War of Gog and Magog

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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Jac3510
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Post by Jac3510 »

I'm theocratic as well (it is inescapable).
Amillennialists wouldn't agree, but then again, I'm not dealing with an a-mill. ;) I would definitely argue that the proper eschatology is between pre and post-mill. I've simply taken the former of these. We can discuss this however and as long as you like *shrug*
1.) I would combine the Church Age and the Messianic age into one age. I can find no Biblical evidence to support the idea that Jesus Christ will reign on earth for some future 1,000 year period. I can, however, find tons of scriptural support for the idea that He is reigning now (Matthew 28:18, John 18:36, Romans 14:17, Revelation 1:5), and that we are currently reigning with Him (Col. 1:13, Rev. 1:6). Over and over again, the message to the Jewish People in the New Testament was "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17). As a result of their disobedience, "the kingdom of God was taken away from then and given to a people producing its fruits" (Matthew 21:43). We see that Jesus reigns prior to the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:25) and “will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:33) (This was His first Advent, not His Second.)

Once you introduce a 1,000 year reign into the picture, it throws all kinds of issues into the timeline. For example, you would have (at least) two separate resurrections some 1,007 years apart. How would this coincide with Daniel 12:2 or John 5:28-29, which have the resurrection of the righteous and wicked at the same time? There will be more to this in my next post.
I'll not patronize you with a series of exegeses on these passages. I think you probably know how premill's take these. If you have a specific question on a specific passage, feel free to ask. But I don't want to get into proof-texting and then offering countless rebuttals.

Anyway, I would not have expected the combination of the Church and Messianic age from you. my understanding of postmill is that the Church will establish the Kingdom, at which time Christ will return and receive it. Is that not true? If so, I would think the physical reign of Christ for all of eternity is what we are ultimately looking forward to. What would you term that "age" . . . "the eternal age"? If you notice my breakdown, I combined the eternal state with the kingdom state. Let me go at this one more way.

If I am correct, you believe there will be an actual kingdom of Christ. It began to grow in the first century and will continue to do so until it fills the whole world. At that point, Christ will take His kingdom. Now, in a sense, then, Christ is currently reigning, because to the extent His kingdom has covered the earth, He reigns. However, there is another sense in which He is not yet reigning, and that is the literal reigning that He will do on a physical earth for all of eternity. So you would actually make a break between the development and the establishment of the Kingdom, the latter being defined by the physical rule of Christ, right?

So, what I would have expected would have been a combination of the Jewish age with the Church age, precisely because you believe that the Church is Israel, always has been, and always will be. Thus, the Church was established with the Abrahamic Covenant and will ultimately be fulfilled with Christ's return. So where have I misunderstood postmillennialism proper?
2.) You wrote, “At the rapture, then, the Church is removed (2 Thess. 2:7).” 2 Thessalonians 2:7 says nothing about the church being removed, nor does it mention a rapture of any kind. Again, this is a brief overview of my objections, which we can get into details later.
I would be interested in your take on this verse. It reads, "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way." (NIV) Since you don't believe in a final antichrist, I suppose you would take this as referring to the destruction of the Temple - the abomination of descolatio - which occured in AD 70? I'm not sure how you get "man of sin" to represent Rome, but more importantly, who is "but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way"? If the man of lawlessness is Rome, then the restrainer cannot be Rome itself. It can't be Israel (unbelieving, of course). It can't be the Holy Spirit, in your view, because unbelieving Israel never had the Spirit as they were never elect.

Of course, in the pre-trib view, we take this as the Church is taken out of the way, and then the antichrist is revealed. I suspect we can discuss that in more detail as we progress?
3.) You write, “The entire seven year tribulation period is designed to bring Israel to repentance. At the end of this time, they will look on Jesus "the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son" (Zech. 12:10), and "all Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:26).” First objection, there is no mention of a 7-year tribulation period in the Bible. Therefore, to assign a purpose for this period is presumptuous. Secondly, Zech. 12 was fulfilled during the time of Esther.
As to your first objection, there are two stock responses.

