The Great 3 1/2 yrs Tribulation

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Hey Bluesman!

If you look in the End Times section of these Forums, under the heading Historicism, you'll see a good summary that Canuckster posted regarding the main systems of interpreting Bible prophecy. Idealism, Historicism, Preterism and Futurism are there, in a nutshell.

Better still, read your Bible and don't rely on some preacher-with-an-axe-to-grind to vomit ready-made mush into your head.

And be very careful with Preterism! You'll see that Preterists consider the Jewish people as the enemies of Christ and that when they rejected Him as Messiah, God's promises to Israel were passed onto the Church, the Church being the «true Israel». Covetousness is Preterism.

FL

[puritan lad]

Galatians 3:7-29

"Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham... Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise....There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

[bluesman]

First of all I think you are wasting you time if you think you can convert
me to your views. Although I have discovered a new respect for what happened in 70 AD. Just not your view though PL.

I should also say I hate all the "big words" people throw around too much.
I don't want to follow some system of belief and be labeled. Thats what I hate about some Church/Denomination.

I want to know what someone believes in simple terms.

I believe that the Second Advent, the Resurrection (only one), and the Final Judgement are all future. I do not believe them to be imminent. Too much has yet to happen.

Okay what has yet to happen? How am I to know when Jesus is going to come. What will be the signs of his second coming? or did Jesus and the Bible just leave us in the dark?

Really I think I follow FL more on beliefs than you , Pl. Yet I wouldn't say I agree with every dot of the i or cross of the t of his either.
However, I still find it interesting to know a view quite in contrast to my own. I even read some Jehovah Witness booklet sometimes.

Anyways, I think we both know that there are some more important parts to the Bible like the 10 Commandments for example.

Michael Thomas

God Bless (the Oilers!!!)

[Canuckster1127]

First of all I think you are wasting you time if you think you can convert
me to your views. Although I have discovered a new respect for what happened in 70 AD. Just not your view though PL.

I should also say I hate all the "big words" people throw around too much.
I don't want to follow some system of belief and be labeled. Thats what I hate about some Church/Denomination.

I want to know what someone believes in simple terms.

I believe that the Second Advent, the Resurrection (only one), and the Final Judgement are all future. I do not believe them to be imminent. Too much has yet to happen.

Okay what has yet to happen? How am I to know when Jesus is going to come. What will be the signs of his second coming? or did Jesus and the Bible just leave us in the dark?

Really I think I follow FL more on beliefs than you , Pl. Yet I wouldn't say I agree with every dot of the i or cross of the t of his either.
However, I still find it interesting to know a view quite in contrast to my own. I even read some Jehovah Witness booklet sometimes.

Anyways, I think we both know that there are some more important parts to the Bible like the 10 Commandments for example.

Michael Thomas

God Bless (the Oilers!!!)

Opinions are fine and we all have them.

What do you believe the Scriptures say and can you include some to form a foundation for your thoughts?

(Go Leafs Go!)

[bluesman]

Opinions are fine and we all have them.

What do you believe the Scriptures say and can you include some to form a foundation for your thoughts?

I said

Anyways, I think we both know that there are some more important parts to the Bible like the 10 Commandments for example.

What did Jesus say about the Commandments?
Do I need to dig out the actual verses for you?

I also said

Okay what has yet to happen? How am I to know when Jesus is going to come. What will be the signs of his second coming? or did Jesus and the Bible just leave us in the dark?

Didn't think questions needed backing up by scripture.

Please don't take offense at my wording I mean it a bit tongue in cheek.

I think I have included scripture in many other posts of mine.

For a bit of my current views , are you aware of the two different sections in the NT about fig trees?
The barren fig tree which is what happened in 70 AD.
Then the parable of the fig tree with the tender leaves.
To me that is Israel 1948, 1967.

Pl doesn't follow my belief in that. I accept his right to his own view.
Grant me my right to my view of what the scripture means.

Pl does believe in that many Jewish people will converted. I believe the same. I do believe its possible that Elijah (and Moses?) is coming as the two witnesses to Israel. Although I don't know the scripture for that.
Something I picked up by the "Left Behind Books".

Michael Thomas
Bluesman

[victoria brady]

Hello,

I am very interested in this conversation. Is everyone that does not believe in Jesus going to hell.

I have always been taught that and I was wondering what the truth is.

There are alot of devoted religions out there. Really decent people who really do a lot of good in the lives of others. I know that we are not saved by works
and that it is the sacrifice of Jesus that has saved us from our sin.

But what does that really mean are we saved from our sin and forgiven that no matter what we do we ask forgiveness and we are forgiven.

All other religions are wrong and we are the only right ones. They all believe that they are right and we are wrong.

IM CONFUSED. No not really no matter I cant shake Jesus he won't leave me alone.

