Eating meat

[victoria brady]

Hello,
I am a new member but not a new christian. I was wondering if anyone is concerned about the treatment transportation and slaughter of our livestock Is it the will of a just God that we patronize the food industry.Given the current condition of animals kept for food and the deplorable conditions they have to endure to feed us.I have always cared for animals but never thought to much about pigs,cows,and chickens,I would think about them usually at dinner time before we would pray. I always thank God for them,But then I started wondering how are the animals keeping up with such a big population after all they are living breathing beings and it takes time to grow and how much milk can a cow produce for all of us.So I started to research and I cried when I found out what is going on.It made me sick to be a part of this kind of treatment of GODS creatures who give him pleasure.I have chosen to eat no meat dairy or animal products that would support this industry.What about christians raising thir own livestock,just a thought.

[Canuckster1127]

Hello,
I am a new member but not a new christian. I was wondering if anyone is concerned about the treatment transportation and slaughter of our livestock Is it the will of a just God that we patronize the food industry.Given the current condition of animals kept for food and the deplorable conditions they have to endure to feed us.I have always cared for animals but never thought to much about pigs,cows,and chickens,I would think about them usually at dinner time before we would pray. I always thank God for them,But then I started wondering how are the animals keeping up with such a big population after all they are living breathing beings and it takes time to grow and how much milk can a cow produce for all of us.So I started to research and I cried when I found out what is going on.It made me sick to be a part of this kind of treatment of GODS creatures who give him pleasure.I have chosen to eat no meat dairy or animal products that would support this industry.What about christians raising thir own livestock,just a thought.

Victoria,

Welcome.

I am not a vegan nor do I think there is scriptural support or reason to be one.

I believe animals do not have souls and that we as humans are put over them as stewards.

That being said, I have no problem with addressing issues with cruelty to animals. I believe we are stewards and responsible to be humane and kind in this area.

I believe much the same with regard to the environment as well and believe we are comissioned as stewards in that realm as well.

I appreciate your tender conscience in this regard and good luck in your seeking to find balance on this issue.

As a Christian, what do you believe the scriptures have to say in regard to your concerns?

If you're interested, here is a link to an article on the main board addressing some of your points.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/vegetarian.html

[led]

It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Do you have faith that you can eat meat or drink wine?

Conclusion: Let it be done according to your faith... and by happy.

Peace

[victoria brady]

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I am not sure that you understand my question.

God says to be in this world but not of it.To come out from among

them and be separate,if we want to eat meat shouldn't we raise our own

livestock and not leave it to the evil of this world,or is it of no importance

how we treat animals,they are just things intimate objects machines.

Jesus taught people to be merciful , and wasn't it Gods will in the beginning

that we enjoy animals and not eat them it was sin that made us

omnivores . God can not be pleased with the way his creation is

being treated anyone that takes a look at the currant way our

livestock are treated would know that this is wrong. God is a good

shepherd . Isn't it our responsibility to care for all of Gods creation

until you have seen what I have seen in this industry read what I

have read there is no point in this discussion . Just press in factory

farming on your computer and there are many sites on this .Also I

have eaten meat all of my life it is only because of the way our

livestock are treated that I will not eat it.I will not patronize such

disregard for what God created to support this cruelty is not

being a good shepherd.

[led]

Sorry if I don't bring the right message across. I will try again.

God tells us to not worry about what happens and to not even ask questions for the sake of our conscience.

Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience' sake 1 Corinthians 10:25

God isn't so concerned about the animals as you can see from the Mosaic Law and how blood sacrifices were carried out.

With that said, I love my two cats. Just remember not to get too worried about it.

Peace

[Canuckster1127]

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I am not sure that you understand my question.

God says to be in this world but not of it.To come out from among

them and be separate,if we want to eat meat shouldn't we raise our own

livestock and not leave it to the evil of this world,or is it of no importance

how we treat animals,they are just things intimate objects machines.

Jesus taught people to be merciful , and wasn't it Gods will in the beginning

that we enjoy animals and not eat them it was sin that made us

omnivores . God can not be pleased with the way his creation is

being treated anyone that takes a look at the currant way our

livestock are treated would know that this is wrong. God is a good

shepherd . Isn't it our responsibility to care for all of Gods creation

until you have seen what I have seen in this industry read what I

have read there is no point in this discussion . Just press in factory

farming on your computer and there are many sites on this .Also I

have eaten meat all of my life it is only because of the way our

livestock are treated that I will not eat it.I will not patronize such

disregard for what God created to support this cruelty is not

being a good shepherd.