1) There is mention of a final seven year period: Daniel's 70th week. Granted, you find that to have all been fulfilled, but your interpretation doesn't mean that there is no support for the opposing position. As we interpret Dan. 9:24-27, there is a final week mentioned. Further, Jeremiah 30 talks about the restoration of Israel. They were, at that time, captives in Babylon, and God promised their deliverance. He said that He will bring them back to their land, but in the day that happens, there will be a time of great trouble and "none will be like it" (30:7). However, God will save them out of that time of tribulation. Add to this the fact that Jeremiah 29:10 promises only seventy years of captivity, which is when Daniel began to pray about Israel's deliverance (Dan. 9:1-3), then it seems pretty clear that this "time of Jacob's trouble" is closely related to Daniel's vision. Again, though, this is standard dispensational stuff.

2) We cannot expect the 2000+ year gap between this final week and the first sixty nine to be explicitly stated in Scripture. Paul flatly declares that it is was a mystery - by definition, a thing unknown in the past - that the Jews would reject their Messiah and be kept in blindness for a time "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25, KJV). Now, the prophets did see both a triumphant and a suffering Christ. It is so clear that, as you know, the Jews had come to expect two messiahs. It was simply not revealed that this would be the same Messiah coming a two different times. There is a lot that hints at that, and there is a lot that makes sense in light of that revelation, but it was never explicitly revealed, which is why it was a mystery. That being the case, it would be absurd to expect to find in OT prophecy a promise of rejection, followed by a promise of a Church, followed by the seven years of tribulation. So far as Jewish eschatology was concerned, the Messiah would come at a time of trouble and restore the land. They are right. But, they missed the fact that that coming will be the Second Coming.

As an aside, I've not seen it argued that Zech 12 was fulfilled in Esther's time. Would you care to ellaborate? I've read a some post-mill work, but, of course, not everything.
4.) You added, “Christ will then return and establish His eternal kingdom, at which time the Abrahamic Covenant, and all its daughter covenants, will finally be fulfilled." What about Galatians Chapter 3. Is Paul, a Hebrew, mistaken when He clearly writes that the Abrahamic Covenant is fulfilled in the church and only the church? What about the kingdom that Christ has now? (See above). Will it be defeated? Why did Jesus tell us concerning the “fig tree” that “May no fruit ever come from you again!" (Matthew 21:19). Was He wrong? What will you do with 2 Peter 3:10-13. It seems to me that the plain reading of the Scripture suggests that once Christ returns, there won't be any place on earth for Him to sit and rule over.
1) Gal. 3: I don't see how this "clearly [states] that the Abrhamic Covenant isf ulfilled in the church and only in the church." You could interpret Paul's words to mean as such, but it doesn't "clearly" state that . . .

Specifically, Paul says that those who believe are children of Abraham. I don't suspect that has any bearing on your position, because Paul makes it a big point about the Covenant not being fulfilled in the children, but in Christ. Now, Christ is the head of the Church, but the promise to Abraham as to a kingdom and a people. The borders of that Kingdom are very clearly established in Gen. 15:18-21. Christ does not currently reign there, and neither does the Church. So, I don't see how this passages helps your position. Now, from my perspective, Christ will return and establish His Kingdom, at which time, He will set the borders as He sees fit. He will then rule and the promise will be fulfilled in Christ, just as both OT and NT prophecy tells us. Regardless, I think the word "clearly" is too strong for your position.

2) As for the kingdom Christ has now: Neither Col. nor Rev. says that we are currently reigning with Christ. Feel free to offer an exegesis of those passages. As for the other four verses you provided, Matt. says that all authority has been given to Jesus. Fair enough, nobody is arguing against that. John says that the Kingdom is not of this world, and who argues that it is? In Johannine thought, "world" refers to the fallen world in rebellion to God. I realize you don't believe that, as you take "world" to be "the elect" in John 3:16. But, again, we are dealing with interpretation. Jesus is saying there that the Kingdom is one or righteousness and will not be the same as human kingdoms, gained by politics, war, and insurrection. Romans has a similar idea . . . the issue is condemning one another in legalism. But the Kingdom isn't about that. It is about righteousness and Spirit. And finally, Rev refers to Christ's sovereignty over the world. Again, no one disputes that.