Could it be that God will reach us nomatter were we are the far reaches of the world were there are no books or churches maybe God comes to us differently. I have always wondered about that .

[Gman]

Is everyone that does not believe in Jesus going to hell.

Hi victoria. No I don't think so, but someone that may reject (in their hearts) the gospel may put themselves in harms way.

I just thought I would chime in on a few things concerning Israel, (which was stated before). In the 1st century Roman Church some Christians were inclinded to turn against the Jews and think they had permanently replaced them in God's plan. So this is God's answer to that error:

Romans 11:25-32

25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers, a partial hardening has come upon Israel, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE. 30 Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Even though we may reject their way of thinking about Christ, we still have to stand by their side... For a great future.

G -

[puritan lad]

Victoria,

There can only be one right religion. Christianity is it, as you can see for yourself by browsing this board.

Anyone who does not have Christ will go to Hell for eternity, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12).

[Gman]

As quoted from this web site: The question we need to ask first is "Who is a Christian?" Many young people believe they are Christians because their parents are Christians or they aren't Jewish, so they must be Christians.

Aren't you a Christian if you go to church and at some point went up front in response to an alter call? Jesus said that people are Christians if they believe in Him.1 Jesus also indicated that those who believed would hear His voice and follow Him.2 Part of the process of following Jesus is to repent. Repentance is a fancy Christian word that means to turn from one's sins and go in the opposite direction (righteousness). Jesus said that those who do not repent will perish.3 Jesus also indicated what kind of commitment one should make to be considered His disciple:

Then He [Jesus] said to them all: "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for Me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? (Luke 9:23-25)

So, Jesus made it quite clear that a casual confession of "faith" isn't going to cut it. One who really believes in Jesus will follow Him as their ultimate purpose in life.

[puritan lad]

No argument here. But the original question was "Is everyone that does not believe in Jesus going to hell?" The answer is "yes", not to mention some who do "believe" in Jesus while practicing lawlessness. (Matthew 7:21-23).

[Felgar]

Is everyone that does not believe in Jesus going to hell.

The answer is no. Someone who hasn't heard of Jesus can still be saved, because God reveals Himself to them in other ways. It is their heart - their faith - by which they are judged.

Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The passage states that God makes 'plain' to them what is necessary to be known. Every human makes the choice whether to follow God or not. If not through the message of the Gospel, then through 'what has been made'; through nature. So IMO there could be buddhists or whatever that know about God and have faith in Him, and are thus saved without hearing the name 'Jesus.'

Further, we know that the Jews are saved and obviously they never heard of Jesus either. But what does the Bible say regarding them?

Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Along the same lines, Hebrews 11 speaks about a lot of the notable OT figures who were reconciled to God by their faith. Since no man come to the Father but by Jesus, it is clear that Jesus' death has the power to save all mankind, even those who came before and who never hear of Him.

What is certain though, is that those who DO hear the Gospel and subsequently reject Jesus, are not saved. Jesus speaks directly to the Jews who thought they were just like Abraham:

John 8:39-40
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things."

Having then heard of Jesus and rejected Him, Jesus makes it clear that they are not saved in the same manner that Abraham was. For if they were truly believers in God, as they claimed to be and as was Abraham, then they would necessarily understand who Jesus is and then believe in Him.

So it is for all of us. If we hear of Jesus but still reject Him, then we have made the choice not to accept God's forgiveness and salvation. And even not having heard, that same choice is made by all people and has the same consequences, since God provides all mankind with the fundamental knowledge of who He is. (One reason why I can't accept Atheists when say that they can't believe in any god whatsoever)

I know PL will object to this understanding of scripture, and should he choose to respond, I'll leave both reponses to stand on themselves. The decision on what coincides with the nature of a loving God is yours to make...

[Canuckster1127]

Is everyone that does not believe in Jesus going to hell.

The answer is no. Someone who hasn't heard of Jesus can still be saved, because God reveals Himself to them in other ways. It is their heart - their faith - by which they are judged.

Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The passage states that God makes 'plain' to them what is necessary to be known. Every human makes the choice whether to follow God or not. If not through the message of the Gospel, then through 'what has been made'; through nature. So IMO there could be buddhists or whatever that know about God and have faith in Him, and are thus saved without hearing the name 'Jesus.'

Further, we know that the Jews are saved and obviously they never heard of Jesus either. But what does the Bible say regarding them?

Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Along the same lines, Hebrews 11 speaks about a lot of the notable OT figures who were reconciled to God by their faith. Since no man come to the Father but by Jesus, it is clear that Jesus' death has the power to save all mankind, even those who came before and who never hear of Him.

What is certain though, is that those who DO hear the Gospel and subsequently reject Jesus, are not saved. Jesus speaks directly to the Jews who thought they were just like Abraham:

John 8:39-40
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things."

