The Great 3 1/2 yrs Tribulation

[led]

Question: Where does it say that the tribulation will be 7 yrs?

Doesn't the Antichrist in Dan. 9:27 make a peace treaty for 7 yrs to bring in peace and safety (1 Thess. 5:2) that lasts 3 1/2 yrs and then he sets up the AoB in the holy place which would start the great trib. (Matt.24:15-21.) for the last half of the "week" which is 3 1/2 yrs?

[puritan lad]

Question: Where does it say that the tribulation will be 7 yrs?

Nowhere.

Doesn't the Antichrist in Dan. 9:27 make a peace treaty for 7 yrs to bring in peace and safety (1 Thess. 5:2) that lasts 3 1/2 yrs and then he sets up the AoB in the holy place which would start the great trib. (Matt.24:15-21.) for the last half of the "week" which is 3 1/2 yrs?

There is no “antichrist” or “peace treaty” in Daniel 9:27 or in 1 Thess. 5:2. The AOB was the armed invasion of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD (See Matthew 24:15-20 and compare Luke 21:20-24).

[bizzt]

Actually there is a Difference

The Tribulation is what I believe we go through Day to day... the History of Israel is the Tribulation but the Great Tribulation is something Extraordinary. It is something Israel will have never gone through and will never go Through. For the first 3 1/2 years there will be peace where the last 3 1/2 years there will be a great Tribulation...

My 2 Cents

[bizzt]

And I was just going to say PL will have a different take on that

[bluesman]

Kingdom against kingdom Nation against Nation !

World War I II and III

Now learn then parable of the fig tree!!


I believe the most accepted belief is in a 7 year peace agreement which is broken at 3 1/2 years which starts the great tribulation of 3 1/2 years.


Michael
Thomas

[puritan lad]

Kingdom against kingdom Nation against Nation !

World War I II and III

Bluesman. How did you come up with World War I II III from this passage? Please expound.

Now learn then parable of the fig tree!!

Ah! Please explain the Parable of the Fig Tree to me in light of your endtimes beliefs. I don't get it.

I believe the most accepted belief is in a 7 year peace agreement which is broken at 3 1/2 years which starts the great tribulation of 3 1/2 years.

True. But only since the release of the Scofield Reference Novel, er, Bible.

God Bless,

PL

[led]

I believe the most accepted belief is in a 7 year peace agreement which is broken at 3 1/2 years which starts the great tribulation of 3 1/2 years.

Thx, I've only heard people refer to the great trib. as 7 yrs. I can only see it as 3 1/2 yrs too. Would you say that the AoB and the Antichrist are the same thing?

[bluesman]

Pl I am well aware of your views from your past posts.

When else in history did many nations or kingdoms or countries war against each other?

Here is a good website for this verse
http://shamah-elim.info/preparu2.htm


Parable of the fig tree. I realize that this is highly debated verse.
Here is one website about it.
http://users.westelcom.com/larabeeg/figs.htm

If the fig tree is Israel then 1948 and 1967 are important dates to know.

Maybe You can explain what these verses mean to you?

or maybe I should not ask

Anyways here a even better website

http://www3.telus.net/thegoodnews/finalgeneration.htm

and here another http://www.themoorings.org/prophecy/Israel/Israel1.html

What the parable means, therefore, is that when the nation of Israel revives after its coming disintegration and death in A.D. 70, the return of Christ will be imminent.

God Bless

Michael Thomas

[puritan lad]

When else in history did many nations or kingdoms or countries war against each other?

Most of World History. This isn't much of a sign if Matthew 24:34 is ignored. From a percentage standpoint, there is nothing significant about the 20th Century in terms of war. However, during the period of Pax Romana, war was extremely rare. This is a prophecy concerning the Roman Civil War and the Roman Civil War. Jesus told his Apostles, "... you will hear of wars and rumors of wars" (Matthew 24:6), and that the things He was talking about were going to happen within their generation (Matthew 24:34). As a result, "...when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her." (Luke 21:20-21). I don't see how the 20th Century World Wars fit the bill.

Parable of the fig tree. I realize that this is highly debated verse.
Here is one website about it.
http://users.westelcom.com/larabeeg/figs.htm

If the fig tree is Israel then 1948 and 1967 are important dates to know.

Maybe You can explain what these verses mean to you?