But, let me ask you about that last one. Job's story happens before, or around, the time of Abraham. He certainly would not have been a Jew proper. However, Satan had to ask permission to attack him. This demonstrates Christ's sovereignty over "the god of this world" even before Abraham. However, if the Abrahamic Covenant is being fulfilled through the Church, and Israel was also the Church, then when did Christ start reigning? When did He become Sovereign? With Abraham? At Pentecost? I suppose He has always been sovereign, but what does that do to the concept of Christ's Kingdom now? And how does that differentiate between the Kingdom Christ will receive at His return?

So, in answer to all of this, Christ's Kingdom will not be defeated. The Church will exist until she is taken away. However, I simply do not see the Church as fulfilling or representative of the Theocratic Kingdom.

3) As for the Fig Tree, I know you take that as a reference to the people of Israel, but I really do not see an exegetical reason to do so. We can work by way of analogy, but Jesus Himself tells us the point of the living parable. Anything we ask in faith, we receive. Jesus was expecting fruit, it didn't give any, so He cursed the tree. Unless Jesus or the Apostles clearly state that this is a reference to Israel, I don't think it should be taken that way. Besides this, even among those who do take this as an allusion to the Jews, there is still the true vine vs. unfruitful Israel contrast (Is. 5:1-5; John 15:1). Some argue that the curse was on "unfruitful Israel" . . . those who reject Christ. Like I said, I think that is taking it too far, but, then again, I really don't see a proper connection with those particular people, per se.

4) I am glad you pointed out 2 Pet 3:10-13. This is a good example of sloppy dispensational interpretation. I am surprised that you asked about it, though, as Pentecost explains this concept in some detail. It is important to distinguish between "the day of the Lord" and "the day of Christ." The former of these does not refer to a specific instance, but rather to the entire eschaton. The latter referrs more specifically to "the expectation of the Church, her translation, glorification, and examination for reward." (Things to Come, 232). Of course, "day" doesn't generally mean one twenty-four hour period in eschatology.

So, this passage is referring especially to the GWT Judgment and the establishment of the New Heaven and New Earth, which is all a part of the Day of the Lord.
5.) Finally, postmillennialists do not believe that the church supercedes Israel. We believe that the church IS Israel (and always has been, even in the OT). Before I get into each part in detail, I have one more post that explains why postmillennialism is superior to other eschatologies.
This I understand, and it is why I find it more acceptable that amillennialism. I took an eschatology course this past semester and was assigned to argue in favor of post-mill. The chief argument agaist us, of course, was the lack of literal hermeneutic and the replacement of Israel. It was wonderful to be able to say, "Oh, you don't understand. The Church doesn't replace Israel. We are Israel! Therefore, those promises ARE to you!" In any case, I think, though, that this position makes too light of Matt. 21:43, "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." (NIV) You really can't have this both ways, which is what I see post-mill doing. On the one hand, you want to say that Israel (the elect portion) was the Church. However, Christ tells the Pharisees that the Kingdom would be taken away from them and given to another, which you take to be the Church. However, since they did not believe, then it must be concluded that they were not a part of "elect Israel." In that case, they never had the Kingdom to begin with, and therefore, it could not be taken from them.

Premill. doesn't have that problem. The Kingdom was offered to them, and they rejected it. Thus, it was taken away and will be offered to another people, the Israel of the Tribulation. They will accept it.

As for your second post, I don't think it would be all that productive for me to answer each one of those point by point. I could, but it would be very time consuming, and I suspect each of those points will come up in some form or fashion in specific discussion. Besides, I'm not looking to disprove postmill. You were asking about my eschatology, so I'm offering answers. I don't have too much concern for arguing againts yours, although there are aspects of it I would like to better understand. Anyway, if any of those ideas have a direct bearing on the subject, we can certainly deal with them. If not, then I will assume that, while interesting, they aren't specifically related to the discussion and would be more of a distraction that a beneficial area to explore. Fair enough?

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by puritan lad »

Jac,

I'll split each section of your post up and deal with it individually, for the sake of clarity and readability. (I haven't even addressed my main objections, like the clear time frame references and the necessary audience relevance. We'll get to those later.)
I'll not patronize you with a series of exegeses on these passages. I think you probably know how premill's take these. If you have a specific question on a specific passage, feel free to ask. But I don't want to get into proof-texting and then offering countless rebuttals.

