allah wills.

Islam has no assurance of everlasting eternal salvation; no matter how hard ones work's at it. Monotheist, why would you toss away God's assurance of salvation in exchange for a religion that offers no hope, and only demands blind obedience, and no assurance for that obedience?

Next, as a Muslim — Monotheist, why do you bother to proselytize? Hell is not eternal to Islam and according to Islam those classed as non-Muslims will only experience a temporary punishment in Hell and enjoy Heaven all in accord to Allah's will. However, only those like Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham will be damned to an eternal Hell according to the Islamic Forums cited as well as the majority of Islamic scholars so also cite.

Therefore, why bother to proselytize since there is nothing preventing the majority to enter Heaven. Why cannot Islam just live and let live instead of coerced conversions, endless prayer rituals, and no lasting acts of mercy of grace? Forgive me of my rudeness but where was the Red Crescent on 911? Where are they when there own suffer from natural disasters like earth quakes and floods? What countries send the most aid? Not Islamic.

Why are Islamic countries the most oppressive on earth? Compare John 1:14 with the teachings of Islam:

John 1:14 “The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him all the Grace, kindness, and all the truth of God have come down to us.” CEV

The One God we serve reveled Himself with Grace, Kindness, Mercy, Love, and reveals the Truth about God. Islam's God is wrathful, war like, oppressive, arbitrary, demanding, and it offers no assurance of salvation: Truly, a tree in known by its fruit. If you were at one time really a Christian, Monotheist why would you have sold out to Islam?

Next, Islam is guilty of great psychological Idolatry in its service toward Mohamed. You cannot point out his errors, nor even draw a cartoon of him, without a death threat leveled at you. That is the worst form of Idolatry there is. Next form of Idolatry is the Koran itself, held with such Idolatric notions of holiness that to even question it, is cause for the death penalty.

In comparison to Christianity, You can put a Crucifix in a jar of urine and call it art, Christians forgive. You can print cartoons mocking Jesus and our faith, Christians forgive. Mock Mohamed and the Koran, people die. So, please do not tell me Islam is not guilty of Idolatry in its service to the Koran and Mohamed.

It is not too late to become Born Again and find the One Living God of the Bible and discover that unique personal one on one relationship Christians have with the True One God. Will you come to Christ and discover the true light before it is too late?

Monotheist, with all due respect, you really do not know what Christians believe about God, the doctrine of the Trinity, and How God sovereignly chooses to reveal His unchanging nature, attributes, and character to humanity.
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[Canuckster1127]

@[Canuckster1127]:

You're right, i'm not a JW.

Isn't this the true Greek translation of John 1:1?:

᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Tell me, did i translate it correctly, word for word?:

In (᾿Εν) begining (ἀρχῇ) was (ἦν) the (ὁ) Word (Λόγος), and (και) the (̀ὁ) Word (Λόγος) was (ἦν) with (πρὸς) the (τὸν) God (Θεόν), and (καὶ) God (Θεὸς ) was (ἦν) the (ὁ) Word (Λόγος).

If so, then tell me the difference between "the God" (τὸν Θεόν), and "God" (Θεὸς). Why is it that one "God" has "τὸν", but the other one doesn't? Could it be that they're both different? I've looked at other names, throughout the Bible, and i've found "τὸν" before them.

But, um, tell me, am i well equipped? I may have no degree in Biblical scriptures, but I'd like to think i'm well equipped. But, i guess it's not up to me to decide.

There is no place in Scripture that says Jesus cannot be God.

Actually, whenever God said there is no other god or savior, besides Him, are a lot of examples (Ex 20:3, Ex 34:14, De 5:7, 2Ki 17:38, Ps 81:9 Isa 45:22, Isa 46:9, Isa 43:11, Isa 45:21). Also, the idolatry commandment.

Btw, tell me, how should the trinity be explained?

As for Acts 4:12, I'll take YLT. :9 But, no need for the Greek here. Acts 4:12 says there's no other savior on earth, besides Christ Jesus, right? Well, good thing i'm not one that looks for a Savior that's on the earth, or one that was on the earth (literally), anymore at least. Tell me, am i not saved if i dont look for one that is on the earth, or one that was on the earth?

