Article for reasons to believe the bible

[godslanguage]

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/genesis.htm

[Canuckster1127]

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/genesis.htm

That is an interesting thread and pretty consisitent with much of the material on our main board.

I'm not surprised at the representation that many YEC proponents went silent and did not engage with this thread. Most are not equipped to do so. Where they are equipped, they are not necessarily inclined.

YEC proponents often see debate as a means of "evangelizing" their position. They are not necessarily inclined to interact and modify their claims or beliefs. They simply see it as a vehicle to put their claims out and then point to their interaction in this manner as evidence of the reasonableness of their position.

When you examine the majority of YEC sites and published material however, what you see is a very static position with little interaction in the debate itself beyond assertions based upon appeals to authority and their position being superior because it is "Biblical."

There are exceptions. I'm hopeful this will continue to change and develop.

In the meantime, however, I believe it is a legitimate criticism and one which YEC proponents need to work to overcome.

[tyler_demerhcant]

yes, I agree with canuckster.

[godslanguage]

I also agree with Canukster. But I also disagree with a couple of things. For one, I disagree that we should be battling out with YEC'rs. The most important thing is that they believe in God and believe in the bible. Whether it be a younger interpretation that may in fact not completely go hand in hand with the bible and science or OEC which tries to be consistent with both. The facts are clear, in some way, shape or form, God created the heavens and the earth and created humans by whichever means, this is what OEC and YEC both believe in, and I think that is consistent and the most important. YEC and OEC both believe in Jesus Christ the son of God, what else matters? We can discuss the scientific evolutionary theories all we like, but in the end, the basic foundation of beliefs is the same.

[Canuckster1127]

I also agree with Canukster. But I also disagree with a couple of things. For one, I disagree that we should be battling out with YEC'rs. The most important thing is that they believe in God and believe in the bible. Whether it be a younger interpretation that may in fact not completely go hand in hand with the bible and science or OEC which tries to be consistent with both. The facts are clear, in some way, shape or form, God created the heavens and the earth and created humans by whichever means, this is what OEC and YEC both believe in, and I think that is consistent and the most important. YEC and OEC both believe in Jesus Christ the son of God, what else matters? We can discuss the scientific evolutionary theories all we like, but in the end, the basic foundation of beliefs is the same.

Do you think YEC proponents or OEC proponents tend to be more accepting of others positions and promote tolerance in this manner?

I agree that one can be of either position and that it is not a cardinal issue for salvation.

It is not an unimportant issue however. One's view in this area establishes a hermenuetical foundation that has implications elsewhere, including cardinal doctrines.

Further, YEC proponents (and I'll concede that not all do this) have consistently made strong efforts to make this a litmus test of belief in Seminary admissions, Ordination requirements, teaching positions, etc. and to exclude anyone who does not adhere to their beliefs in this regard in some major denominations.

I have been affected by these attitudes in the past personally and professionally. Further, I have good Christian friends who have had their professional lives and reputations absolutely eviscerated and ruined by these actions and attitudes.

There is a practical implication as well for those who are not Christians and observe the scientific fallacies, ignorance and stubborness evidenced by YEC propenents who seek to influence education policies, and continually advance "scientific" theories that have been discredited not only by scientists but also by knowlegeable YEC proponents who to their credit have taken a strong degree of intellectual integrity and seek to support the position in an intellectually honest and consistent manner.

There are some very good and very effective YEC proponents who are seeking to do important work in studying and defending their position and I have a great deal of respect for them. As a perecentage of the movement, they are a minority and frankly take as much or more heat from their own camp as they do from OEC'rs, Theistic Evolutions or even Secular Evolutionists.

I think the primary responsibility to maintain integrity in Christian Teaching lies with Christians. Accepting error in the name of tolerance when such error clearly has a great impact upon Christian's lives and professions as well as the impact of the Gospel upon those who are not Christians, but who equate YEC error in this regard as the equivilent of Scripture, is an issue worth contending for, in my opinion.