The specific passages that I have questions on are numerous, but let's start with the ones that I list below and how they relate to the resurrection, which is the issue that led me to postmillennialism. (I haven't seen any premillennialist address this problem sufficiently yet. Most eventually accept four different resurrections, and write off my objection as an argument from silence :)).

I assume, like all other premillennialists that I've studied and talked to, that you believe that the First Resurrection in Revelation 20:5 is a literal resurrection of the righteous dead (via your revised timeline #1). You then have the wicked dead resurrected 1,007 years later (Revised Timeline #11). This is riddled with inconsistencies.

First, Both Jesus and Daniel have the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked taking place at the same time (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29). The 1,007 year gap was unknown to both. (Note: I have a different interpretation of Daniel 12:2 anyways, but I want you to address it from your POV).

Second, Both Jesus and Daniel tell us that the resurrection of the righteous takes place on “the last day” (Daniel 12:13; John 6:39; John 6:40; John 6:44; John 11:24). Premillennialists have at least 1,000 years of history yet to take place after the last day.

Third, Pre-tribbers hold that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the Pre-trib rapture, yet it clearly takes place after the resurrection of the righteous dead (1 Thessalonians 4:16). At the same time, the “First Resurrection” includes “the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4). Any way you slice it, the “tribulation saints” are resurrected before the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4), the saints for the “church age” are resurrected before the “rapture” (1 Thess 4:16-17), and the wicked are resurrected after the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:5). Do you now believe in three resurrections? In that case, the “first resurrection” isn't really the first one, but the second. Also, it is clear that those who have no part in the first resurrection are subject to the second death (Rev. 20:6). What will you do with the millennium saints? Are we now to add a fourth resurrection? This is one of many problems with the Premillennial view. Even without the self-created “gaps” in the OT prophecies, or addressing any other event in your timeline, it has already become a mess. (I noticed that you also have two Gog and Magog invasions in your timeline as well. You beat me to it).

The resurrection issue is just the beginning of the problems with Premillennialism. However, it would be a major obstacle to overcome if you can do so.

God Bless,

PL
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Post by puritan lad »

So where have I misunderstood postmillennialism proper?
Like Premillennialism, there are probably differences of opinion even within postmillennialism. In my understanding, Postmillennialism and Amillennialism aren't that much different from one another. The biggest difference surrounds a future fulfillment of Romans 11:23-26. Postmillennialists believe that there will be a time when Judaists (not necessarily the current fleshly nation of Israel) will reject their false religion and come to Christ. This time will result in even greater blessings for the Gentiles, a “golden age” as it has been called by some. Just how golden is a matter of debate. Some hold that part of the curse will be removed from creation, and the beatitudes will be fulfilled. (This is why I reject any “imminent” return doctrine, though many postmillennialists do not). The Church is the kingdom of God, and was established by Christ during the Roman Empire (Daniel 2:44-45). It will grow like leaven (Matthew 13:33), until it has filled the whole earth with the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea (Habakkuk 2:14). It is then that the Second Advent will take place. We believe in the Second Coming, but not a third. Like Amillennialists, we do not believe in a literal 1,000 year reign, nor do we believe that Christ will ever forsake His heavenly throne in order to sit on an earthly one. There will be one resurrection and one final judgment.

That is the biggest difference between modern Premillennialism and Puritan eschatology. Postmillennialists beleive that the Great Commission will be a success in this age. Afterall, we have Him with us who has all authority in heaven and on earth. How can it fail?
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Post by puritan lad »

I would be interested in your take on this verse (2 Thess. 2:7). It reads, "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way." (NIV) Since you don't believe in a final antichrist, I suppose you would take this as referring to the destruction of the Temple - the abomination of descolatio - which occured in AD 70? I'm not sure how you get "man of sin" to represent Rome, but more importantly, who is "but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way"? If the man of lawlessness is Rome, then the restrainer cannot be Rome itself. It can't be Israel (unbelieving, of course). It can't be the Holy Spirit, in your view, because unbelieving Israel never had the Spirit as they were never elect.

