The Great 3 1/2 yrs Tribulation

[bluesman]

PL Wrote:

We simply recognize Judaism for what it is, a false demonic cult.

Come on would you get real! Is every religion that doesn't accept Jesus as
messiah a demonic cult? Are they worshipping satan?

You know my theology and knowledge scripture is not developed enough
to go head to head with you in a debate. However, I know false hateful
words when I see them. Now I am not calling you hateful or anything like that.
However, what you say of Judaism is sinful. If you must say you disagree with
the theology of Judaism, but don't be hateful.

Maybe I am wrong, but before Jesus came the correct religion was Judaism?
Believing the Old Testament is good right.
I regard Judaism as being almost like a brother to christianity of maybe more like a father. I believe the jewish people have taken an unfair rap because of the crucifixion of Jesus. They performed their role in Gods plan and that was necessary for man's salvation. So in a way we should thank them for sending Jesus to the cross.

How would you feel if I called Calvinism a false demonic cult?

Michael
Thomas

[puritan lad]

Come on would you get real! Is every religion that doesn't accept Jesus as messiah a demonic cult?

Yes.

Are they worshipping satan?

One does not have to be involved in the active worship of Satan to be in a demonic cult. Satan is a liar and the father of lies. And all other religions outside of Christianity are a lie (including Judaism).

You know my theology and knowledge scripture is not developed enough to go head to head with you in a debate. However, I know false hateful words when I see them. Now I am not calling you hateful or anything like that.

Where are the false hateful words? The words I quoted are directly from the mouth of Jesus Christ. If you have a problem with them, you'll have to take it up with Him.

Maybe I am wrong, but before Jesus came the correct religion was Judaism? Believing the Old Testament is good right. I regard Judaism as being almost like a brother to christianity of maybe more like a father. I believe the jewish people have taken an unfair rap because of the crucifixion of Jesus. They performed their role in Gods plan and that was necessary for man's salvation. So in a way we should thank them for sending Jesus to the cross.

You stated earlier that your "theology and knowledge scripture is not developed enough". Let me help you develope some.

Point #1 - "before Jesus came the correct religion was Judaism". The problem is that the OT religion of Judaism no longer exists. It was destroyed in 70 AD (actually about 40 years earlier). The Old Testament Judaism was a religion based on Christ, as can easily be shown by Scripture. The modern form bares no resemblance to either Old Testament Judaism or Christianity. There is no salvation for anyone outside of Christ, regardless of race. Abraham was saved by the Gospel, and he only has one seed. "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7)

Point #2 - "Believing the Old Testament is good right." True. But there is no belief in the Old Testament that is consistent with the rejection of Christ. When the Jews rejected Christ, they rejected Moses (John 5:46). Those who truly believe in the Old Testament will believe in Christ. Modern Judaism — the vain attempt to continue the Old Covenant while rejecting Christ "is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned" (Heb. 6:4-8). Old Covenant religion cannot be revivified; it is impossible to have the Covenant without Christ. There can be no turning "back" to something which never existed, for even the fathers under the Old Covenant worshiped Christ under the signs and seals of the provisional age (1 Cor. 10:1-4).

Point #3 - "I regard Judaism as being almost like a brother to christianity of maybe more like a father." Too bad Jesus didn't feel the same way (John 8:37-44).

Point #4 - "I believe the jewish people have taken an unfair rap because of the crucifixion of Jesus." Modern Judaists, like other non-Christians, will be judged for their rejection of Christ, crucifying Him afresh. As for those of 70 AD, you'll have to take that up with Jesus. (Matthew 21:33-45).

Point #5 - "They performed their role in Gods plan and that was necessary for man's salvation. So in a way we should thank them for sending Jesus to the cross". True. While your at it, you can thank Judas Iscariot, Pilate, Herod, and the others. They will appreciate your thanks while they are burning in Hell, the destination of all who reject Christ, Jew or Gentile.

