Catastrophism

[John T]

Hello all,

I am new here and this is my first post.

As you all know, there are many instances in the Bible where catastrophic events have occurred causing destructions of many kinds.

I will not list them all but certainly one of the most well known catastrophes was that of the Exodus.

I have been studying the subject of catastrophism for many years and do believe that the apparent natural causes of these upheavals might contain some element of truth.

To be very brief, by mentioning but two instances, it has been purported that the fundamental cause of the events that brought about the Exodus was a close-passing of the Earth into the extended cometary tail-part of proto-Venus around 1450 BC.

As astonishingly incredible as this sounds (even ridiculous to some for sure), there are a whole host of prominent scholars/scientists that hold to this explanation.

Also, the destruction of the Assyrian army of Sennacherib being due to a "blast from heaven", charred the soldier's bodies leaving their garments intact.
The dead numbered 185,000.

The "blast from heaven" may have been caused by a great thunderbolt or a series of thunderbolts that occurred between a close passing of the planet Mars and the Earth in 687 BC on the evening of March 23rd, the first night of the Hebrew passover.

There are many other similar catastrophic explanations too, backed up both by myth and legends from all around the world that agree with many Biblical statements both factually and chronologically.

So, what are these planets (Venus and Mars) doing wandering about in the near vicinity of our Earth in those ancient times?

Well, its a long-long story and too incredible to mention in such a short post as this.

However, be that as it may, I will not therefore enter into the many details of what I have learned about these catastrophes and their various causes etc, because such details are comparatively irrelevant to the nature of this discussion, which is to say:

I have wondered on numerous occasions whether God in his infinite wisdom and power, may have utilized certain "natural" forces, even errant planets, in order to bring about his divine will.

What do you think?

Regards

John

[Canuckster1127]

Hello all,

I am new here and this is my first post.

As you all know, there are many instances in the Bible where catastrophic events have occurred causing destructions of many kinds.

I will not list them all but certainly one of the most well known catastrophes was that of the Exodus.

I have been studying the subject of catastrophism for many years and do believe that the apparent natural causes of these upheavals might contain some element of truth.

To be very brief, by mentioning but two instances, it has been purported that the fundamental cause of the events that brought about the Exodus was a close-passing of the Earth into the extended cometary tail-part of proto-Venus around 1450 BC.

As astonishingly incredible as this sounds (even ridiculous to some for sure), there are a whole host of prominent scholars/scientists that hold to this explanation.

Also, the destruction of the Assyrian army of Sennacherib being due to a "blast from heaven", charred the soldier's bodies leaving their garments intact.
The dead numbered 185,000.

The "blast from heaven" may have been caused by a great thunderbolt or a series of thunderbolts that occurred between a close passing of the planet Mars and the Earth in 687 BC on the evening of March 23rd, the first night of the Hebrew passover.

There are many other similar catastrophic explanations too, backed up both by myth and legends from all around the world that agree with many Biblical statements both factually and chronologically.

So, what are these planets (Venus and Mars) doing wandering about in the near vicinity of our Earth in those ancient times?

Well, its a long-long story and too incredible to mention in such a short post as this.

However, be that as it may, I will not therefore enter into the many details of what I have learned about these catastrophes and their various causes etc, because such details are comparatively irrelevant to the nature of this discussion, which is to say:

I have wondered on numerous occasions whether God in his infinite wisdom and power, may have utilized certain "natural" forces, even errant planets, in order to bring about his divine will.

What do you think?

Regards

John

John,

Welcome to the board first of all. Glad to have you aboard.

In terms of natural explanations along the lines of what you've stated, I think there often times can be natural explanations for catastrophic occurances referenced in the Bible.

You have to weigh each instance on its own merits.

Within the entire context you also have to understand that God's existence does not require a natural explanation in every instance. Science however is only capable of examining evidence within the context of the natural ultimately. Supernatural intervention cannot be measured or observed directly and cannot be recreated.

You'll find many threads here dealing with such issues. You may want to check out those on Uniformitarianism to consider some of the past material discussed, but feel free to look around and join in where you see fit.

Welcome again!

Bart

[Felgar]

While I think the Mars/Venus explanations are pretty sketchy, I don't see any reason why God wouldn't/couldn't use imminent natural events for his purposes... Or He could have just done it all supernatural. Either way is fine by me.

I think one of the best examples of natural phenomenon being used is probably at Jericho. Doing a search on infrasound will show some pretty crazy things that very loud and very low frequency sound can do. In the case of Jericho even a simple harmonic resonance could probably have caused the walls to collapse. Did the hand of God actually push the walls, or did God instruct the men at Jericho how to produce the sounds that would act to destroy the walls? Does it really matter one way or the other?

[John T]

Thankyou for your warm welcome Bart and thanks for your reply Felgar.

As suggested I have scouted around the site a bit and have read the topic on Uniformitarianism.

Unfortuneately (at least for me), nowhere on this site have I come across the topic of catastrophes involving the apparent meanderings of errant planets in the comparative recent past.

Hasn't anyone heard of the late Immanuel Velikovsky and his successful predictions regarding certain aspects of the planets Venus, Jupiter and Mars long before their discoveries by present day science?