Of course, in the pre-trib view, we take this as the Church is taken out of the way, and then the antichrist is revealed. I suspect we can discuss that in more detail as we progress?
You have pointed out another problem I have with most Premillennial exegesis. Aside from blatantly false translations (ie. genea = “race”), they import items into passages that simply are not there. For example, to hear a premillennialist preach on Daniel or Revelation, you would think that these books were replete with references to "antichrist". The fact is that “antichrist” isn't mentioned in either book, nor is it mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. (Although I do hold that the “man of lawlessness” does fit a perfect description of the Biblical antichrist.)

What is 2 Thessalonians 2 speaking of? There are several different candidates proposed by preterists. Some have suggested the various messianic contenders during the war with Rome (John of Gischala, Simon ben Giora, or Eleazar ben Ananias, Eleazar ben Yair -- the leader at Masada, or the High Priest). I hold to the high priest. (Some have suggested Herod Agrippa, but I'd need some convincing on that one.)

First, we have to note that “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work” in the First Century (2 Thess. 2:7). This alone eliminates the idea of a future “antichrist” from this passage, unless he is about 2,000 years old. Second, “he takes his seat in the temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4). This necessarily puts his existence before 70 AD (There is no third Jewish temple mentioned in the Bible). This is also evidence of the High Priest, who was a great persecutor of Paul. It was the religion of Judaism, according to Josephus, that worked many signs and wonders, and falsely prophesied victory over the Roman army during the Jewish rebellion (2 Thess. 2:3). Some of them even claimed to be the true Messiah (2 Thess. 2:4). In the end, the high priest and Judaizers were “killed with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.” (2 Thess. 2:8, see Matthew 21:40-45).

If one holds this person to be the Biblical Antichrist, this argument has even more merit. John defines “antichrist” as “he who denies that Jesus is the Christ” (1 John 2:22). He then clarifies that “No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.” (1 John 2:23). This statement suggests that “antichrist” is connected with Judaism, those who claim to have the Father while rejecting the Son. It would certainly apply to the high priest, to whom Jesus said “you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64). Whether Caiaphas was still the high priest in 70 AD I do not know. If you feel up to it, research for yourself and let me know. We also know that “antichrist” was an issue contemporary with the First Century Church (1 John 2:18; 1 John 4:3), not something to be expected 2,000 years later.

I hold that it was the existence of the Jerusalem church that “held back” this judgment. It was only after they fled to Mt. Pella (not raptured) that the mystery of lawlessness was revealed (See Luke 21:20-22).

This is my own interpretation, and it is at least as good as any out there…

God Bless,

PL
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Post by Jac3510 »

As a complete aside, I really hope that we can maintain this demeanor. I would consider this to be both a very productive and informative discussion. Props and kudos to you on that. As for your posts:
I assume, like all other premillennialists that I've studied and talked to, that you believe that the First Resurrection in Revelation 20:5 is a literal resurrection of the righteous dead (via your revised timeline #1). You then have the wicked dead resurrected 1,007 years later (Revised Timeline #11). This is riddled with inconsistencies.
Eh . . . I can agree with this for the sake of discussion. You'll see in a minute why I think you are being to narrow here, so far as my understanding goes. You pointed out what you see to be three inconsistencies.

1) I am going to have a different view than most pre-tribbers on the resurrection of the righteous and wicked. The problem here is that we are going to get into the different judgments . . . I find several in Scripture. Off the top of my head, there was the judgment of God on Sin at Christ's death/resurrection, there is the Bema Seat, at which time all Christians will give their account before God, there is the Judgment of the Sheep and Goats on the Gentiles nations following the Tribulation (JSG), there is the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the age (GWT). There are also judgments related to the covenant nation of Israel. So, the question is who, at which resurrection, goes into what judgment?!? We would have to do each on a case by case basis, but as far as your two verses go,

Dan. 12:2 is in special reference to the Jews. I know that most premills take this to be a reference to the GWT, and it may very well be. And, I may be wrong, and they may be right in that this is a general resurrection. It is interesting to note that at the JSG, the nations are judged for how they treated Israel. Israel herself is not a part of this judgment. How and where is she judged? It seems that Daniel could be dealing with that issue here. There is precedent, because at the JSG, some go on into "eternal life," while others are condemned. This would perfectly fit the context.