Having then heard of Jesus and rejected Him, Jesus makes it clear that they are not saved in the same manner that Abraham was. For if they were truly believers in God, as they claimed to be and as was Abraham, then they would necessarily understand who Jesus is and then believe in Him.

So it is for all of us. If we hear of Jesus but still reject Him, then we have made the choice not to accept God's forgiveness and salvation. And even not having heard, that same choice is made by all people and has the same consequences, since God provides all mankind with the fundamental knowledge of who He is. (One reason why I can't accept Atheists when say that they can't believe in any god whatsoever)

I know PL will object to this understanding of scripture, and should he choose to respond, I'll leave both reponses to stand on themselves. The decision on what coincides with the nature of a loving God is yours to make...

Felgar,

I'm not sure I agree completely with this.

Aside from the exclusive claims made by Christ which make some of this position problematic, I think the examples of OT saints you provide would argue that there was a looking forward to the work of Christ by faith, despite its not having yet been completed. That is a very much different proposition than claiming a more universal standard before and especially after the fact of Christ's resurrection.

The primary passage from Romans seems not to be arguing that men can be saved outside of the message of Christ, but rather that natural revelation is sufficient basis for condemnation when you read the entire argument as it progresses.

Practically, if one accepts that only a few who hear the gospel will respond, wouldn't evangelism then serve to condemn more people than to save them? Why evangelize if the net result is to seal condemnation for most who hear and those who do hear and respond may have been judged by God in view of their not hearing the message to a lower standard?

At the very least, shouldn't you at least argue that if there is any salvation outside of personal belief and exposure to the Gospel that God performs that still upon the basis of Christ's propitiation of sin? If Christ is the only means of salvation then it must somehow tie into the finished work of Christ, or else that claim has no meaning.

I suspect I will not completely agree with all the PL has to say either in this realm, but I respectfully disagree with what I think you are saying here.

Please correct me if I am reading something in or misunderstanding what you are saying.

Bart

[puritan lad]

Felgar, I'm stunned…

Scripturally speaking,

Point #1. Those in Romans 1 were not saved, but “The wrath of God is being revealed…”

Point #2. The OT Jews were saved by Christ. Those who reject Christ (the Pharisees) go to Hell (Matthew 23:33).

Point #3, Abraham was saved by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

No one can be saved without Christ. It is Christ or Hell, no other options.

[bizzt]

Felgar, I'm stunned…

Scripturally speaking,

Point #1. Those in Romans 1 were not saved, but “The wrath of God is being revealed…”

Point #2. The OT Jews were saved by Christ. Those who reject Christ (the Pharisees) go to Hell (Matthew 23:33).

Point #3, Abraham was saved by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

No one can be saved without Christ. It is Christ or Hell, no other options.

I agree with that. I Believe at one point as with Abraham one has to be saved by the Gospel of Christ.

[Felgar]

I think the examples of OT saints you provide would argue that there was a looking forward to the work of Christ by faith, despite its not having yet been completed. That is a very much different proposition than claiming a more universal standard before and especially after the fact of Christ's resurrection.

Not sure what you mean here... I'm saying that Abraham trusted God for his salvation and that was enough. I'm saying that he did that prior to a full understanding of the eventual means of his salvation, which of course was Jesus Christ. You have an objection to that?

The primary passage from Romans seems not to be arguing that men can be saved outside of the message of Christ, but rather that natural revelation is sufficient basis for condemnation when you read the entire argument as it progresses.

But condemnation is vaccuous without an alternative... You say that 'natural revelation is sufficient basis for condemnation' and I agree, and I'll make the point that the Law is exactly the same... I see a parallel between natural revelation and time before Christ. We are told that 'all are called,' not just that those who heard about Jesus are called.

Practically, if one accepts that only a few who hear the gospel will respond, wouldn't evangelism then serve to condemn more people than to save them? Why evangelize if the net result is to seal condemnation for most who hear and those who do hear and respond may have been judged by God in view of their not hearing the message to a lower standard?

I would claim that a far greater proportion of people who hear the Good News accept it, than those who accept God through His natural revelation. It's easier to see the truth when it's all right there to be read and understood (the Bible) than to discern it from nature.

At the very least, shouldn't you at least argue that if there is any salvation outside of personal belief and exposure to the Gospel that God performs that still upon the basis of Christ's propitiation of sin? If Christ is the only means of salvation then it must somehow tie into the finished work of Christ, or else that claim has no meaning.

I completely agree here - it is ALL based on Christ's propitiation of sin. I'm not sure where you got that I wouldn't think that. I'm just saying that I do think there IS salvation outside of personal exposure to the Gospel. And you certainly disagree with that? Maybe you just misunderstood what I've meant...