I wrote in my opening post:

> "I have wondered on numerous occasions whether God in his infinite wisdom and power, may have utilized certain "natural" forces, even errant planets, in order to bring about his divine will."

Velikovsky used numerous Biblical quotes in his writings and gradually a theory of certain errant planets was developed from them, being the result of many extremely detailed investigations and research.
There were no preconceived ideas at all, as the theory was also similarly engendered from ancient mythology and legends around the world.

For instance, in reading Joshua 10: 12,13 Velikovsky wondered whether the sun and moon really did stand still when pursuing the Canaanite kings at Beth-horon.
This is to say that for some reason the Earth must have momentarily ceased in its rotation "So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day" until the enemies were avenged.
A divine act for sure, but perhaps God was utilizing natural forces that even today we currently do not understand ie the possibility of encountering a close passing object of planetary dimensions.

I believe the Bible to be inerrant.
Therefore, when it is written that the sun stood still (upon Gibeon) and the moon stayed (in the valley of Ajalon), then in my understanding also, this event really did happen.

Similar reports occurred around the world (which I will not go into here) with prolonged nights, evening etc depending on the location, so these alone bear out the fact that the story of Joshua was a true event.

Similarly with Jericho's walls, which were breached by the sound of trumpets, they might actually have fallen due to the occasion of a pre-ordained earthquake immediately following the deafening trumpet sounds, as the Earth in those days was in a state of turmoil due to the effects of close planetary encounters.

I think the validity of these events do matter, because to understand exactly what happened during those ancient times enables us to better understand our Earth today, its peoples, their thinking and the manner upon which certain religions have established themselves, particularly with superstiousness and other beliefs of incredulity.

Comments welcome.

John

[Canuckster1127]

John,

I'll pick back up on this and apologize for not giving it more attentions.

Would it be possible for you to provide a few links to sites dealing with these issue so that I can improve my familiarity with the issues in order to comment on them better?

Thanks!

Bart

[sandy_mcd]

I have wondered on numerous occasions whether God in his infinite wisdom and power, may have utilized certain "natural" forces, even errant planets, in order to bring about his divine will.

Hi John,
I'm a big fan of this idea. I remember when I was quite young reading that the Ark of the Covenant with gold on either side of acacia wood might have acted as a capacitor. Whether or not that is reasonable, I like the concept of God using natural forces. So the thunderbolts you mention might have reasonably appeared all on their own; the influence of God is where (or whom) they hit. This is similar to the low-frequency (resonant?) sound waves affecting the walls of Jericho.
On the other hand, I am not so sure that these wandering planets make much sense, but that is an entirely separate issue.

[John T]

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies.

Sorry for the slight delay as I've recently been away.

Bart wrote:

> "Would it be possible for you to provide a few links to sites dealing with these issue so that I can improve my familiarity with the issues in order to comment on them better?"

I sure would like to, but I appear to have a format problem on my old computer, which is to say, any url only comes out in black print.

Perhaps the best idea would be to Google 'Velikovsky' and the result should give you a wealth of information to choose from.
In fact 'Wikipedia' gives a pretty good overview with lots of links.

Velikovsky published eight books, the first being 'Worlds in Collision', which is where I began my studies of the subject some 30-odd years ago and the last books, 'Stargazers and Gravediggers' and particularly 'Mankind in Amnesia' were both published posthumously.

As I mentioned earlier, there are numerous Biblical quotes throughout many of his works and these I think still need to be addressed and interpreted in the right context in that, were such events "miracles", or were they actual physical occurrences involving wandering planets (perhaps under God's divine control - which is presently my current tentative opinion.)

As sandy_mcd wrote:

> "On the other hand, I am not so sure that these wandering planets make much sense, but that is an entirely separate issue."

That is what I thought in the early days, the whole idea of errant planets seemed quite preposterous, but reading on, the idea became quite realistic leading to events such as the Biblical Exodus etc to be actual real physical occurrences, including the fall of manna and 50 years later the account of the "Sun and Moon standing still" as mentioned in Joshua 10:12,13.

As I mentioned in my opening post, there are other occurrences too such as the destruction of the Assyrian army of Sennacherib being due to a "blast from heaven", which mysteriously charred the soldier's bodies leaving their garments intact.
The dead numbered 185,000.

Astonishing!

Of course mainstream science does not hold to these apparently absurd ideas and I can see their point when only considering the effects of gravity as being the prime mover.

However, with the introduction of electromagnetic forces into the equation and that electric currents can and do flow in space (Plasma Cosmology), the possibilities take on a whole new reality.

Besides the Biblical quotes, much is also supported by numerous myth and legend from around the world.
Also interestingly, the Biblical text of Exodus virtually mirrors the accounts given on a papyrus by a certain Egyptian sage called 'Ipuwer'.