But, i'm well aware of what the Apostles taught. I'm just saying, most of it is wrong. Glad we're discussing them. xD

Oh, i love those verses from Isaiah! The "LORD", isnt that the word that the Bible uses in place of "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or whatever, not "Jesus"? Why should i believe they were talking about Jesus, when it's clear they were talking about God ("Jehovah", "Yahweh", or whatever)? I guess this is where you answer, "Jesus is God"?

Monotheist,

"tov" is a definite article. It is used in John 1:1 in a grammatically consistent manner. "The God" in fact makes the claim stronger in that "The Word" (logos in Greek) are one and the same. It is consistent when using the vern to be, that the same case and form (in this case the nominative, be used in favor of the objective form.)

You seem to not have a very strong grasp of what the Trinity is which is a little surprising in one who claims to have been associated with a Church for 19 years.

Just because you spend a night sleeping a garage, doesn't make you a car I guess.

The Trinity does not deny in any way the oneness of God. There certainly is an element of mystery to it, but it is clearly shown in both the Old and the New Testament by God the Father, the Son and God the Holy Spirit sharing attributes that are God's alone and involved in tasks that are described as attributable to God alone, such as what we've been looking at in the passage from John.

Jesus' presence on the earth does not make God's omnipresence any less. Phillipians 2:1-11 makes it clear that Jesus did not diminish his Diety in any fashion when He came to us in human form. He voluntarily set aside much that He had a right to, in order to relate to us on a human level so that we could understand. In that sense, he emptied Himself of those rights voluntarily. He never ceased at any time to be anything less than God Himself.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/A ... _brief.htm gives some very clear and direct answers to the issue of the trinity specifically designed to answer Muslims in this regard. I challenge you to read it, if for no other reason than to understand what the Trinity means and how it does not deny in anyway the oneness of God.

If you're going to be effective in communicating with someone in this type of forum, you really should make the effort to understand what they mean when they use terms instead of just repeating over and over again what you think they mean.

I'd like to understand what your saying in that regard, but of course, I can't do that until you stop speaking past the questions that have been asked of you and you tell us what the source of your beliefs is.

[Byblos]

We can continue to play games with back and forth posts, but the Gospel message is the bottom line here. Pray to God to show you the truth.

You're right, we could. But, i wish we'd cut down the playing. I didn't come here to play. But, you seem to only have the corrupted Gospel. I can't remember whether i prayed for God to show me the truth, but i'm well aware that my girlfriend did. Thus, i found it, so i'm trying to tell it to you. But, you reject it, cause you don't believe. You say you have faith, but you follow what people tell you, rather than what God tells you. I just don't want you guys/gals to see the truth in the last day. You have the rest of your life to repent, so i'd advise you do so. If i didn't answer anything, tell me.

You have been lied to and you have been deceived. You have been led away from the truth by the devil and so was your girlfriend; God had nothing to do with it.

You claim a corrupted Gospel as proof yet you only quote from the JW's bible. Yes, we agree with you; the JW's gospel is certainly corrupt and that is why we reject it. You say Jesus didn't die on the cross, Judas did yet you offer zero evidence to back up your claims (other than the gospel we both agree is corrupted).

God is calling your name, Monotheist. God wants to welcome you home with open arms. That's why God sent his only begotten son to tell you the good news but you're not hearing him. He wants you to understand that He knows what you're going through and wants you to have a close and personal relationship with him. God's telling you, Monotheist, that no matter how hard you try, you're only human and weak and prone to sin and He undestands that. That's why he gave you another chance at salvation, thru his son Jesus Christ. You put your trust in him and he will guide you through life. The Holy Spirit will assist you in walking through life's difficulties. God's telling you you do not have to do it alone. He will walk with you side-by-side, hand-in-hand. Islam does not offer you that as you do not matter as an individual. You, as a person, matter to God and He wants you saved. He's calling you by name. You need only put your faith in Christ. He wants to tell you your spot in heaven is reserved for you (minus the 70 virgins and the rivers of milk and honey) only if you put your trust in his son. Jesus paid the price for your sins, Monotheist. Open your heart, not your ears nor your eyes. The truth is staring you in the face. How long will you deny it? Do not be blinded by the works of the devil. If your roots are christian as you claim then you have it in you to see the light again. No more darkness, Monotheist; God is calling you by name.