Anyways here a even better website

http://www3.telus.net/thegoodnews/finalgeneration.htm

and here another http://www.themoorings.org/prophecy/Israel/Israel1.html

What the parable means, therefore, is that when the nation of Israel revives after its coming disintegration and death in A.D. 70, the return of Christ will be imminent.

Ah, the Christian TV version. Nothing is said in this parable about 1948, 1967, or Israel becoming a nation again after 70 AD. (For that matter, there is nothing in the entire Bible about this.) In fact, the parable tells us just the opposite.

Matthew 21:18-19
"Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away."

The parable of the fig tree is about the Destruction, not the rebirth of Israel. Israel, as a covenant nation, has ceased to exist. No fruit will ever grow on her again.

God Bless

PL

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You are mistaken Puritan lad,

when you say that «Israel as a covenant nation has ceased to exist.» God's covenant with Abraham can be found in Genesis 15:18-20:

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, «To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates...» (NIV)

Moreover, the covenant with Abraham is everlasting:

I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give you as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God. -Genesis 17:7-8 (NIV)

The Fig Tree: to see this as a parable of the «Destruction of Israel» is to miss the point. God does not establish an everlasting covenant only to change His mind later on:

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind...
- 1 Samuel 15:29

FL

[bluesman]

PL wrote:

Ah, the Christian TV version. Nothing is said in this parable about 1948, 1967, or Israel becoming a nation again after 70 AD. (For that matter, there is nothing in the entire Bible about this.) In fact, the parable tells us just the opposite.

Do you have a problem with Christian TV ? The countless hours that the likes of Jack Van Impe have put into studying this can't be discounted lightly.
There are others that have written books etc. and scholars that hold this view.
Do you deny that this a popular interpretation?

I realize that the 70 AD events are important and that the bible contains prophesy that have dual time fulfillment.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

when you say that «Israel as a covenant nation has ceased to exist.» God's covenant with Abraham can be found in Genesis 15:18-20:

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, «To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates...» (NIV)

Moreover, the covenant with Abraham is everlasting:

I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give you as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God. -Genesis 17:7-8 (NIV)

Amen FL

Michael
Thomas

[puritan lad]

You are mistaken Puritan lad,

when you say that «Israel as a covenant nation has ceased to exist.» God's covenant with Abraham can be found in Genesis 15:18-20:

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, «To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates...» (NIV)

Moreover, the covenant with Abraham is everlasting:

I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give you as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God. -Genesis 17:7-8 (NIV)

The Fig Tree: to see this as a parable of the «Destruction of Israel» is to miss the point. God does not establish an everlasting covenant only to change His mind later on:

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind...
- 1 Samuel 15:29

FL

The Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled and will continue to be fulfilled through the Church (Acts 3:25; Romans 4:13-17; Galatians 3:7-16), the true decendents of Abraham, not the Christ-rejecting Judaists, who are of their father the Devil and do His will (John 8:37-44). (The same was true in the Old Testament, as Rahab, an accursed Canaanite; Ruth, and accursed Moabite, and Urriah, a Hittite, were considered to be true Jews, while children of Abraham such as Esau, King Saul, Judas Iscariot, etc. were rejected.)

Do you have a problem with Christian TV ?

Yes. It's theology stinks, although it is good sometimes for a few laughs (especially some of the hair and makeup these people have. It's almost as bad as that recent Brady Bunch movie).

The countless hours that the likes of Jack Van Impe have put into studying this can't be discounted lightly.

Neither can his multitude of false prophecies, such as…

…Soviet flags over Philadelphia by 1976
…the world running out of food by 1984 (repeating Doomsayers Paul Ehrlich)
…1988 fig tree generation (proof positive that he does not “understand the parable of the fig tree” as Jesus told His Apostles to do).
…the mystery of September 1999
…the Y2K Crisis

Just the titles of some of his books should be enough to expose what he is…

Your Startling Future (1979)
11: 59...And Counting! (1987)
2001 Countdown to Eternity

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What does God think of this nonsense? The Below are God's Words, not mine. Hear Him…

Deuteronomy 18:18-22
“I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'— when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

Jeremiah 23:25-34
“I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, 'I have dreamed, I have dreamed!' How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.“ The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?” says the LORD.“ Is not My word like a fire?” says the LORD,“ And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? “Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who steal My words every one from his neighbor. Behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who use their tongues and say, 'He says.' Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the LORD, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the LORD. “So when these people or the prophet or the priest ask you, saying, 'What is the oracle of the LORD?' you shall then say to them, 'What oracle?' I will even forsake you,” says the LORD. “And as for the prophet and the priest and the people who say, 'The oracle of the LORD!' I will even punish that man and his house.”