John 5:28-29 makes for an interesting study. Jesus was not trying to lay out a plan of the end times. He is using this as proof that His word is the line between life and death. So, this is actually an illustration or argument to prove that statement. My immediate understanding is that this does refer to the GWT. I am fully aware and someone confused that it is almost universally held among pre-tribbers that the only people at the GWT judgment will be unbelievers. What about Millennial saints? When and where are they judged? And why does John say that everyone not found in the Book of Life is condemned? Why not just say, "And everyone was condemned, for they had not believed in the name of Jesus," or something of that nature? There doesn't seem to be any reason to suggest that only the wicked are resurrected at this time. Anyway, as there are several judgments, I don't see why this can't be a reference the GWT. Jesus could have picked any one of them, but He wasn't interested in giving an end times outline. He was simply stating a truth, which was that there would come a day when the dead would rise at His command. If that is true, then His initial claim, that all who believe in Him have everlasting life, is substantiated.

2) I do agree that the resurrection takes place on "the last day." From a technical perspective, the four passages in John all translated "in the last day" from the phrase te eschate hemera. The last two mentioned include the preposition en, so there is no reason to believe that all four are not meant with this idea (en requires its object to be in the dative). Now that little word basically means "in," but it's lexical range is broader, being "in," "on," "among," etc. It's the same word used to say that we, as believers, are in Christ. In other words, it is a word of location, contrary to the word eis, which is more directional ("into").

I bring that up because the resurrection happens IN the "last day." Now, what is "the last day"? As you know from your reading of Pentecost, that is an eschatological term that does not simply refer to one event. It would be fairly equivelant to the eschaton. In other words, the "last day," does not refer to the twenty four hour period preceding the end of everything. It refers to the final plan of God being poured out on the earth in its entirety. It is fairly synonomous with "the Day of the Lord," as I understand it. There may even be a 100% overlap, but I am not sure enough to say that absolutely. The point: the Resurrection takes place in and durig this final plan of God of this earth. Thus, a 1,000 year "gap" is no problem at all, for that all time will be "the last day." Aside from all of this, it isn't so much of an issue because, as I note before, some of the statements of Jesus and Daniel may refer to the GWT or the Jewish resurrection, etc. There are many possibilities here.

3) This third objection is the most complicated, so let me just take it bit by bit. There is no problem with 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The "dead in Christ" do rise first. This entire section describes the rapture. I would take the "we" in "And so we will be with the Lord forever" to refer to all those in Christ, both the dead and living. In other words, this is a fairly simultaneous event, although, chronologically, the dead go first, followed immediately by those still living. I so ne reason to suggest a gap of time here ;)

Now, you are absolutely right that the first Resurrection includes those who have been beheaded during the Tribulation, and it is absolutely true that the saints of the Church age were raptured before them. The key here is to realize that the First Resurrection is not so much a single event as it is a parade. Christ was the first person resurrected. I believe that when He ascended to Heaven, He came in, not alone, but followed by all the OT saints. They have had their part in the First Resurrection. The Rapture will be the resurrection of the Church, both the dead and the living. Finally, the Tribulation saints, who missed the Rapture, will be resurrected at the Second Coming. All of this is the First Resurrection, of which Christ is the Firstborn. All those who die during the Millennium, as well as those who were neither OT nor NT saints, will be resurrected at the GWT judgment, some to everlasting life, some (most) to condemnation.

So, I hope that takes care of that issue. I'm sure you will questions, but that's a good overview of the argument, I think. I don't any problems with your second post. I've obviously heard the "Great commission won't fail" argument, and I agree. I just differ as to what that means. You would say that all nations must be discipled, and I would argue that the language allows for all nations having heard the Gospel. It's as much a practical issue as anything else. Would you say that the Gospel has made a disciple of America? Certainly, there are disciples here. At what point does a country become a disciple? All the citizens? Or only most? If some are allowed to be unbelievers, then where is the line drawn? So, the GC will be completed. People will be discipled in every nation.

As for your last post, thank you for that explanation. Like I said, I don't really want to try to disprove post-mill here. I think that would become a distraction. I do want to agree that genea has been false argued to mean "Jewish People," and some - such as the Van Impe and Lindsey crowd want to move "generation" back to the one alive at the time of Christ. Neither of those work well. I've already given my opinion on what the proper understanding of "this generation" refers to.