As for how to explain the trinity, here's something I wrote a while back on the subject (didn't bother with the link since it was my writing):

Quite often we try so hard to understand something that we literally make it much more complex than it really is. There's an odd-looking tree in my backyard that doesn't really look like one tree but 3. From the ground, you see 3 distinct trunks, each is about a foot to 2 feet from the other. Anyone looking at those trees they have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that they are 3 separate trees. Each one has its own branches, leaves, and its own character so-to-speak. I do know those trees have a common, fused root in the center underneath, though. Each one has its own roots on the periphery, but the roots are joined at the center so as to make all 3 one tree. Now of course, you will say well, since they have a common root then they can't be 3 separate trees but only one. And of course you would be right, but that's the whole point, even though they are 3 separate trees, they do converge and are in essence one tree. It's a simplistic analogy but I think it works quite effectively. I used it to explain the trinity to my 2 boys when they were five and they understood it perfectly. To this day they use the same analogy to explain it to others when asked.

[August]

Hi monotheist,

You are still denying the truth, and still you have not provided any basis for your assertions. We have all been very clear about the Biblical basis for our message, which is consistent, true and beyond reproach. Your criticisms and objections have no influence on the truth, there is only one truth and that is that Jesus died for our sins, and without that belief, you cannot be saved.

You, my friend, have an interesting dilemma. Even if you deny the deity of Christ, you cannot deny the clear Biblical instructions that you have to believe in His death and resurrection in order to be saved. Even the Q'uaran affirms the validity of scriptures that preceded it, if you wish to claim Q'uaranic infallibility.

@[August]:

Hi,

[1]Demons and Satan also believe that God exists, are they saved? [2]How do you "become aware of sins in general" and "the sins we committed"? [3]How do you know that you have sinned? [4]How do you know " God is willing to forgive and forget, as long as you repent sincerely"?

[1]No, cause they don't wanna repent.
[2]Well, God tells you.
[3]This relates to [2].
[4]I thought i had already explained this when i said, "God is Most Merciful".

What is your source for all of this? How does "God tell you"? How do you know God is "most merciful?"

[1]Well, you gotta have something to show for.
[2]Indeed, some sins can't be forgiven. But, it all depends on whether or not you sinned intentionally, doesn't it?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you wrote here. Am I to understand that you do not ever sin intentionally? What does that mean?

[1]You're mistaken, Christ Jesus didn't die. He was taken up before then. It was Judas that was crucified in place of Jesus. He had to pay for betraying Jesus. So God turned Judas's image into Jesus's. This is why Roman authorities thought "Jesus" was mad. That's why Pilate had sympathy. This is why "Jesus" said, "Why do you forsake me?!". But, you wouldn't know all this would you?

What I do know is that you seem to be quoting, as most Muslim apologists do, from the 16th century forgery, The Gospel of Barnabas, which is the only book making that claim. It has been thoroughly refuted though, it is a forgery. The writing style and content is nowhere close to any of the contemporary gospel accounts, the OT and NT quotes in that document is from the Latin Vulagte, which it is supposed to predate, Mary was never given the title of Virgin Mary before the 4th century yet it appears in the G.o.B.. I can continue, but it is clear that it is nothing but a shoddy forgery. Furthermore, we have very clear Scriptural evidence, both internally and externally consistent that Jesus was crucified, buried and rose from the dead, so that we may live.

[2]You're right, God is the only one. But, you forget, other people's sins don't affect others. This is where "original sin" is a lie. You aren't a sinner until you commit sin, not just cause you were born into the world.

The 10 commandments defeats your assertion here. The first 4 commandments are about sins against God, and the last 6 about sins against fellow men. This clearly shows that God commands us not to sin against Him nor each other, since our sins do affect each other, and is contrary to the love God commands us to have for each other, in the same way He loves us.

Can you name one human being who never sinned?

[3]Are you implying that God is limited? God can't even fit in Heaven, how is it that He can fit in a Human body? By the way, do you have Biblical proof that God went to hell for 3 days? Or are you guessing?

You are the one that implies God has limitations by saying He cannot manifest in human form should He wish to. He manifested as a burning bush, why not as a human? Why do you wish to limit God as to what he can and cannot do?

As for Jesus in hell, no guessing, but it does not make any difference to the doctrine of salvation. The references are: Acts 2:27, Romans 10:6-7, Ephesians 4:8-9, 1 Peter 3:18-20, and 1 Peter 4:6.

[4]Tell me, do you glorify God by doing what He wanted you to do from the begining? Or are you using illusions to deny His laws?

