confused...post-trib, and God's Wrath??

[puritan lad]

Here is a brief rundown of the common Premillennial Dispensationalist view of future events. (By the way, Mike, no one taught this view before the Plymouth Brethren in the early 1800's. Your quote by Pseudo-Ephraim has already been refuted many times. See http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/deceived.html. See also Jac3510's summary Thomas Ice's arguments at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... c&start=34 and my response in post #39 on that thread)

1.) Russia Invades Israel.
2.) A third Jewish temple is built.
3.) The Resurrection of the Righteous Dead and the Rapture of the Church.
4.) 7-year tribulation begins.
5.) A world dictator arises, takes over the European Union, and signs a peace treaty with Israel.
6.) The dictator is killed, but comes back to life.
7.) Two witnesses preach the gospel in Jerusalem, are killed, and brought back to life.
8.) After 3 ½ years, the dictator breaks the treaty and forces Israel to worship a talking statue (or beast computer). All people worldwide are forced to take the “mark of the beast” in either their foreheads or their hands.
9.) 1/3 of Israel is killed off. God pours out the plagues on planet earth.
10.) Just as Israel is about to be defeated at Armageddon, Jesus returns and slays the world dictator and his armies. He then rules from the rebuilt temple for 1,000 years.
11.) After the 1,000 years are over, Christ puts down a final rebellion. The wicked are resurrected and judged.
12.) Christ's servants reinstitute animal sacrifices in His memory.
13.) Eternity…..

I didn't include any scriptural references because I don't want to presuppose anything. I would like those who hold this view to expound on the above events, put them in their correct order (although there will certainly be no consensus), and give appropriate Scriptures.

[bluesman]

"Inventor of false pre-trib rapture history

Dave MacPherson is an individual who loves to hate pretribulationism. In fact, he has thought up new ways to express his distain for pretribulationism by fabricating a false history of the pre-trib rapture. For the last thirty-plus years, MacPherson has dedicated his life to full time rapture hating in an attempt to participate in anything that he believes will obstruct its spread."

http://www.raptureready.com/who/Dave_MacPherson.html


Yeah I see the history of all this is hotly debated. So from now on when someone tells me pre-tribulation was invented by so and so at such and such a date, I just going to say thats under debate.

I kind of like this site
http://www.raptureready.com/who/Dave_MacPherson.html

It lays out both side pretty much without taking a position either way.

You know what my Pastor said was that there was good arguments on either side. So it like hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
Like hope for a pre-trib rapture and prepare to go through the tribulation.

I know for many to go through tribulation without a sign from God will be a test many may fail.

Now if God supernaturally protects Israel from attack from an enemy from the north then that would be a great sign. However, is that just something from the "Left Behind" books.

I know that God doesn't save us from all tribulation now, so why would he then?

However, why would a God of Love let his people suffer through a "Great Tribulation" when he has the power to protect us?

I realize thats just questions from the heart and then we each have to make up our own minds what scripture says.

Michael
Thomas

[FFC]

"Inventor of false pre-trib rapture history

Dave MacPherson is an individual who loves to hate pretribulationism. In fact, he has thought up new ways to express his distain for pretribulationism by fabricating a false history of the pre-trib rapture. For the last thirty-plus years, MacPherson has dedicated his life to full time rapture hating in an attempt to participate in anything that he believes will obstruct its spread."

http://www.raptureready.com/who/Dave_MacPherson.html


Yeah I see the history of all this is hotly debated. So from now on when someone tells me pre-tribulation was invented by so and so at such and such a date, I just going to say thats under debate.

I kind of like this site
http://www.raptureready.com/who/Dave_MacPherson.html

It lays out both side pretty much without taking a position either way.

You know what my Pastor said was that there was good arguments on either side. So it like hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
Like hope for a pre-trib rapture and prepare to go through the tribulation.

I know for many to go through tribulation without a sign from God will be a test many may fail.

Now if God supernaturally protects Israel from attack from an enemy from the north then that would be a great sign. However, is that just something from the "Left Behind" books.

