Yes, you've given your position before:Have I ever given my position? I still do not know what I believe on this. I have heard many great arguments but I am not convinced either way. I have had more of a Problem with the way you present your arguments then anything. I find you put God into a box created by Jac and that is how he works everything. Then using that Theology of the Box you then preach the Gospel and say Byblos (using him for an example) because you do not believe in OSAS you are not saved because you believe in a different Salvation then I.
Maybe you've backed off that a bit?Bizzt wrote:Jac may I intercede for a Moment? I am not wanting to get into a "Debate" but more of a Conversation. I agree with Byblos first and foremost. God gave us a free gift for us to choose to follow it or not. If we agree and accept the Lord Jesus into our heart then that Free Gift is ours. HOWEVER at any time because we have free will we can take that Free Gift back to God and say you know what I don't want it anymore. Therefore your Salvation has been taken away!!!! HOWEVER where I might different from Byblos (Don't know if I do) is that you have to give that Free Gift back. You may abuse that free Gift, etc but that Free Gift is still yours until you return it (if you return it)
Now, you go on to say that you have a problem with they way I present my argument. I'm not sure how else to present it? The essence of what I am saying is that if you do not believe the Free Grace Gospel, then you do not believe the Gospel. Free Grace is what Jesus declared, and if you don't believe it, then you don't believe Him. The Lordship gospel is no gospel at all, and as such it has no power to save. Maybe you can help me out a bit here? How would you suggest I explain that concept?
Secondly, how is it different for me to say to an Arminian, "You aren't saved because you haven't believed in the same salvation that I do," and you saying to a Muslim, "You aren't saved because you don't believe in the same salvation that I do." While the Arminian and I may have more common ground, we both believe in different gospels. One, or both, of us have to be wrong, as with you and your Muslim friend.
My point is that you shouldn't get upset about my exclusitivity. That's what atheists and non-believers have complained about since the beginnigg of the Gospel. "What makes you think that YOU are right?" That is what you are saying to me. The Gospel is exclusive by nature. You can't make it inclusive without distorting it.
The Holy Spirit does not bear fruit in the life of anyone who is not regenerate. He will work to convict them of sin, but that's where His ministry stops in the unbeliever's life. You can't look at a person's good works and say, "See, that's the Holy Spirit!" Why? Because false prophets "look" like good Christian people. Just because someone looks like a Christian doesn't make them a Christian.How do you know Jac? Based on what Scriptures? Are you denying the Holy Spirits work in Byblos Life?
This is where I find the most difficulty with OSAS. If one can be Grafted into a Vine can one be Grafted out.
Another Jesus is walking down the road where a fig tree I believe at One Point was producing Fruit but was not anymore. What did he do?
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the way side, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only; and he saith unto it, Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.
The Word is my refreshing waters Jac. I have not seen really 1 scripture in the last few pages. Can you quote a bunch for me in point form so I can look them up and allow the Holy Spirit to minister to me. I might come back and ask a few more questions.
As far as your grafting problem, the reference is to Romans 11, which has to do with the Church being grafted into Israel's salvation. Where does it say that we can be removed? As I told Byblos, if you want to debate the validity of OSAS, open a thread for it. We're pretty much through here, I guess, but I'd rather not take it any further from the original topic than it has already come. In the meantime, I'd suggest looking into the definition of "everlasting" life, and Jesus' statements regarding losing none that were given to Him, for starters. I can present you a legal case for OSAS, a Scriptural case, and a theological case for OSAS. So . . . like I said, if you want to start that thread, go for it. In the meantime, I suggest that you read through the last part of this thread pretty carefully, because I think I present the essence of the need for objective assurance in salvation well enough.
God bless
Felgar: Fair enough on all you said . . . You are definitely in deep waters, LoL. It took me about six months to get through all this. *shrug* That's theology for you, eh?