Of course, all theories have their critics and it is worth noting their views too (see Immanual Velikovsky - Wikipedia)

To end with, allow me to give you an account of Velikovsky's thoughts from a much earlier time (ie before the Venus/Mars catastrophes) by quoting an extract from 'Mankind in Amnesia', Chap III pp 99 - 'THE FEAST OF LIGHT':

QUOTE: The "light of seven days" of which Isaiah speaks (Isaiah 30:26) refers, in my understanding, to the "seven days" just before the beginning of the Deluge (Genesis 7:4).
The whole world was brilliantly lit: Saturn flared as a nova. Its light was unbearably bright ("like that of a hundred suns" in rabbinical lore). Saturn or Cronos, Tammuz, Osiris - all were brilliant gods before being extinguished. A universal deluge followed in which not only the Earth, but the entire solar system was bathed. Water on Earth increased several fold. It appears that the Atlantic, the younger ocean, then first came into being. It was called the Sea of Cronos. On the Earth many forms of life perished in the Deluge, and many new genera of animal and plant life came into being in mutations on a scale unprecedented in human memory. This made Osiris or Tammuz or Cronos appear as a god of vegetation.
Jupiter collected much of the dispersed material and, rotating ever more swiftly, underwent fission.
Saturn, prominent in the sky - possibly even the star around which the Earth revolved - became invisible until once again found, now with rings around it. The Greek legend made Jupiter a son of Saturn, in the sense that Jupiter took over dominion of the sky. It was also Jupiter who put Saturn in bonds. But in the Egyptian way of viewing the celestial drama, it was Isis (Jupiter), the spouse of Osiris (Saturn) who wrapped him in swathes, the way the deceased are dressed for their journey to the world of the dead, over which Osiris reigns.
The feast of light in memory of Saturn was observed by the Romans as Saturnalia at the end of December. The observance of this festival was taken over by the Jewish Hanukkah and then by the festival of Christmas. The observance of festivals of light was universal, because the Deluge was a universal experience.END QUOTE.

Comments welcome.

John

[sandy_mcd]

Saturn, prominent in the sky - possibly even the star around which the Earth revolved - became invisible until once again found, now with rings around it.

How do you know the "old" Saturn is the same as the "new" Saturn?

[John T]

sandy_mcd wrote:

How do you know the "old" Saturn is the same as the "new" Saturn?

Its a long, long story, but simply put, Saturn was once a small brown dwarf star that was captured by the Sun.

Saturn in those times was much larger than the Saturn that we know of today, because since those earlier times the original Saturn had undergone great internal electrical stress and had partitioned (fissioned) several times.

Prior to capture by the Sun, Saturn had a huge gaseous envelope within which the Earth, Mars and other planets orbited about and also within the confines of what is known as a 'polar configuration' or "shish-kebab" set-up.

This was the 'Golden Age' or the 'age of the purple dawn' where temperatures across the Earth were mild, temperate and uniform throughout.
Only Saturn and its phases were observed (in the Northern regions) and the luminary remained there apparently unmoved in the sky.

For peoples on the Earth everything was peaceful and joyous.
Conflicts and wars etc were unheard of and a period of universal calm existed throughout.
Due to the prevailing and protective atmosphere of Saturn, stars were not yet seen and our Sun (following capture) was just a secondary slightly luminous orb observed only in the southern hemisphere through the dense atmosphere of Saturn.

However, as time passed and the prevailing stress between Saturn and the Sun built up, Saturn eventually went into a Nova condition (planetary-wide lightning/fissioning) and the whole system broke up.

Apparently, Genesis 1 describes the sequence of events that occurred during those times ie "let there be light", "stars" seen on the 4th day etc.

I know I have been very brief and sketchy on this subject because I am no authority, but I have attended several meetings that discussed this whole idea in some detail.

Papers and books have been written that describe these events which are also backed-up by an whole wealth of mythology and earth sciences etc.

Since Velikosky, it seems that Dave Talbott and Dwardu Cardona are now the principle researchers of this theory and themselves have both been recently published - 'Thunderbolts of the Gods' and 'God Star' respectively.

Whereas I do agree with some of the Velikovskian principles here and there (though I am not a Velikovsky sympathiser), the "Saturnian Theory" is I think, taking things a bit too far and I do have my own reasons for this.

So, to answer your question, the "new" Saturn, the planet that we observe today (with "fresh-looking" rings around it that interestingly, are decaying), is but a remnant of the much larger "old" Saturn in those earlier times.

To learn more on this subject (much more than I could tell you), perhaps try Googling 'The Saturn Theory' where the theory is described in more detail and questions etc answered.

I would like to know your opinions on the matter.

Regards

John

[Canuckster1127]

JohnT,

Sorry for being slow in responding.

I did google Velikosky and read in particular the Wikipedia article regarding him.

I have been gloriously ignorant of him to this point, and so obviously I can't and won't attempt to give any strong response or opinion.

My initial response is that it appears to be very far-fetched in many regards, however, it appears that he did indeed make some predictions and conclusions that appear to have been realized, although whether for the reasons he offers, are debatable.

That said, I'll try (when time permits ) to look at some more of it and try to understand it.

I have no objections to "naturalistic" explanations of catastrophic events. Where the Bible attributes such events to God's intervention and will, since God created and set in motion the laws of nature, it is not inconsistent that God would utilize them as He sees fit.

Sorry i can't say more. Thanks for drawing my attention to it. It looks very interesting.

Bart