Illusions? What are you talking about? I told you straight from Scripture what we are required to do, if you are claiming this to be "illusions", then please provide some facts to back it up.

[-]This entire quote is blasphemous.

According to who or what? I'm afraid the only blasphemy here is your continued denial of the love and grace of God.

[1]No, you were just taught that. Many people are saved, no matter whether they're a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim, and [maybe] others.

It is not up to me to decide who will be saved or not, that is according to od's will alone. But I do know that God tells us what to do to be saved, and that is that no-one can be saved other than by faith in the Son of God, and His atonement and substitionary sacrifice on the cross. I already showed you Scripture to demonstrate that.

[2]Indeed transgressions deserves punishment, but Jesus didn't take any punishment.

Source?

He had no reason to. I hear many Christians say that, all sins of the world were nailed to the cross with Jesus. If that's so, then why did he go through all that scourging, and spitting, and whipping, and beating? Wasn't the sins of the world attached to him afterwards? So, wouldn't it seem logical that Judas was actually the one that got crucified, not Jesus? Judas had betrayed Jesus, so he deserved punishment.

This is all wild unsubstantiated speculation from unnamed sources. I stand amazed at the extent to which some will go to deny the simple truth. We have very clear, internally consistent and numerous narrative around the crucifixtion and it's purpose.

Do you mind not telling me what i do? Thanks. I'm aware of what i do. I did not deny God. I did not deny the real Jesus. I did accept this "gift" when i was a Christian, but after God showed me the truth, i repented for ever doing such a thing. I hope God can forgive me for considering Jesus over God.

How did God show you "the truth"? What did you repent of? Sorry, but you keep on denying God, and insulting His love and grace, and if you cannot bear to hear that truth, then so be it, but you still need to hear it. You cannot consider "Jesus over God", because Jesus is God.

You're right, we could. But, i wish we'd cut down the playing. I didn't come here to play.

Well then, why don't you start backing up your statements with some scholarship and facts, instead of just regurgitating every tired old muslim lie?

But, you seem to only have the corrupted Gospel.

I have asked you on a few occasions now to provide criteria by which you determine the validity of scriptures. If you assert that something is corrput, then you need to quote the standard. All you have come back with is some wishy-washy statement about "things that were banned from the Bible", and the so-called similarities between Islam and the Bible. Let me point out your very first mistake, the God of the Bible and the Allah of Islam are not the same God, yet you assume that. The charateristics of the two differ significantly. You further assume that the later document, the Q'uaran, has the deciding authority, when in fact it has very little historical or archeological support, with no original manuscripts, even for the Utman version. The Q'uaran is chockful of internal contradictions, external errors and contradictions of earlier revelations.

I have made my statements, and can support all of them with Scripture and exegesis. You do not seem willing or able to present scholarship or sources to back up your statements, neither do you display the intellectual honesty to engage in discussion. You seem to want to assert with circular reasoning only.

I am thankful for the opportunity to discuss this with you, and invite you to once again consider where you are in your spiritual life. I understand that we all seek, so please continue your journey. All I ask is that you ask God (not your girlfriend), for His wisdom and truth. Investigate thoroughly and hold on to the true gospel, that of salvation through Jesus alone.

[monotheist]

@[Canuckster1127]:

Hi,

You continue to make claims but provide no evidence, scripturally or otherwise for those claims. What authority do you base your claims upon? Do you have a website you are utilizing? We are very upfront and clear here about our reliance upon the Bible and you have been given clear answers from the Bible that refute your claims. Obviously you do not accept the Bible or only accept those elements that you find convenient. Why not have the intellectual integrity to be as upfront about the source of your claims as we are in giving you answers to your questions or claims?

The claims you are making are not new. They have been made in Islam, Gnosticism and old heresies that Christianity rejected a long time ago.

Since you know they're not new, then why do you ask where i get my sources? Is it that you read about it, but they didnt provide sources, as well? I have already mentioned where i got my sources. If you require some links, then here:
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/libr ... tents.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/
http://www.barnabas.net/
http://www.submission.org/quran/webqt.php

You may reject them now.

I'm not sure how you were able to come up with, that i had trouble in church. All i said is that i went to church. How can you make any assumptions from that?

It is first and foremost a relationship with Jesus Christ on a personal level.

I was not created to have a personal relationship with Christ Jesus. My relationship is with God, i dont need Jesus for that.

