Jbuza wrote:Canuckster1127 wrote:Jbuza wrote:
Would it be accurate ot say that many if not most OE basically believe in evolution, but that God caused it? In other words basically everything that Science says is true, but so are God and the Bible.
No that would not be accurate.
Old Earth Creationists by definition believe in creation.
Theistic Evolutionists and evolutions are by definition old earth proponents but they do not utilize scripture primarily in their arguments.
Lumping Old Earth creationists with Evolutionists is a common but fallacious argument made by some YEC proponents to attempt to create a guilt by association type of argument.
It's better to build an argument based upom what you are for than by seeking to paint opponents negatively.
I don't think you're trying to do that here Jbuza, but you're at the edge.
Well I guess I don't see the difference really between saying that God instituted natural laws that caused everyhting to come into being, and saying natural laws casued things to come into being.
You have basically said that you mesh the age determined by interpretation of scientists, and that God instituted some natural laws that caused things to come about with inerrent scripture and Chrsitianity.
I am not trying to paint you anyway at all, but to understand how you have yourself painted.
Perhaps, well no, I'm dense, so it still seems to me like OEs try to mesh evolution and popular scientific thought with God and the Bible. That is not a reflection on you, that is just how things appear to me.
Old Earth Creationists by definition believe in creation.
But if you believe creation is caused by the same natural laws that cause evolution to happen, but that God instituted them, than what is the funcitonal differnce between that and saying many if not most OE basically believe in evolution, but that God caused it? In other words basically everything that Science says is true, but so are God and the Bible.?
Not that all OEs have the exact same view as you, but you seem to be representing them today.
I am willing to adjust my position. Show me the evidence you have to refute an Old Earth either scripturally or scientifically.
I am not interested in refuting OE, but in understanding how two conclusions that are so opposed can come from the same observations.
I think it really comes down to acceptance of conclusions, and suppositions.
Where have I stated that natural laws "caused" anything?
I've stated that God created the universe and everything in it. I think there are elements of that creation that are progressive and worked within natural laws that God established. That's a far cry to what you're inferring from that.
I don't think YEC bases its positions on observation. I think YEC believe the Bible states the earth is ~10,000 years old and therefore it should be provable from creation itself that that is all it is.
I don't think most YEC proponents will be swayed by anything scientific. That is why I believe that there are so many arguments out there that claim to be based in science. When they are refuted, most YEC proponents simply move onto another argument. If push comes to shove, they will attack science itself as the threat. The position is contrarion more than integrative of any science.
YEC as a position equates their hermeneutic of scripture as mutually exculsive of any scientific evidence or interpretation or any other hermeneutic. The position in my experience, and I was raised YEC, is pretty much along the lines of "God said it, I believe it, that settles it."
The problem is that their belief on non-belief is meaningless. If God says something, it is true regardless of anyone's response.
Second, it is not at all settled that YEC or OEC for that matter is a primary purpose of Genesis.
I think OEC is consistent with Scripture. However, as the way we have framed the question is beyond the intent of Genesis, I can accept what scientific study and evidence demonstrate wihout being threatened by it.
That evolutionists build upon the old earth to promote their beliefs does not obligate me to refute an old earth.
I don't belief that evolution has sufficient evidence to prove its claims conclusively.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender