Serious question - Really nervous

[Vash]

EDIT:

So, believe the Gospel, and know that you are saved!!! Work out the other stuff after that

Don't you have to believe God exist first? I mean doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible "He who doesn't believe God exist can't possibly accept Jesus as their saviour"? I mean, I know doubts are normal but this seems almost like agnosticism, since the doubt comes from the heart (which is where faith should be held).

Or do I have a misinterpretation of that verse too?

[ttoews]

The wonderful thing is that the Gospel is so objective. I can totally renounce my faith and come back in ten years and say, "I don't believe it anymore, but that old book says that if I trust Jesus, I'm saved. I used to trust Him, so if I'm wrong now and my old faith was true, then I'm still saved." That's the nature of assurance!

Jac, my life got extremely busy and so I thought I'd just wait on your promise to deal with a few passages on the other thread. My life is a little less insanely busy at the moment, so please allow me a few quick comments:

What your are describing is not objectivity and not just assurance. What you are suggesting is that salvation is achieved by way of a unilateral contract that is irrevocable by either party (by either word or deed). In point form the unilateral contract you describe is as follows:
a) Jesus makes the offer to save you
b) you accept that offer (and thereby form the contract) by simply believing that He has made such an offer; and
c) and once the contract is formed, God and you are both unable/powerless to rescind the contract

...nothing you have put forward makes that proposition look less than absurd (from my humble perspective )

What's more, is that it seems that you have claimed that anyone that doesn't believe that salvation takes the form of this unilateral contract is calling Christ a liar. That is needlessly inflammatory. Someone (such as me) who does not see salvation as being the unilateral contract you describe, simply understands Christ to have described salvation differently than do you. As such, it is that I understand Christ's words differently than do you, and the one of us that is wrong simply misunderstands our Lord and is not calling Him a liar.

[Felgar]

I can't see how it is obsurd to say that we receive salvation by believing, when so many verses say just that. John 3:16 obviously.

Acts 16:29-31
The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

Pretty simple. Though we are encouraged to study God's word and seek to always know him better, there are also many places where we are told to come Jesus with 'childlike innocence.' Something like this is what I think it's talking about. Someone who just reads John 3:16, Ephasians 2:8, Romans 3:22, Phillipians 3:9, John 1:12, etc etc will understand that because I believe in Jesus the Son of God, I am saved. There's no reason to complicate the matter on this level. Vash and anyone else like him can has assurance that once he has faith, he is most certainly saved.

Oh, there's Luke 7:48-50 too...
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Her sins were forgiven because she believed, and at that moment, she was saved for eternity (because eternal salvation is what it means to be saved). Jesus didn't say "your continued faith will save you." He said "you are saved" to the woman, and He continues, through His Holy Word, to say the very same words today to Vash and anyone else who believes.

[Jac3510]

Bravo, Felgar! Vash, read that post a few times over . . . outstanding stuff

As far as believing in God goes before you can be saved, I don't believe you have to be 100% convinced about God before you can trust Christ. Some of it is a logical precursor, of course, but to what extent? Must you believe that God simply exists, or must you then extend it to the belief that it is a particular God, and if so, what about such features as omniscience, omnipotenece, etc? Does that mean if you misdefine some of God's traits then you have not really "believed in God"? Or what if you simply can't, in your humanity, understand and accept some Scriptural truths about God? Does that mean you aren't saved? Again, as a logical precursor, you have to have some concept of God, but I'd be careful in stating how much you have to know or understand.

Faith - the ability to trust - grows as you mature in your walk. Right now, you have the capacity to accept or reject the gospel. Jesus Christ has offered you salvation on the simple terms that you accept it from Him. He can make such an offer because of His divinity, because He died on the cross and rose from the dead, etc. The whole thing is very logical and makes wonderful sense, and anyone on these boards is more than capable of walking you through the details. But, what it all comes down to is the simple question: do you now, or have you ever, believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life? Check out John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:47, John 20:31, and Acts 16:31. Do you believe?