Why would you want to go onto another such system that does not offer you what a personal relationship with Jesus Christ does?

Read above this.

[1]If you truly want there to be a dialogue then you must do more than disagree and throw out your beliefs. [2]You must defend yours and show how they are better top the same degree that you are asking of us here.

[1]Likewise.
[2]I guess it'll be in the response for B.W.
But, i have to keep this within the Bible, don't i? If i go outside, it'll be rejected, or not considered. I've been trying to keep inside the Bible, but some things can't be helped.

_________________________

@[B.W.]:

Hi,

Islam has no assurance of salvation. Mohamed was not assured of salvation. According to Islam, a child molester can enter heaven due solely of Allah's will while the most ardent and fervent obedient Muslim could be sent to Hell — due solely of the will of Allah's arbitrary selection, either for temporary punishment or eternal, as Allah wills.

Islam has no assurance of everlasting eternal salvation; no matter how hard ones work's at it. Monotheist, why would you toss away God's assurance of salvation in exchange for a religion that offers no hope, and only demands blind obedience, and no assurance for that obedience?

Heh, wow, you make it sound like Islam is horrible. In defence of Islam, it only seems like it doesn't if you take it from a Christian point of view. But, according to Christianity, anyone that doesn't believe in Christ Jesus, as lord and savior, is doomed. Especially with this "original sin" thing that's going around. I feel sorry for all the babies that died for Christ Jesus, they never got a chance to know him. But, um, even in Christianity can a child molester enter Heaven. But, um, can you tell me where in the Qur'an does it say that even "the most ardent and fervent obedient Muslim could be sent to Hell"?

I didn't toss away God's assurance.

Next, as a Muslim — Monotheist, why do you bother to proselytize? Hell is not eternal to Islam and according to Islam those classed as non-Muslims will only experience a temporary punishment in Hell and enjoy Heaven all in accord to Allah's will. However, only those like Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham will be damned to an eternal Hell according to the Islamic Forums cited as well as the majority of Islamic scholars so also cite.

Therefore, why bother to proselytize since there is nothing preventing the majority to enter Heaven. [1]Why cannot Islam just live and let live instead of coerced conversions, endless prayer rituals, and no lasting acts of mercy of grace? [2]Forgive me of my rudeness but where was the Red Crescent on 911? Where are they when there own suffer from natural disasters like earth quakes and floods? [3]What countries send the most aid?

Actually, hell is eternal, in Islam. Many people will be in hell for all eternity, according to Islam. [1]Did you know the Qur'an tells Muslims to not try and convince others from their religion? [2]I forgive you, but i think you're asking the wrong person. Do Muslims have full control over the Red Cresent? Isn't that like a world-wide thing? [3]The rich ones?
But, um, it's a Muslim thing to give to money to those that need it whenever they receive some form of income, after taxes. Also, Muslims, have the ten commandments that the "People of the Book" have, though, i think Muslims have two extra.
But, to answer your question from the start, i bother cause i care.

The One God we serve reveled Himself with Grace, Kindness, Mercy, Love, and reveals the Truth about God. Islam's God is wrathful, war like, oppressive, arbitrary, demanding, and it offers no assurance of salvation: Truly, a tree in known by its fruit. If you were at one time really a Christian, Monotheist why would you have sold out to Islam?

Heh, well, i don't really like to talk about God's nature, but i'm sure He doesn't like evil-doers. Anyone who loves God is willing to do anything for Him, like, offer their son up for sacrifice. God loves those who do good. But, um, i didn't sell myself out to Islam. I'm still with God. Just, i no longer have to worship 2-3 things. I now worship God, the way He wanted me to from the very begining.

I think you have a misunderstanding of idolatry. Idolatry is worshiping other gods that is not God. Muslims don't worship the Qur'an or Muhammad. They defend it. Though, i will agree they can go a bit overboard. But, the Qur'an says not to sit around and watch others make fun of your beliefs, lest they'd change the subject.

I wouldn't mind going back into Christianity, so long as it reverts back to what it used to be. But, i don't see that happening anytime soon. Maybe i should make a Christian sect.

_________________________

@[Canuckster1127]:

Hi again,

"tov" is a definite article. It is used in John 1:1 in a grammatically consistent manner. "The God" in fact makes the claim stronger in that "The Word" (logos in Greek) are one and the same. It is consistent when using the vern to be, that the same case and form (in this case the nominative, be used in favor of the objective form.)