2 Peter 2:1
“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.”

There are others that have written books etc. and scholars that hold this view.
Do you deny that this a popular interpretation?

Popular yes. So are UFO cults. That is irrelevant. All that proves is what we already know; sensationalism sells. Are you aware that your entire endtimes theology is less than 200 years old? It was invented out of thin air by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren in the 1830's (assisted by Scottish Psychic Margaret McDonald). It was cast into the mainstream with the release of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909 (Scofield himself was imprisoned for a real estate scam after his so-called conversion) and really gained popularity with the works of another false prophet named Hal Lindsey (inventor of the 1988 fig tree generation).

The biggest problem is that none of the events they speak of can be found in Scripture. Fads are popular, but God's Word stands forever.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You are mistaken again, Puritan lad,

the Jewish people have not been divested of the Abrahamic Covenant. The «Church» has not inherited this covenant. Gentile believers have been grafted on to the root. May I suggest you read Romans 11:11-32 and pray for understanding.

When God says Israel, He means Israel:

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said:

The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put their laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people... Hebrews 8:6-13, italic and boldface; Jeremiah (OT!!!) 31:31-34 boldface only. NIV.

The covenant being replaced is the Mosaic (Ex 19:5 to 8 ), not the Abrahamic. The Mosaic covenant was conditional; the Abrahamic is still in effect because it is unconditional and everlasting.

I could go on but I won't. There is a mild tone of anti-semitism in your post. I'm not attacking you for that. I think anti-semitism is a symptom of the aberrant theology that replaces some other entity for Israel. In your case, the «some other entity» seems to be the church; for others it can be the Aryan people, or British Israelism, for instance.

I will pray that you read God's Word with the heart of a child, bringing nothing to it for you have nothing to give. Ask Him and He will reveal Himself to you.

FL

[bluesman]

FL I think your new here so maybe I should tell you something about PL
if you have not figured him out yet.
Although maybe he will tell you himself.

Is his beliefs run deep and I don't think there is anyway to change them.
He also is a Calvinist which has some less than mainstream beliefs.

My beliefs well they are flexable to a degree, but I could never accept what
PL preaches.

Pl I am sorry that you don't realize that there is some very good shows on christian tv. Now I know there are really bad ones like Benny Hinn.
How can you find fault with James Robison? Okay Jack Van Impe is not perfect never said he was and he never said he was either.
I even watch Tomorrows World even though its theology is not the best.

I have no desire to get into a lengthy debate with you Pl, on endtimes.
We can agree to disagree and move on.

God Bless you both

Michael
Thomas

[puritan lad]

You are mistaken again, Puritan lad,

the Jewish people have not been divested of the Abrahamic Covenant. The «Church» has not inherited this covenant.

Yes they have. I posted three Scriptures that tell us that directly. Apparently you either didn't bother to read them, or just didn't like them. So I'll post the whole Scripture for you to see.

Acts 3:25
"You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'"

The Abrahamic Covenant was never meant for one race of people (Ot or NT). Look at how Abraham's Seed would be blessed in the very next verse.

Acts 3:26
"To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

Who is the speaking of FL? Certainly not anyone who practices the false religion of Judaism.

Romans 4:13-17
"For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;" (Hint: Paul is writing to Romans, not Jews).

Finally, the Scripture that puts the Abrahamic Covenant issue to rest.

Galatians 3:7-16
"Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ."

Abraham has ONLY one seed, those who are of the faith, for "only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham". The rest are under a curse, and Abraham is NOT their father, but rather the Devil (John 8:44).

Gentile believers have been grafted on to the root. May I suggest you read Romans 11:11-32 and pray for understanding.

There is only one root, and that is the church, consisting mostly of Jews inthe OT (but not exclusively, as I already pointed out), but includes Gentiles in the NT.) As a postmillennialist, I believe that their will be a time when Jews will turn to the faith (Romans 11:25-26), but only by forsaking their demonic religion and returning to the faith of Abraham, that of Jesus Christ and His gospel (Gal. 3:8).

I could go on but I won't. There is a mild tone of anti-semitism in your post. I'm not attacking you for that. I think anti-semitism is a symptom of the aberrant theology that replaces some other entity for Israel. In your case, the «some other entity» seems to be the church; for others it can be the Aryan people, or British Israelism, for instance.