Let me take this a step further as well. What we are saying here is the Gospel. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe the Gospel. That's why I keep asking you if you believe it . . . do you believe what Jesus said, that if you believe in Him, you will be saved? I understand that you have a ton of questions and doubts and so much doesn't make sense. What I am saying to you, right now, is to put those doubts on hold and decide whether or not you believe the words of Jesus. He said He will save you if you believe in Him. Do you believe in Him to save you?

Yet again, if you get all that taken care of, we can start on the other issues one by one. They take a lifetime to get through. That is why we have discipleship.

God bless

P.S. -- ttoews, I had forgotten about those passages. My bad. I'll spend today, working on them . . . maybe a bit into tomorrow, as we may be taking a trip up to Frip Island this afternoon after a wedding I'm attending. Either way, I've got this weekend off, and some of those passages are really fun to exegete, so I'll get that to you by tomorrow night.

As for the substance of your post, let's not derail this thread. We can open a new one or take it up via email if that is your preference: cmm1005@yahoo.com

[ttoews]

I can't see how it is obsurd to say that we receive salvation by believing, when so many verses say just that. John 3:16 obviously.

the absurdity is not found in points a) and b), but in point c). By reducing salvation to something akin to a unilateral contract, God is rendered powerless to rescind the contract. Doesn't the use of "powerless" to describe God strike you as absurd? Now you might want to say God is still omnipotent but chooses not to exercise that power (like Jesus on the cross), but that doesn't seem to be the way this unilateral contract is described by your camp.

Further, the whole concept ignores the omniscience of God and in particular His ability to see what and how the person in question will believe throughout the rest of that person's life. Jac denies it, but the result (from my perspective) is that God will be mocked by some of the very people that He is required to save. That is yet another absurdity.

[bluesman]

I will try my best to put what has been said into simple words.

I don't think anyone is saying that:
You can simply say that you believe Jesus existed and died on the cross
and then thats the end of it......
Just keep on leading your sinful life!

No it doesn't quite work that way!

When it says "believe" it means in the bigger sense of the word.

It also means you believe what Jesus stands for and what he teaches.
(even though you might not yet understand it)

You have to believe that Jesus died for our sins.
Therefore you have to believe in Jesus's divinity (but not necessarily the trinity)
If Jesus was just a simple man then he wouldn't have the power to die
for our sins.
You have to believe Jesus was sinless for him to do this.
or in the least that somehow he had the power to do this.

Accepting Christ into your heart is but the first step.
Think of it as just getting your foot into the door of Heaven.
Once inside do you want to sit in the worst seats for eternity
or would like to see God from a front row seat?


about evolution :

Disproving evolution would be strong evidence for God's existence, thats why some maybe try to.

However, there is an understanding of Creation that God used evolution and the original Hebrew of Old Testament teaches this. Some of us lean in this direction.

Good books for helping your doubt are the Lee Strobel series.
Case of the Creator
Case for Faith
Case for Jesus
They help me a lot in my renewed faith.

I am a strong believer in that works do matter. I can show you the verses that show such. However, lets just start with getting your "foot in the door of Heaven"

Michael
Thomas

[ttoews]

P.S. -- ttoews, I had forgotten about those passages. My bad. I'll spend today, working on them . . . maybe a bit into tomorrow, as we may be taking a trip up to Frip Island this afternoon after a wedding I'm attending. Either way, I've got this weekend off, and some of those passages are really fun to exegete, so I'll get that to you by tomorrow night.

well as long as you are having fun at it...

As for the substance of your post, let's not derail this thread. We can open a new one or take it up via email if that is your preference: cmm1005@yahoo.com

by all means, let's move this back to the other thread.

[ttoews]

I will try my best to put what has been said into simple words.