Mike, what happens when someone dies without Christ? I'd like to know your belief on that? I must say that you hold a number of troubling beliefs, from socialism, to a rejection of eternal judgment in Hell. Do you believe that Christ is the only way of salvation, or is there another?

How would you feel if I called Calvinism a false demonic cult?

I would ask you to prove it with Scripture. Good Luck. Your post is a shining example of what happens when one learns their theology from Christian TV. You base too much of your theology on "feeling", not on the Scriptures, which is the whole council of God and the standard by which all of our beliefs are to be measured. I encourage you read "study the scriptures to see if these things be so".

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Okay Puritan Lad,

I did look at the references you gave:

regarding Acts 3:25-26: Peter is speaking to a Jewish audience here, as you can read for yourself in Acts 3:11-23. The Abrahamic covenant was with the Jews and Peter is speaking to a Jewish audience.

Regarding Romans 4:13-17

This passage is not about the Abrahamic covenant. The passage is dealing with salvation through Jesus. Salvation is salvation and Israel is Israel; you seem to be confusing the two.

Regarding Galatians 3:7-16

Ditto: this passage is not about the Abrahamic covenant, it is about salvation. Salvation is not Israel and Israel is not salvation.

Regarding Romans 11:17

Gentiles are wild olive branches grafted onto a cultivated olive tree. The root of that tree is God, not the church. I'm assuming you made a simple mistake on this one!

Who is Israel?

Let God answer: A name given to Jacob, Ge 32:24-32; a name given to the descendants of Jacob, a nation, Ge 43:32; Ex 1:15; 9:7; 10:3; 21:2; Le 23:42; Jos 13:6; 1Sa4:6... There are many refences to what Israel is and I could fill up this screen with them but you would not be convinced because you have believed a falsehood and are clinging to it for some reason only God knows. In any event, it is not important; what is important is your salvation, if you are born-again, that's all that matters. The rest is window dressing.

You are funny! I have no access to Christian TV so I don't watch it and know none of it's actors nor their shinanigans. About 5 years ago, in my father's house, I did see a show by a certain Creflo Dollar. At first I thought I was watching a comedy routine, a spoof of a crass black preacher with too much jewellery. Then I realized that this guy took himself seriously! Now that is funny!

FL

[bluesman]

Pl What I see is that you can pull scripture from here and there in the Bible
seemingly that support your views. However, I feel like you don't quite get the key scriptures.

For example the people on Tomorrow's World can with little effort spout endless scripture to support their theology, but in the end they are still wrong in some key area.

Jehovah Witness have a excellent memory of scripture but when they try to justify not taking a vaccine their theology falls apart.

Your forget one important thing is that it is Jesus/God's place to judge.
Those without sin cast the first stone. Love your enemy! Feed the poor!
God is Love!

Let me put it another way. Take yourself away from anonymity of the internet for a minute. If you were to meet face to face with a person of strong Jewish faith and your goal is to maybe convert him to Christianity.
Now, How are you going to talk to him? By calling his faith a demonic cult?
There is a difference being deceived by satan and being in a demonic cult.

Pilate although not innocent want Jesus to be free. Instead who decided Jesus fate? Did Judas repent or not? Did or didn't Satan go into Judas.

To say I support socialism as a form of government is not correct.
I don't reject an eternal punishment, what I reject is eternal punishing.
I think its clear to others that read my posts that I believe in Jesus being the way.
Now if you read about the White Throne Judgements what conclusion to you come up with?

As far as me an the Jewish people we worship the same God , except they miss what we Christians believe/know is the most important part. Jesus!

Since you don't watch Christian TV (and I am very selective in my watching) you miss shows about Christian missions to Israel to bridge a relationship to the Jewish people. An important part if we are to gain support for Christ in Israel. I can tell you that the approach you take on the internet would destroy any progress made.

Michael
Thomas

[puritan lad]

FL,

Regarding Romans 4:13-17

Regarding Galatians 3:7-16

Ditto: this passage is not about the Abrahamic covenant, it is about salvation. Salvation is not Israel and Israel is not salvation.