Nice try. The Charge of Anti-Semitism put toward Postmills is commonplace among intellectually shallow Dispensationalists, who can't deal with the Word. Unless we agree with you that God is a racist who prefers one race above another, we are anti-semites.

We are not anti-semites. We do not hate Jews. We simply recognize Judaism for what it is, a false demonic cult.

Are you "anti-Mormon"? "Anti-Watchtower"? Do you hate these people?

I believe that Dispies are "Anti-Semitic", since that look forward to escaping planet earth while 1/3 of the Jewish population gets massacred. Is that not what you look farward to? Is that you "blessed hope"?

Now try again without the false accusations...

When God says Israel, He means Israel:

What is Israel, FL? Define it for me...

God promised Abraham that he would make of him a “great nation” (Genesis 12:2), and that “in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 22:18). This nation was to be a “holy nation” (Exodus 19:6).

What does it mean to be a Holy Nation? Is a nation holy simply because the DNA of it's citizens matches Abraham's (which, by the way, would eliminate most of the people living in modern day Israel)? Does the term “holy nation” fit some godless country that exists in the Middle East founded by the United Nations in 1948? Hardly. God is not a racist. He never saved anyone based in his or her genealogy, in either the Old or New Testament. If that were the case, then Esau (whom God hated — Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13) and Ishmael would have a claim on God's Covenant Blessings. So would King Saul, Judas Iscariot, and the modern day Palestinians. Likewise, Ruth (a Moabite), Rahab (a Canaanite), and Urriah (the Hittite), (two of which were Christ's ancestors) would never have experienced sanctification. Physical circumcision made one a part of God's visible church, but in the light of eternity, profits nothing (Galatians 5:6).

A holy nation is set apart by God based on obedience to His Covenant. In the Old Testament, a Hebrew who was disobedient was to be “cut off from the congregation of Israel” (Exodus 12:19). Does this mean that God changed the person's genetic code so that he was no longer a Hebrew? Of course not. It means that he was no longer part of the “holy nation”, God's visible church here on earth. The same is true in the New Testament (ex. 1 Cor. 5:1-12). Sadly, the judicial powers of the modern church are almost non-existent.

In the same Exodus passage, God tells Moses “And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you." (Exodus 12:48-49). Again, God does not make this person's DNA match that of Abraham, but instead sets him apart “as a native of the land” in His holy nation. Thus, even in the Old Testament, God never considered anyone a “Jew” based on race alone. Both Jew and Gentiles were to have “one law”.

This is even more obvious the New Testament. The Pharisees took pride in their linage, but were not members of God's “holy nation”. John the Baptist gave them this warning.

“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matthew 3:7-10).

The Judaists even bragged to Jesus about their heritage, proclaiming “Abraham is our father.” (John 8:39). But Jesus was very clear with His response. Contrary to popular dispensational belief, Judaism is not “Old Testament religion”, but a demon-inspired, Talmudic cult. When the Pharisees rejected Christ, they rejected Moses (John 5:46). The god of Judaism is the Devil (John 8:44). Only Born Again believers in Jesus Christ are considered true Jews. Others are not true Jews, but of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9). As Christ rejecters, they are no longer “God's Chosen People”. Jesus told them,"… the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.” (Matthew 21:43). This nation is His “holy nation”, the Church of Jesus Christ, the new “Israel of God”, and the Galatian church was so called (Galatians 6:16).

Paul writes “…for they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Romans 9:6), “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision is that of the heart…” (Romans 2:29). “And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29). In Christ, all ethnic, cultural, economic and generational walls have been removed. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). If Jesus Christ removed these barriers, who are we to try and build them back up?

There is more. While the modern dispensational church keeps it's eyes glued to the Middle East, awaiting some sort of Theological Extravaganza, Paul clarified that the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 22:18) is being fulfilled through the church, (and the Galatian Gentile church at that). “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 - So much for the idea that the church age was invisible to the Old Testament prophets.) As Christians, we are members of the New, Heavenly Jerusalem which is the one and only bride of Christ, the mother of us all (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22).

I will pray that you read God's Word with the heart of a child, bringing nothing to it for you have nothing to give. Ask Him and He will reveal Himself to you.

I pray that you will read it with some maturity, putting away the milk of Christian TV theology and start in on some meat.

God Bless,

PL