I don't think anyone is saying that:
You can simply say that you believe Jesus existed and died on the cross
and then thats the end of it......
Just keep on leading your sinful life!

No, that is pretty well Jac's position spot on...I don't doubt that he would say that one should become a disciple, but as long as for one instant in your existence you simply believed then God must save you (as required by the contract) and you will be saved (whether that is still your desire or not).

Please join us on the other thread...where we should be picking this up shortly...if all goes as planned.

[Vash]

What thread is this that you guys speak of?

[FFC]

I can't see how it is obsurd to say that we receive salvation by believing, when so many verses say just that. John 3:16 obviously.

the absurdity is not found in points a) and b), but in point c). By reducing salvation to something akin to a unilateral contract, God is rendered powerless to rescind the contract. Doesn't the use of "powerless" to describe God strike you as absurd? Now you might want to say God is still omnipotent but chooses not to exercise that power (like Jesus on the cross), but that doesn't seem to be the way this unilateral contract is described by your camp.

Further, the whole concept ignores the omniscience of God and in particular His ability to see what and how the person in question will believe throughout the rest of that person's life. Jac denies it, but the result (from my perspective) is that God will be mocked by some of the very people that He is required to save. That is yet another absurdity.

Nobody is saying that God is powerless to do anything. But when He makes a promise to give us eternal life He keeps His word and that should bring a believer great joy. God gave a lot when He sent His son to die on the cross for us to give us eternal life...if some people think that makes him look weak and powerless I doubt that our loving and almighty God cares much about what they think about Him.

[Jac3510]

Vash, see the "Seven Reasons . . . " thread I just added to in the Christian Theology forum.

And ttoews/bluesman: I am not saying all a person has to do is believe that Jesus was crucified. It would be a strawman to put that forward. I am saying that all a person has to do is believe in Jesus for everlasting life and, regardless of how he chooses to live after that, he is saved. I am saying the only way to receive salvation is to believe the Gospel, and that the Bible defines the Gospel as "if you believe in Christ for everlasting life, then you have it."

The Gospel is not repent for everlasting life; it is not commit for everlasting life; it is not be baptized for eternal life. The Gospel is not "believe and repent" or "believe and be baptized" or "believe and keep on believing!" I all that "Andy's Gospel," and Andy is a heretic! ("To be saved, a man must believe, and he must repent, and he must persevere in good works, etc.).

And FFC, perfect way to put the argument. Come check out the other thread. The post I just put up is LONG, but ttoews gave me a ton of stuff to work on.

God bless

fake edit: Vash, I don't want to lose the point we are discussing here. Have you considered what we have been saying? You can know for sure that you are saved if you have simply believed in Jesus. All I want to know is if you have believed in Jesus for everlasting life! What are your thoughts or questions?

[ttoews]

Nobody is saying that God is powerless to do anything. But when He makes a promise to give us eternal life He keeps His word and that should bring a believer great joy.

it is not the believers that I am focusing on....Jac holds that a fellow must believe only for a split second (thereby securing salvation) and can not only disbelieve thereafter, but can actually hate God/ spit in His face etc. and God is still forced to save that fellow. That is the fellow under consideration and I wouldn't call a split second believer, "a believer" nor do I think God gave such a fellow any promise of eternal life. God of course has known since the foundation of the world what exactly that fellow will do...when that fellow will spit in God's face...and yet you think God will still be obliged to save this fellow whilst He is being mocked? Jesus allowed Himself to be mocked to undergo the sacrifice necessary for our salvation....but not again.

Jac says, "The Gospel is not repent for everlasting life; it is not commit for everlasting life; it is not be baptized for eternal life" ....but Jac seems to think that the gospel is "believe for a split second for everlasting life".

Felgar points out, " Jesus didn't say "your continued faith will save you." ...but seems to think that Jesus did say, "Your momentary faith will will save you."