I think I understand your question Victoria. I think we simply do not agree about the extent of the problem and the need for action.

However, I think God has given us each the gift of a conscience and mind and that part of serving God is to be true to that conscience and do what we believe to be right as long as it doesn't violate His word.

Obviously, your beliefs and standards are such that you feel very strongly about it and being a vegetarian because of those strong beliefs and not wanting to support an industry that you believe is cruel and violates God's stewardship laws, is a perfectly legitimate and commendable act on your part.

As to your question about whether there are Christian livestock growers who provide animal products where you could be assured that they were treating the animals humanely and ethically, I honestly don't know. The problem in that setting would be distribution I think, to where you knew you were getting their products. Perhaps some organic growers who are not necessarily Christian officially would never-the-less maintain some type of standards like this and you could buy their products without harming your conscience in this regard.

I wish I could be more help, but that is all I know to offer. If you find out more in your search and want to share it here with us, feel free.

I don't have as high a concern in this area as you do, but that doesn't mean I think your opinion is not worthwhile.

[victoria brady]

Hello

Just wanted to thank you for your replies I have a better understanding

I still do not understand every thing that God does. I find the bible very

hard to understand.

[Canuckster1127]

Hello

Just wanted to thank you for your replies I have a better understanding

I still do not understand every thing that God does. I find the bible very

hard to understand.

Victoria,

You are welcome and I am very happy you are here.

The Bible can seem hard to understand at times. I've been a Christian for over 30 years and studied the Bible a lot and while I think that has helped me to understand it better, there are many things I still don't know and much to learn.

You're in a good place on this board to ask questions.

What in particular are you having difficulty with and how could we help you?

Bart

[FFC]

Hello,
I am a new member but not a new christian. I was wondering if anyone is concerned about the treatment transportation and slaughter of our livestock Is it the will of a just God that we patronize the food industry.Given the current condition of animals kept for food and the deplorable conditions they have to endure to feed us.I have always cared for animals but never thought to much about pigs,cows,and chickens,I would think about them usually at dinner time before we would pray. I always thank God for them,But then I started wondering how are the animals keeping up with such a big population after all they are living breathing beings and it takes time to grow and how much milk can a cow produce for all of us.So I started to research and I cried when I found out what is going on.It made me sick to be a part of this kind of treatment of GODS creatures who give him pleasure.I have chosen to eat no meat dairy or animal products that would support this industry.What about christians raising thir own livestock,just a thought.

Hi Victoria,
I think you raise some very good points. I'll be honest, I hate to even think about the atrocious ways that animals are treated in slaughter houses. I'm not an animal activist but I also cringe when I think of the animals that are deliberately tortured in the testing of cometics and such as well as the treatment of laboratory animals. There definately needs to be some reform in all of these areas!

Maybe your being called to make a difference in these aeas, you never know. to stop eating meat is certainly a start.

If I have a choice I use products that aren't tested on animals, I try to eat hormone free meat, and I refuse to eat baby cows (veal) who spend their whole lives in boxes so small that they get zero exercise and fed so much that they get so fat that their legs cannot even support their weight. What a sad existence. I'm not ready to join PETA but my conscience is definately sore on this subject.

Just thought I'd share that I understand how you feel.

[bluesman]

I would just like to make something clear.

Please don't believe everything you read on the net about how animals are treated. Groups like Peta will outright tell lies to try to meet their agenda.

Even pictures might not tell the complete story. Just because there is a lot of blood doesn't mean an animal suffered more. An example of this is the Seal Hunt.

Do I believe we should minimize the suffering of animals? Yes, but we must know the truth from a science point of view.

Eating organic is great. Buying from small local farms and farmers markets
is great.

With eating veggies ask yourself something. How good for the environment is all the chemicals used to grow these food?

Before this open fields of vegetables were planted what was there?
Forest or wetlands at one time, that was full of animals.
I see many cattle farmers leaving woodlots (good for animals) , but not many at farms of endless fields of vegetables.

My point is things are not so black and white like you all might think.

Michael Thomas

PS Meat from local small farmers taste so much better than that mass produced "dog food" meat on the big operations.

[victoria brady]

It has taken me some time to reply to the last post. I had to wait until I could

be civil.

I too would like to make something clear. Wake up and smell reality. What in the world are you talking about. The amount of blood has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Its about quality of life and factory farms. Yes there are good farmers out there but 90% of the US food comes from factory farms.

I had to check to make sure that this is a christian site. Is there still a devil or evil in this world or have we gotton rid of him and I wasn't told.