You may have a case if it wasn't for the fact that Paul directly quoted the Abrahamic Covenant in both Scriptures and then made it clear that it was to be applied only to the church. Only those who are of the faith are the children of Abraham. Could this be any clearer?

[puritan lad]

Pl What I see is that you can pull scripture from here and there in the Bible
seemingly that support your views. However, I feel like you don't quite get the key scriptures.

Such as...

For example the people on Tomorrow's World can with little effort spout endless scripture to support their theology, but in the end they are still wrong in some key area.

Jehovah Witness have a excellent memory of scripture but when they try to justify not taking a vaccine their theology falls apart

.
The sad part is that these people have a better knowledge of the Scriptures than most Christians. As for pulling scripture out here and there, it is up to you to show how I misused the scriptures (like the above cults do). Scripture is the only way we get to know God (contrary to mush of the teaching on Christian TV). The important thing isn't how we feel about something, nor if a teaching is popular or not. The only test is scripture, and the entire Dispensational belief, form it's tribulation to it's view of Israel, to it's view of God's Law, fails the test.

Let me put it another way. Take yourself away from anonymity of the internet for a minute. If you were to meet face to face with a person of strong Jewish faith and your goal is to maybe convert him to Christianity. Now, How are you going to talk to him? By calling his faith a demonic cult? There is a difference being deceived by satan and being in a demonic cult.

If we get on the subject of faith, I would start with Daniel's 70 week prophecy as well as Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. I would point out that if Jesus is not the Messiah, then these OT prophets were false.

However, I'm not talking to a Judaist right now. I'm talking to a Christian who believes that God has special favors upon a middle eastern country founded by the UN in 1948, which has absolutely nothing to do with Scripture.

And my goal would not be to "convert" him. That, I am completely incapable of doing.

As far as me an the Jewish people we worship the same God , except they miss what we Christians believe/know is the most important part. Jesus!

Tiis is the whole ball of wax right here. If they miss Jesus, then they do not worship the same God. Get ready, because I'm going to pull out more scripture. If I misuse it, them please point out how.

1 John 2:22-23
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

In case you and FL are wondering, this was meant to be a direct shot a Judaism, which John later refers to as a "synagougue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9). If you want, you may accuse John of being an hateful, antisemite, who wants to destroy the progress made with the 8,000 Jewish converts in Acts. The only problem with that theory is that John was Jewish (as was Paul).

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Puritan Lad,

I think it would be good to go through the Abrahamic covenant together to see what God promised to Abraham:

Genesis 12:2-3:

I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you;

This is the first part of the promise. It is directed to Abraham's progeny. Next,

I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

This is the second part of the promise. It is for Abraham personally; after the comma it can also be for you if you are part of Abraham's progeny or a spiritual descendant of his.

I will bless those who will bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;

This third part is personal to Abraham and to his progeny, that is the Jewish people of today. How so? the you is singular, not plural.

Lastly,

and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

This last part is what opens the door to salvation for all who come to Messiah Jesus. This last part of the promise is the one Paul writes about in Ro 4:13-17. And yes! you are a spiritual descendant of Abraham as a Gentile believer in Messiah, as God said in Ro 4:17 and in Gal 3:7. And yes! anyone, Jew or Gentile, living according to the Law is cursed, as God says in Gal 3:10. However, God doesn't go back on His word, doesn't change His mind. His promises to Israel the Nation, Israel the People, given to Abraham and confirmed to Abraham's son Isaac (Ge 26:23) then re-confirmed to Isaac's son Jacob (Ge 28:13-15), then re-re-confirmed to Moses and to all the Hebrews (Ex 3:17) leave no doubt that they are His Chosen People for all time. They are the apple of His eye even now as you sit there in front of your computer.

I don't want to make lengthy posts and this one is already too long! The gist of my message is that the Abrahamic covenant is composed of several parts. In this case, you must look at the individual trees to understand the forest, so to speak.