I just think if they're going to declare that Jesus is God, they could at least use "ton theos" for the second "God". Otherwise, i'ma have to declare "ton theos" as a noun, and "theos" as an adjective.

You seem to not have a very strong grasp of what the Trinity is which is a little surprising in one who claims to have been associated with a Church for 19 years.

You seem to be assuming more than what i give out. I said i was raised a Christian for 19 years, not that i was associated with a church for 19 years. I don't know how you get your stuff out of my words, but *shrugs*.

Well, i believe you've helped me understand the Trinity the way you want me to. However, this does not make me wanna return to Christianity. With the website you've given me, it says the Trinity came into existence by assumption. How many times have people erred by assumption? Infact, you'll see another example in quote of the next person .

But, i'ma quote the site on something:

This doctrine teaches that God exists in three persons who share the same essence or being. What this means is that God exists in the distinct and co-equal persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but they share a fully divine essence or being, such as uncreatedness, eternality, simplicity (non-composite or indivisible), immutability (unchangeableness), omniscience (all wise and knowing), omnipotence (all powerful), goodness, mercy, holiness, will and freedom, and so on.

They forgot omnipresence, but i'm not going to get into that now. There are things mentioned in this quote that Jesus isn't. First off, uncreatedness; Jesus was created (Mat 1:25, Lu 2:6-7). Next, eternality; Jesus did die, according to Christianity (Mat 27:50, Mar 15:37, Lu 23:46, Jo 19:30). Omnipotence; Jesus was not all-powerful (every miracle he "did"), after all he's human. Now, i'll bring in omnipresence; Jesus was not omnipresence ("Jesus sends out the twelve") -- saying that Jesus is on earth and God is in Heaven doesn't really help, cause if Jesus was truly God, he could be omnipresent no matter where he is.

If you're going to be effective in communicating with someone in this type of forum, you really should make the effort to understand what they mean when they use terms instead of just repeating over and over again what you think they mean.

I wouldn't have to repeat myself if i weren't asked questions that relate to previous things.

I'd like to understand what your saying in that regard, but of course, I can't do that until you stop speaking past the questions that have been asked of you and you tell us what the source of your beliefs is.

I feel like i'm gonna get an "i knew it" response.

_________________________

@[Byblos]:

Hi,

You have been lied to and you have been deceived. You have been led away from the truth by the devil and so was your girlfriend; God had nothing to do with it.

I really wish people would stop assuming so much. I think you need to apologize; my girlfriend is a Christian, FYI! But, i can't really see how God had nothing to do with it. Cause you see, when someone prays to God, and they believe that their prayer is going to be answered, and it is in God's faith, it shall happen. I hope you're not implying that my girlfriend prayed to the devil. I await your apology.

You claim a corrupted Gospel as proof yet you only quote from the JW's bible. Yes, we agree with you; the JW's gospel is certainly corrupt and that is why we reject it. You say Jesus didn't die on the cross, Judas did yet you offer zero evidence to back up your claims (other than the gospel we both agree is corrupted).

Well, if you would have waited a little while longer, instead of being impatient, you would have gotten proof.

God is calling your name, Monotheist. God wants to welcome you home with open arms. That's why God sent his only begotten son to tell you the good news but you're not hearing him. He wants you to understand that He knows what you're going through and wants you to have a close and personal relationship with him. God's telling you, Monotheist, that no matter how hard you try, you're only human and weak and prone to sin and He undestands that. That's why he gave you another chance at salvation, thru his son Jesus Christ. You put your trust in him and he will guide you through life. The Holy Spirit will assist you in walking through life's difficulties. God's telling you you do not have to do it alone. He will walk with you side-by-side, hand-in-hand. Islam does not offer you that as you do not matter as an individual. You, as a person, matter to God and He wants you saved. He's calling you by name. You need only put your faith in Christ. He wants to tell you your spot in heaven is reserved for you (minus the 70 virgins and the rivers of milk and honey) only if you put your trust in his son. Jesus paid the price for your sins, Monotheist. Open your heart, not your ears nor your eyes. The truth is staring you in the face. How long will you deny it? Do not be blinded by the works of the devil. If your roots are christian as you claim then you have it in you to see the light again. No more darkness, Monotheist; God is calling you by name.