How can any of you stick your heads in the bible and be indiffrent to such horrors comitted on Gods creatures. I have to admit that I was amazed that you people call yourselves Gods children. We will have to answer for our gluttony and willing ingnorance.

Tell the cows,pigs and chickens that there lives are so worthless that we can't eventreat them decent before we eat them with no thought. Tell them that all there suffering for our greed was in vain because even God doesn't love them. That the cows that give us milk teets get severly infected witch causes great pain and they still milk her with blood pus and all and as a woman I know that that is horribly painful. She cant even spend anytime with her calf or feed it cause we gotta have her milk. Oh ya thats right God says its o.k

Tell them that they are not entitled to fresh air so they get lung infections from the constant stench of feces and urine or maybe they like the smell they are worthless.

Tell the chickens who are crammed into cages so tight they cant even open a wing or scratch and itch or feel dirt beneath there feet all to give us eggs.

Tell the sows(pigs kept to breed) that they are not worthy of any space or room kept in metal stalls with concrete floors were they cant turn around move or lay down whos first step if they can manage to make one because many are crippled from no exersise will be to the truck for slaughter. If they cant walk they will be made to. If the weather is real hot they will burn suffocate or die from the heat,or cold they will freeze to the sides of the truck while they are still alive .

I could go on and on about what is happening. I dont need peta to tell me all I need is a brain and willingness to find out.

It is our responsability to know these things we do not live in the times of the bible our world is much bigger . We will answer for doing nothing as Gods children we should be screaming about this and most definatley not supporting it.

Oh yea buy the way the pigs cows and chickens are not dog food. They are living breathing feeling beings who have more of a purpose then to be
our dinner.

[Gman]

Hi victoria brady,

Excellent points... Yes, I would go even further here to say the God in the old testement had many laws that protected animals. Look at Exodus 23: 5, 11, 12 or Lev 25:5-7. I would also like to remind the panel that when man was first created he was vegan, Gen 1:29 and that someday in the future it will go back to this, (including the animals) Isaiah 11:6,7.

I know many people that told me that they wouldn't want to be a Christian because of how we treat animals and the environment. And you know in many cases they are RIGHT. Just think of all the people we are turning away from salvation because of our actions. I think we as Christians need to take a closer look to what we are doing to the animals and this planet. Didn't God call us to be stewards of his planet?

G -

[Canuckster1127]

Hi victoria brady,

Excellent points... Yes, I would go even further here to say the God in the old testement had many laws that protected animals. Look at Exodus 23: 5, 11, 12 or Lev 25:5-7. I would also like to remind the panel that when man was first created he was vegan, Gen 1:29 and that someday in the future it will go back to this, (including the animals) Isaiah 11:6,7.

I know many people that told me that they wouldn't want to be a Christian because of how we treat animals and the environment. And you know in many cases they are RIGHT. Just think of all the people we are turning away from salvation because of our actions. I think we as Christians need to take a closer look to what we are doing to the animals and this planet. Didn't God call us to be stewards of his planet?

G -

We are called to be stewards.

I don't believe we are called to elevate animals to equal or above humans and I believe God created us as omnivores.

Humane treatment of animals is certainly a legitimate issue.

Elevating animals to make the point is not the answer.

Each must answer to their own conscience before God in this as in many matters where there is freedom and we exercise our stewardship with the creation.

[victoria brady]

I bet the animals would like to be elevated from the poop and pee they live in.


Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.(Jesus)

[Canuckster1127]

I bet the animals would like to be elevated from the poop and pee they live in.


Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.(Jesus)

I suspect they would.

As I stated, it is not necessary to elevate animals to equal with humans in order to make this point.

As this is a Christian Apologetics board and you've indicated you are a Christian, albeit with questions about things, why don't you offer some scripture to back up your position?

Are you arguing that animals are equal to humans?

When God made man in His image, what do you think that means? Does the image of God create some form of special inherent value in man over animals?

Are you against all use of animal products on moral grounds based upon your view of animals being equal to people or is it just the inhumane treatment that causes you to react thus?

Are humans being mistreated in similar manners anywhere in the world? Which is a more important element to address? Is there a way to address both and still maintain a priority on people?

Is this an emotionally based position or is there some rational foundation to it, and what would solve the problem in your mind?

I'd be interested to know. Most here have expressed sympathy with your position and your concerns to varying levels. That's to be expected. Is this the most important issue for you in life? Is there anything more important?

Are you here to discuss?

I hope you'll interact. We all have passions in different areas. We're here to learn and discuss.