[Jac3510]

ttoews,

Jesus said "He who believes has everlasting life." John 3:16 says, "whosoever believes." If you want to be very technical about John 3:16, it is actually, "all the believing" so far as the Greek reads . . . if you have EVER been considered "a believing" person, then you HAVE right now everlasting life.

Now, I've dealt at least twice with the "God will not be mocked" issue. I understand your concern, but you have been presented a myriad of Scriptures to back the position I am advocating. Can you offer me? ANY Scripture that says that "continued faith" is necessary for salvation?

You can offer "what if" scenarios all you like. Our job is to exegete, interpret, and apply Scripture. The Scriptures say that if someone believes in Christ in a moment of time, then they have everlasting life. God grants them that. God saves them. No one "deserves" salvation, and that's the problem I have behind what you are saying. Basically, it seems to me your argument is an appeal to emotion, and you know that is not the way we interpret the Word of God.

As an aside, do you believe that it is possible for a "real Christian" to ever totally renounce is faith at ANY time in his life? In other words, can a believer ever reject Christ?

With all this said, I do understand your concern about people just saying they are Christians and then living like the devil, apparaently mocking God. But, note the above, none of us deserve salvation . . . not even the best Christian. God being "mocked" has nothing to do with us going to heaven, as I've already demonstrated. There are some severe ramifications for what you believe, though. This thread is a good example. Someone like Vash comes along, and your belief system robs them of the knowledge that they are saved. They live in frustration and fear, which is a hindrance, not a help, to the discipleship process. Please reconsider your position. I'm telling you, because I lived it for ten years, that it puts people in bondage. My walk with Christ is more vibrant than ever before, and I can tell you that many, many others who have come to Grace will tell you the same thing. Don't take that away from people unless you have solid Scripture to back you up. As it stands, I've not seen any yet. However, in our discussion, I've presented dozens and dozens of passages that support very strongly what I am saying. Let's keep this on the exegetical, rather than the emotion, level. Fair enough?

God bless

[Vash]

In fairness, 1 John 2:19 declares, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”

Surely there needs to be a reason for that to be said.

[Jac3510]

Vash,

John was dealing with a certain group of false teachers he labeled as "antichrists," for they denied that Jesus was the Christ. The "us" and "we" pronouns in 1 John, especially in the first chapter, refers to the Apostolic Circle of which John was a part. These false teachers were of this circle.

Many Christians have the false impression that there were only twelve apostles. In reality, there were many . . . now, there were only twelve in the sense of those who formed the foundation of the church, but those were the twelve disciples of Jesus. But the apostolic circle consisted of all of those who had known/seen the resurrected Jesus Christ. We know that from the very first that some of those who saw and associated with Jesus in His resurrected state disbelieved. (Matt. 28:17)

These false teachers were claiming apostolic authority, which is the entire reason John wrote his epistle. Unlike the Judaisers that Paul was dealing with, these people were teaching sinless perfection, that no Christ was needed, denying the resurrection of Christ, etc. John, therefore, wrote to prove that they were "children of the devil." They were "not from among us" -- that is, they were not true believers.

So, the long and short of it is that the false teachers that John was dealing with throughout his epistle had denied that Jesus was the Christ from the very beginning. They eventually proved that they were "not from among us" in their false teaching, lack of love for the brethren, denial of Christ, etc. Thus, John writes to prove that they have no fellowship with the apostles, with the Church, and none with God. The believers should follow John and his associates rather than the false teachers and theirs.

It is not a matter then of these people professing Christ and at some later point denying Him, proving they were never saved. These people never believed, always denied, and as Jesus pointed out, bad trees produce bad fruit, and that's how you know them. They simply proved their nature. So, we are STILL left with the gospel message:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life." ~ Jesus (John 6:47, ESV)

God bless

Edit: for an exegesis of 1 John 1:1-4, which provides a basis for the distinction between the apostolic circle and the false teachers, see this thread. I had forgotten about it . . . I think I may go back and do some work there later this week.