Greetings FCC,
I said I would be in big trouble if you were right because if sin is falsity and I don't believe what you are saying then I am in sin because I'm not believing the truth.
Actually, falsity is the property of evil. Being evil is not a sin….being evil is just what we are due to the fall. When Paul notes that he who lives according to the flesh dies, but he who lives according to the spirit lives. Just because you or I don't understand and believe truth on some level doesn't mean we're “in sin” to the degree you seem to imply. Everything spiritual is
by degree, contrary to the way most of us have been led to think. Most Christians believe one is 'either/or' born again, 'either/or' going to heaven or hell, 'either/or' good or bad. In reality, all creation is fragmented with the properties good and evil. We all have some weak degree of choice between the two, but we aren't “in sin” in a major sense just by not recognizing truth.
The verses you quote above speak nothing of duration, yet you impose the traditional teaching of an eternal hell in yours statement,
It is confusing to me that Jesus would go into graphic detail about people burning in hell forever if He meant something else.
Do you believe that Jesus' detractors—the religious leaders of His day who persecuted and murdered Him—are today and will forever be burning in torment in hell?
This is a great word of hope. By Adam's sin death came into the world, and by Jesus' act of righteousness many are made righteous. But don't forget that Adam with his free will made a decision to eat from that tree which brought sin into the world, so cconverselyby deciding to accept by faith (believing) the work of Christ on the cross, many can have that righteousness. Neither are automatic. Both required a decision.
You've completely sidestepped my question about context, FCC. We weren't discussing free will, but the importance of context in literal interpretation of the Scripture. What is the context intended by Paul of the “many” in
Rom 5:12-19?
Yes, sir, I certainly do [want to know truth].
Tradition has largely failed us….We hate truth. Not all truth, but truth we haven't yet been cleansed to “hear”. Jesus teaches us this in
Jn 3:19. No one comes to Christ unless drawn.
I agree that God in His perfect Holiness can never do anything that contradicts any of His attributes. but God in his love would never force anybody to believe in Him like the Calvinists say. His mercy and love and forgiveness etc are put before us all the days of our lives. If we reject them then what else can He do but exercise His judgement.
First, God doesn't “force” anyone to love Him. He removes the filth that prevents us from loving Him. Once removed, there is no other possible choice in the same sense that one must ultimately admit that freedom and justice are goods to which all humans are entitled.
Second, if you agree that perfection rules God's attributes, then I assume you must be a universalist, and most especially a rational esotericist! When we use God's dualistic design of reality as a lens through which to interpret Scripture, the only perspective that does not violate God's perfection is the rationally esoteric view of applying God's decrees for blessing to the particular individual and wrath to the property of falsity in man's spirit.
As I posted elsewhere on this site some time ago, the Scripture exemplifying this principle is found in God's conversation with Abram on the road to Sodom (
Gen 18), where He establishes that He will not destroy the whole if good is found in it. This is the mystery of salvation.
The idea of an eternal hell violates God's perfection because it destroys the whole individual in whom some good resides. Justice is not meted out perfectly is God destroys good. Jesus Himself taught that this is impossible when He was accused of casting out Satan by the power of Satan. He noted the principle that a house divided will fall. Satan does not cast out demons because falsity is in unity with falsity. Likewise, truth is in consensus and harmony with truth; God is Truth. He will not destroy Himself, else His perfection is violated.
Christ's sacrifice deflected the Father's wrath from individual (particular) to spirit (universal; essence) so that blessing may be poured out on the individual. This is exemplified in Isa 65:8-9:
“Thus says the LORD, 'As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, “Do not destroy it, for there is benefit in it,” So I will act on behalf of My servants In order not to destroy all of them. And I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.'”
Here's the mystery of salvation in a nutshell. There is One who stands in the stead, even though evil permeates the cluster (spirit, fragmented with falsity) of man, yet Christ intercedes to the Father, saying 'Do not destroy, for there is benefit (truth; some degree of life) in it (as per
Jn 1:9). The bringing forth of offspring is spiritual language representing life being brought forth from the midst of destruction of falsity….this is regeneration. Paul understood this principle, as he noted, “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (
Phil 1:21). To die is the destruction of falsity. It's gain because it's regeneration, restoration, sanctification, spiritual life and strengthening. Only the rational esotericist upholds these principles.
Re my use of
Gen 18 to show the principles on which I see a rationally esoteric view of salvation, someone else on this board retorted that the city of Sodom was destroyed, as if to refute the principle I'd presented. In fact, the city (the body) is destroyed because of sin. We all die physically. Falsity is a pathology of imperfection which corrupts and eventually destroys the body, but this has no bearing on salvation, as Jesus noted, “….everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die….” (
Jn 11:26)
If we continue in that sin, depraved that we are or not, then God in His love can do nothing but let us have our way and one day face His awesome judgement at the Great white throne judgement.
You're limiting God, contrary to the Scriptures you claim to believe, FCC….. “….with God all things are possible." (
Mat 19:26).
All through the bible there are dire consequences for disobeying God and great rewards for entering into His rest. These rewards and consequences are not interchangable. What i mean is how could a Holy God allow someone who willfully rejected Him their whole lives be allowed into the place of those who believe in the sacrifice of His son for everlasting life?
I agree that there are consequences for our motives and actions. How could God accept someone who rejects Him all their life? By perfect love, is how.
Thanks for the great questions, Bernie. now I have one for you. What does one do to have everlasting life?
We typically interpret this according to the way we've been taught to think. The Arminian mind frames this question to mean 'What do I have to do to obtain everlasting life'….the Calvinist usually frames it thus: 'What does God have to do in me for me to obtain everlasting life?'
I would agree with the Calvinist that the answer to this is: nothing. But I suspect the answer that's of more relevance might be found in an alternative question: 'What must one do to avoid the roaring flames of hell in the afterlife?'
And thank you for the honorable dialog, FCC.
Everything you've stated does line up with your own rational. I have really never thought about why I should not take the bible literally. that is a foriegn question to me. I read the bible and humbly take God at His word whether I understand it or not. Now, I agree that many can twist the literal word of God to make it fit their theology, but this can usually be cleared up with context, chesking the original language and grammar...or examining it against the Holy attributes of God. To say that fire is not fire, or eternal and everlasting are not forever seems wrong.