I'm not trying to convince you. God will do that if He so chooses.

Thanks for reading.

FL

[bluesman]

When PL you say

In case you and FL are wondering, this was meant to be a direct shot a Judaism, which John later refers to as a "synagougue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9). If you want, you may accuse John of being an hateful, antisemite, who wants to destroy the progress made with the 8,000 Jewish converts in Acts. The only problem with that theory is that John was Jewish (as was Paul).

First of all we should not be here to "take shots at Judaism" . John and Paul being Jewish is not the problem, its what allows them to say what they did.

Now lets look at Revelation 2:9

"I know your works, oppression, and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Who is the synagogue of Satan? All Jews? "those who say they are Jews and they are not"

" those who say they are Jews and they are not" Therefore those who say they are Jews and are Jews are not a synagogue of Satan. Those who are Jewish in their hearts and "works". "I know your works" and therefore if the works are good accordingly to the Jewish faith then one is Jewish in their hearts and therefore not of Satan.

Now as far as 1 John 2:22-23, read it in context of the whole chapter.
It does not read as being

this was meant to be a direct shot a Judaism

It was meant to all who reject Christ and yes it applies to Jews and Romans and Greeks and all non-christians.

And my goal would not be to "convert" him. That, I am completely incapable of doing.

With God all things are possible. Does not the bible tell us to contend for the faith? Yet as a Calvin you believe that their salvation is predestined.
I do not.

Jude 1:3
Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Scripture is the only way we get to know God (contrary to mush of the teaching on Christian TV). The important thing isn't how we feel about something, nor if a teaching is popular or not.

This maybe should be a separate topic. The whole thing of how traditional churches are shrinking and evangelical worship is growing like wildfire.
Traditional churches are not doing such a good job of saving souls.
However, this so called "mush on Christian TV" is drawing thousands.
I realize that its entertainment and contains a feel good message.

"God is Love"!!

To say that how we feel about something is not important denies what it means to be human and the acceptance of Jesus and the Holy Spirit into our hearts. I agree, reading and studying scripture is important.
Most Christian TV tells you to "read your bible" "read your Bible, check up on me, just don't take my word for it".
So I agree to just watch Christian TV is not enough. However, it has its place in God's plan. Watch James Robison, is that just mush ? Maybe what they feed them poor children looks like mush, but this is the meat of God's word. Or do you deny some of the most important words Jesus spoke?!

Michael
Thomas

[led]

I believe that after the 3 1/2 years you guys will still be at it.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

..........1246 more days to go...........

[puritan lad]

FL,

Let's try this again.

How many seeds does Abraham have? Abraham only has one seed, the church of Jesus Christ. There is no Covenant without Christ: period.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ.

Pretty clear to me. The New Testament is adamant on that fact from the very outset (See Matthew 3:8-9). The children of the flesh are NOT the children of the promise. (Romans 9:6-8). The Church, the Spiritual descendants of Abraham, has the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, including the priesthood. The flesh profits nothing. God is able to raise up children of Abraham from stones,

Exodus 19:6
And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

Who are the children of Israel?

Galatians 3:7
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

Let me repeat this so that it will sink in.

Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.

Did it sink on yet? These are not my words, but that of a Jew named Paul, a pharisee of pharisees, who, after his conversion, counted his Judaism as dung. He goes on to call Judaism "another gospel", and those who preach it "accursed" (Galatians 1:6-14)

1 Peter 2:9
But you (the church) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

There is your great nation FL, the one established by Jesus Christ, not the United Nations in 1948.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ rejecting Judaists are NOT the children of Abraham, but are of their father the Devil.

Mike, I do contend for the faith one for all delivered to the Saints. That is what I'm doing right now.

As for trying to apply 1 John 2:22 to “to Jews and Romans and Greeks and all non-christians”, this is true. However, only one of those groups claims to have the Father without the Son. Which one is that?