Heh, i hear Him loud and clear, but He's not telling me everything that you mentioned in this quote.

_________________________

*sigh* Everytime i think i'm done typing out everything for one person, another person responds.

@[August]:

Hi,

[1]You are still denying the truth, [2]and still you have not provided any basis for your assertions. [3]We have all been very clear about the Biblical basis for our message, which is consistent, true and beyond reproach. [4]Your criticisms and objections have no influence on the truth, [5]there is only one truth and that is that Jesus died for our sins, and without that belief, you cannot be saved.

[1]No i'm not.
[2]Well, patience is virtue.
[3]I know ya'll have, in most cases.
[4]I know they don't.
[5]I'm well aware of what you believe to be true; it sounds a bit selfish, though.

You, my friend, have an interesting dilemma. [1]Even if you deny the deity of Christ, you cannot deny the clear Biblical instructions that you have to believe in His death and resurrection in order to be saved. [2]Even the Q'uaran affirms the validity of scriptures that preceded it, if you wish to claim Q'uaranic infallibility.

[1]I'm well aware of what the Biblical instructions are in order to be saved.
[2]Is it fair to say, "show me proof", here? But, um, it's "Qur'an".

What is your source for all of this? How does "God tell you"? How do you know God is "most merciful?"

This is getting repetitive. Yes, i'ma pass on these questions. I'm pretty sure you can figure these things out yourself.

[1]Am I to understand that you do not ever sin intentionally? [2]What does that mean?

Sorry if i wasn't explicit enough. I meant "you" in general, not "you" literally.
[1]Well, i don't like to sin. I'm not one that strives to sin. If i become aware of a sin that i've commited, then i'll repent, and ask for forgiveness.
[2]Um, I guess you can say, if one sins on purpose, there's a chance of one not being forgiven.

What I do know is that you seem to be quoting, as most Muslim apologists do, from the 16th century forgery, The Gospel of Barnabas, which is the only book making that claim. It has been thoroughly refuted though, it is a forgery. The writing style and content is nowhere close to any of the contemporary gospel accounts, the OT and NT quotes in that document is from the Latin Vulagte, which it is supposed to predate, Mary was never given the title of Virgin Mary before the 4th century yet it appears in the G.o.B.. I can continue, but it is clear that it is nothing but a shoddy forgery. Furthermore, we have very clear Scriptural evidence, both internally and externally consistent that Jesus was crucified, buried and rose from the dead, so that we may live.

Oh, so you can figure things out. But, show me this externally consistent scriptural evidence.

The 10 commandments defeats your assertion here. The first 4 commandments are about sins against God, and the last 6 about sins against fellow men. This clearly shows that God commands us not to sin against Him nor each other, since our sins do affect each other, and is contrary to the love God commands us to have for each other, in the same way He loves us.

[1]Can you name one human being who never sinned?

Again, sorry for not being explicit enough, again. But, what i meant by sins not affecting others, i meant if someone commits sin, it doesn't bounce to another person, which in this state two people are now with sin, eventhough, one person commited it.
[1]No, i can't name them, cause i don't know their names. But, there are many babies that die after birth. Also the ones that died because someone wanted to kill baby Jesus.

Source?

You know the source.

[1]How did God show you "the truth"? [2]What did you repent of? [3]Sorry, but you keep on denying God, and insulting His love and grace, and if you cannot bear to hear that truth, then so be it, but you still need to hear it. [4]You cannot consider "Jesus over God", because Jesus is God.

[1]I'm not gonna answer that.
[2]Re-read the sentence.
[3]I guess we have a different definition of denying and insulting.
[4]I can, however, consider Jesus under God.

Well then, why don't you start backing up your statements with some scholarship and facts, instead of just regurgitating every tired old muslim lie?

I'll stop, so long as you stop being repetitive.

All I ask is that you ask God (not your girlfriend), for His wisdom and truth.

I advise, and will continue to do so, to stop making assumptions about my girlfriend.

____________________________

Good morning everyone!

[August]

I think we have exhausted this topic, and it is just going around in circles.

monotheist, thank you for your responses, butyou have not been forthcoming with any sort of scholarly debate. That is not the point. I certainly wish you to find the truth aout God and salvation, and like I said previously, continue to pray that you will find the truth, because just out of the sources you have quoted, you seem to be looking in the wrong places. You seem to be an intelligent young man, keep doing your research.

This topic is now closed.