I know that God doesn't save us from all tribulation now, so why would he then?

However, why would a God of Love let his people suffer through a "Great Tribulation" when he has the power to protect us?

I realize thats just questions from the heart and then we each have to make up our own minds what scripture says.

Michael
Thomas

Mike,
My understanding is that the great tribulation is going to be like no other tribulation. You just look at all the bowl, trumpet, and seal judgements to see that. even if you spiritualize them it still looks pretty horrrific.

This is going to be the mother of all judgements on the earth when God withdrawals His grace and pours out his judgements with a fury. This is a prophecy of doom like no other in history. The terrible invasion and destruction that happened in 70 ad looks like a picnic compared to what is revealed in the tribulation in Revelation.

Unless God is a sadist and enjoys the suffering of His faithful children, I can't see how He would ever allow us to go through a judgement that is meant for unbelievers.

[bluesman]

The question then would be How is God going to protect his people?

Raptured away, Sealed against it, or hidden in the Wilderness?

Michael Thomas

[puritan lad]

While it would be more profitable to look at the outline as a whole, I would ask you...

"Why do you think that there will be a future "great tribulation"?

And there is really no honest debate about the history of the "rapture" doctrine. I would challenge anyone to find such a doctrine in any Christian writing before the early 1800's.

That said, the real question isn't whether or not this doctrine is historical, but whether or not it is biblical. The fact of the matter is that none of the main events in this end-times theology can be found in scripture, at least without some very creative interpretations which do serious damage to the context of the verses.

No pre-trib rapture in Scripture
No Russian Invasion of Israel
No Third Jewish Temple
No future tribulation period
No future world dictator

Etc...

Bluesman,

Is the outline I gave above an accurate view of your endtimes theology? If not, please revise.

Thanks,

PL

[Canuckster1127]

Here's a link to an article that outlines some of what I think Puritan Lad is saying here.

http://lig1.tripod.com/lee/early/leeearly.htm

It addresses early patristic fathers and what was evident in their positions and writings.

Does anyone have a link to those in the dispensational camp and what evidence they might have in terms of the presence of the pre-trib position prior to the 19th century?

[puritan lad]

Bart,

Thomas Ice has attempted to drum up a few here and there. See Jac3510's summary Ice's arguments at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... c&start=34 and my response in post #39 on that thread).

[bluesman]

Manuel Lacunza Y Dí­az (July 19, 1731 - June 17 1801) also wrote about prophecy from a futurist viewpoint in The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty.3 Completed in 1790, it was placed on the Vatican's Index of Forbidden Books in 1824. While the "pre-tribulation rapture" idea is not found here, Lacunza taught that Jesus returns not once, but twice, and at the "first stage" of His return He "raptures" His Church so they can escape the reign of the "future antichrist."

From
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts//////// ... alism.html

How in the above do they claim the pre-trib rapture is not taught??????????????????????????????????????????!!!!

Michael Thomas

[bluesman]

During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture in the early church.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pretribulation Rapture

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present-day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until I wrote FINAL WARNING in 1995. Some scholars suggested that this manuscript was written several centuries later (5th or 6th century) but definitely before the birth of Islam in 622. However William Bousset, one of the greatest scholars on ancient eschatology, concluded in his book The Antichrist Legend that it was written by Ephraem the Syrian before A.D. 373.1 Andrew R. Anderson wrote in his book Alexander's Gate that he accepted the early date as being valid.2

This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a very clear statement about the pretribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. For additional details read the article Examining an ancient Pre-tribulation Rapture statement on this web site.


from
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/why_some_reject.htm

Michael Thomas

[bluesman]

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/exa ... ncient.htm

Now it clear to my that the above statement teaches pre-trib rapture.
Now you may argue the origins of that statement, but thats all.


Michael
Thomas

[bluesman]

I should add that in the above post that you maybe could argue for bad translation as we the original wasn't written in English .

Michael
Thomas