Regarding Rev. 3:9, who claims to be a Jew that isn't really a Jew? No one. John was addressing Judaist heretics in the Asian Churches, those who claim to be Jews based on their DNA relationship with Abraham. John says that they are not true Jews, but are of the synagogue of Satan.

Keep watching James Robison Mike. I'll pass.

God Bless,

PL

[Yeshua's follower]

This maybe should be a separate topic. The whole thing of how traditional churches are shrinking and evangelical worship is growing like wildfire.
Traditional churches are not doing such a good job of saving souls.
However, this so called "mush on Christian TV" is drawing thousands.

When I read this, scripture came to mind...

Luke 13:23 Then one said to Him, "Master, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, `Master, Master, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, `I do not know you, where you are from,' Luke 13:26 "then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' Luke 13:27 "But He will say, `I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.

Matt 7:21 (NKJV) " Not everyone who says to Me, `Master, Master,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me in that day, `Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me , you who practice lawlessness!'

Matt 7:13 (NKJV) " Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it .

In the last verse the words "FIND IT" really jumped out at me. I mean, if we are going find it, then we must first be looking for it, right? It's not just going to jump out in front of us. But I find it interesting that Bluesman said, "traditional churches are shrinking and evangelical worship is growing like wildfire."
It it so much easier to go where everyone else is, but if you are on a path that everyone else is on, then how can you be on a path that few find? When has the majority ever been right? Where in scripture was the majority ever right before Yahweh? These are just some things to think about.

Yeshua's follower

[FFC]

In the last verse the words "FIND IT" really jumped out at me. I mean, if we are going find it, then we must first be looking for it, right? It's not just going to jump out in front of us. But I find it interesting that Bluesman said, "traditional churches are shrinking and evangelical worship is growing like wildfire."
It it so much easier to go where everyone else is, but if you are on a path that everyone else is on, then how can you be on a path that few find? When has the majority ever been right? Where in scripture was the majority ever right before Yahweh? These are just some things to think about.

Few find it, Yeshua, because they don't know where to look. That is why we witness as is commanded in the great commission.


Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

This is too funny Puritan Lad!

As Led said:

I believe that after the 3 1/2 years you guys will still be at it!

Indeed! This is going nowhere and Bluesman did warn me about you but I didn't listen.

There is an arrogant tone to your posts on this thread which is most unpleasant. Don't believe me? Look at what you wrote:

Let me repeat this so that it will sink in.

Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.

Bizarre. What kind of person would write such a thing?

FL

[FFC]

This is too funny Puritan Lad!

As Led said:

I believe that after the 3 1/2 years you guys will still be at it!

Indeed! This is going nowhere and Bluesman did warn me about you but I didn't listen.

There is an arrogant tone to your posts on this thread which is most unpleasant. Don't believe me? Look at what you wrote:

Let me repeat this so that it will sink in.

Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.
Only those who are of (Christian) faith are sons of Abraham.

Bizarre. What kind of person would write such a thing?

FL

Just a little passion....Calvin style.

[bluesman]

PL wrote:

However, only one of those groups claims to have the Father without the Son. Which one is that?

I am not aware of all the gnostic, pagan and otherwise beliefs at the time of the writing. I do belief there was some others who didn't accept the divinity
of Jesus.

As of todays world we have some others like Islam for an extreme example and Jehovah Witness for another. I am sure there is more.

However, I would agree that John would have want to convert his Jewish brothers to Christianity.

Now on to 1948 and most important 1967!
Do you not believe that area of the world is going to play a part in the
"End Days"? or at least with what you believe is yet to be fulfilled.
You know there is a movement to rebuild the temple?

As far as Christian TV I think some of you blanket it all by the bad ones.
What about those who have difficulty getting out of the house?
You know there is more to the faith then just having your nose in the Bible
and saying it means this and it means that.
Its an application to ones whole life.

PL, do you have some problem with James Robison?
From what I see he is a great man that has my respect.

Michael
Thomas