problem with intercessory prayer...

[TT]

I found such a answer from atheist for positive effects of prayer:
http://www.americanatheist.org/smr00/T1/courcey.html

Simply, there was o great difference between health status of prayer group and control group. It can strongly explain why results were so great.

What do you think about that?

[ray]

My experience with almost every scientific study is that if you play with the numbers enough you can get any result you want. It appears that is what this writer did. But then the same can be argued for the people who did the studies originally. If you really want to see if prayer works, don't go to scientific studies. Try to find people ( yes real people ) who have had a miraculous healying through prayer. I have a friend who had most of both lungs removed because of disease and was told his days were numbered. 30 years later he is going strong with 2 full, healthy lungs. Does everyone who is prayed for get healed? No. Why? I have no idea. All I know is that prayer does change things. Unfortunately we cannot know God's plan.

Ray

[TT]

My experience with almost every scientific study is that if you play with the numbers enough you can get any result you want. It appears that is what this writer did. But then the same can be argued for the people who did the studies originally. If you really want to see if prayer works, don't go to scientific studies. Try to find people ( yes real people ) who have had a miraculous healying through prayer. I have a friend who had most of both lungs removed because of disease and was told his days were numbered. 30 years later he is going strong with 2 full, healthy lungs. Does everyone who is prayed for get healed? No. Why? I have no idea. All I know is that prayer does change things. Unfortunately we cannot know God's plan.

Ray

The only thing that seems to me to be dangerous for our faith, is the fact that there have been made 28 simillar experiments like this (concerning intercessory prayer) and in each one there was no significant difference between prayer group and control group. Doesn't it try to tell us that prayer gives no effect? There was a lot of people included for this experiments...

[j316]

What can an atheist say that would have any relevance to your faith? If you believe them you don't have faith, you just have an opinion.

[Believer]

Yes TT, remember that atheists are there to DISPROVE God and EVERYTHING associated with it. They are desperate and will do ANYTHING to make Christians look like fools, when they are the ones who are fools - Psalm 14:1. I came across a news article recently (a couple weeks ago) that said that atheists must now take the "tactics" that Christians use and use those to make them stand out even more. Yes, they are desperate and yes they are being out-numbered. They are drowning in their own foolishness.

[Kievas]

Yes TT, remember that atheists are there to DISPROVE God and EVERYTHING associated with it. They are desperate and will do ANYTHING to make Christians look like fools, when they are the ones who are fools -

That's a pretty broad generalization. Not all atheists are desperate, just as not all Christians are determined to convert everyone they meet.

A friend of mine has been an atheist as long as I can remember. Although we do have interesting conversations, he has no desire to inflict his views on anyone else.

[madscientist]

I thinbk the prayer helps but the problem i see with this is that computer decides (i dont know about this one but read it on G&S somerhere) that people - sufferers are then prayed for, and some other people are told to pray for them. The problem is that nthey pray because they were told to. And they pray for the given person, eg their name or soemthing like thatr. ANd God knows why they pray for him. SO... its too artificial i think.
Because when ypou pray overall for world to be better etc, or yourself, or your friend becaus you love them its different than given 'you pray for Mr X Y) anbd thats it...
Dont know wheher im right but thats my opinion.

[krynn9000]

I think that prayer typically provides spiritual strengthening and guidance from God, not necesarily physical. For example, if I want to become physically stronger, I would lift weights and do aerobic exercise. If I wanted to stay mentally sharp, I would devote time to reading textbooks and study. But when I need some spiritual help I turn to God. This is what I think is the primary benefit of prayer, which of course cannot be measured by a study.

Other than that, I am curious that study after study would show NO positive effects of prayer whatsoever physically. No one seems to be explaining this. I doubt that the data has been "fudged" so anyone else have any ideas?

[Byblos]

I think that prayer typically provides spiritual strengthening and guidance from God, not necesarily physical. For example, if I want to become physically stronger, I would lift weights and do aerobic exercise. If I wanted to stay mentally sharp, I would devote time to reading textbooks and study. But when I need some spiritual help I turn to God. This is what I think is the primary benefit of prayer, which of course cannot be measured by a study.

Other than that, I am curious that study after study would show NO positive effects of prayer whatsoever physically. No one seems to be explaining this. I doubt that the data has been "fudged" so anyone else have any ideas?

How do you know their prayers haven't been answered or will be answered at some point?

How do you account for the countless miracles?

How do you know that God will purposely not respond to experiments like that which are designed to put God in a corner (and we all know how He feels about him being tested, don't we?).

Experiments seek proof. God requires faith. They are mutually exclusive.

God Bless (and I mean that in the intercessory sense ),

Byblos.

[krynn9000]

Good points. I always try to appeal to the unbeliever on logical grounds if possible. The problem always ends up being that the person does not understand their spiritual side, not that there is anything illogical about faith in God.

Personally (miracles aside) I think prayer still helps us in ways we cannot measure well, if at all. All the proof anyone needs of that is to experience it.