I am passionate on this topic and I without apology will confront things of this nature when I come in contact with them. The purpose is not to create contention or strife for its own sake. It is to challenge Christian people to do more than simply parrot things that many of them have no real knowlege of and yet they equate them as fundamental to faith and belief in the Bible.

If they were only affecting themselves, that might be another matter. They are impacting the Church when they seek to go further than simple debate and raise it to excluding people from ministry and further create a barrier to the Gospel.

That is worth contending for, although I agree and am personally striving to keep my words and efforts in this area as kind and understanding as I can.

I on occassion have to check my self in this area and know I am far from perfect. You here on the board have my permission to call me on it when you see it and I'll seek to be sensitive to it. However, I will not compromise or draw back from addressing these kinds of issues when I see them.

I hope that helps others to see where I'm coming from and to put things in context.

[godslanguage]

"I hope that helps others to see where I'm coming from and to put things in context."

Definetely, I know exactly where your coming from and others do as well.

[FFC]

I also agree with Canukster. But I also disagree with a couple of things. For one, I disagree that we should be battling out with YEC'rs. The most important thing is that they believe in God and believe in the bible. Whether it be a younger interpretation that may in fact not completely go hand in hand with the bible and science or OEC which tries to be consistent with both. The facts are clear, in some way, shape or form, God created the heavens and the earth and created humans by whichever means, this is what OEC and YEC both believe in, and I think that is consistent and the most important. YEC and OEC both believe in Jesus Christ the son of God, what else matters? We can discuss the scientific evolutionary theories all we like, but in the end, the basic foundation of beliefs is the same.

Thank you.

And Canuckster, there are idiots in every area of life...including YECers and OECers...your post kind of put me on the defensive. I read a lot of generalization in there.

[Canuckster1127]

I also agree with Canukster. But I also disagree with a couple of things. For one, I disagree that we should be battling out with YEC'rs. The most important thing is that they believe in God and believe in the bible. Whether it be a younger interpretation that may in fact not completely go hand in hand with the bible and science or OEC which tries to be consistent with both. The facts are clear, in some way, shape or form, God created the heavens and the earth and created humans by whichever means, this is what OEC and YEC both believe in, and I think that is consistent and the most important. YEC and OEC both believe in Jesus Christ the son of God, what else matters? We can discuss the scientific evolutionary theories all we like, but in the end, the basic foundation of beliefs is the same.

Thank you.

And Canuckster, there are idiots in every area of life...including YECers and OECers...your post kind of put me on the defensive. I read a lot of generalization in there.

Tell me what you disagree with and why and we can discuss it.

[FFC]

Tell me what you disagree with and why and we can discuss it.

I don't know. I just came away feeling like it was a "them against us" post and it felt like an attack. I did read your post again though and I could see your point on many of your issues.

[Canuckster1127]

Tell me what you disagree with and why and we can discuss it.

I don't know. I just came away feeling like it was a "them against us" post and it felt like an attack. I did read your post again though and I could see your point on many of your issues.

I'll confess to easily slipping into an us vs them mode. It's hard not to respond in kind to what I've experienced and perceived from YEC camps. That doesn't make it rigt on my side. Disagreement and vigorous debate is not wrong to pursue when the issue is important.

Lest you think I'm incapable of cooperation and understanding however, I will be partnering with a YEC brother at my Church this weekend to participate in an open forum/debate at my Church on Sunday to discuss issues with proponents of Intelligent Design and Theistic evolution in an Adult Education Class. We've debated each other publically in a prior setting. Now we're together to represent creationism.

I think YEC can be a viable position, but in its popular form, which is the majority of people espousing and presenting it, I find serious problems.

I believe there are some good points scripturally to YEC. I think there are a few scientific issues that YEC proponents raise points where there are no good answers due to insufficient evidence. I think a person can be YEC, and reasonable and fair in these issues.

So, I am not here to question the salvation or the sincerity of those who disagree with me and hold to a YEC position. I do however, respectfully question the position and I believe that more militantism and exclusionary tactics have come from the YEC side than the OEC side and I don't think a reasonable person could conclude otherwise.