Anyway, I'm sure there are some things here you will want to respond to, as well as some other questions you'll want to ask.

BTW, you didn't answer my question about your understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant. I've heard several different views on it from your camp. Do you consider it conditional or unconditional, temporal or eternal, and fulfilled or unfulfilled? Thanks much,

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by puritan lad »

As a complete aside, I really hope that we can maintain this demeanor. I would consider this to be both a very productive and informative discussion. Props and kudos to you on that. As for your posts:
Ditto. I realize that I can get blunt and to the point at times, but I'm not really a mean person. :) However, I do continue to poke fun at the Hal Lindsey's and Jack Van Impe's of the world. Like the false prophets in Elijah's day, they deserve it. (They certainly have made your camp look bad.)
Eh . . . I can agree with this for the sake of discussion. You'll see in a minute why I think you are being to narrow here, so far as my understanding goes.
I would agree. It is the standard Premillennial dispensational view that is “too narrow” on these resurrections, and you can see the problems that it causes. I hold that the “First Resurrection” equals salvation. Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection, so “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6) How do we do that? By “Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who also raised Him from the dead. (Col. 2:12). As a result we "walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:4). When we were dead in our transgressions, God "made us alive together with Christ . . . and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 3:1).

Over such the second death (Hell) has no power. Therefore, we are “priests” (1 Peter 2:9) of God and of Christ, and we reign with him for a thousand years, a situation which John already claims as a present reality (Rev. 1:6). I also hold that Daniel 12:2 concerns the same resurrection. It speaks of “many”, whereas the final resurrection would be for all. I also hold that the “king of the time of the end” is Herod the Great, for a variety of reasons.

Now if I can get you to be a little less narrow on “coming in the clouds”, “Israel”, and that “1,000 year reign”, I might turn you into a postmillennialist. :D
BTW, you didn't answer my question about your understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant. I've heard several different views on it from your camp. Do you consider it conditional or unconditional, temporal or eternal, and fulfilled or unfulfilled? Thanks much,
Working on it, as well as the Zechariah 12-Esther connection and Jeremiah 30. (Gary DeMar has some excellent material on the first two issues.)

God Bless,

PL
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Post by Jac3510 »

However, I do continue to poke fun at the Hal Lindsey's and Jack Van Impe's of the world. Like the false prophets in Elijah's day, they deserve it. (They certainly have made your camp look bad.)
The more they get poked fun of, the better. Unfortunately, as this very discussion demonstrates, people like me have to spend a ton of time disassociating ourselves from the sensationalist aspects of our camp. I would just hope that, when you critique dispensationalism, you recognize that their position, which unfortunately has held the majority opinion, is not truly the best one that those on our side hold. Let me give you another example of dispensationalism-gone-bad. The seven "ages" of the Church represented by the seven churches in the Revelation . . . I mean, COME ON. :oops:

At the end of the day, dispensationalists have to let the literal hermeneutic reign supreme and accept whatever consequences come from that. That's why the Gog/Russia, seven ages, seven dispensations, 1988 rapture, etc. are all absolutely preposterous. I really hope to see a more reasoned and scripturally grounded position emerge in the next few years. Preterism has had the benefit of what . . . two hundred years or so more of refinement? And even you have had your splits (full, partial, etc.). Give us some time to get rid of the wack jobs and wacky ideas in our camp.
I would agree. It is the standard Premillennial dispensational view that is “too narrow” on these resurrections, and you can see the problems that it causes. I hold that the “First Resurrection” equals salvation. Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection, so “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6) How do we do that? By “Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who also raised Him from the dead. (Col. 2:12). As a result we "walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:4). When we were dead in our transgressions, God "made us alive together with Christ . . . and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 3:1).
I would agree with this, which is why I picture the first resurrection as a parade. As a disclaimer, I don't agree with some of the results as a necessary condition, but that would take us into deeper waters that are not directly related to this conversation. Where I would slightly differ from you is, theocratically, I see the first resurrection as related to those of previous ages who enter the Kingdom, whereas the second resurrection as related to those who did not enter it for whatever reason (i.e., unbelief, born already in it, etc.). All that, of course, is made possible via the Resurrection of Christ.

Would you, then, agree that in my view of things, the problems with the Resurrection as you posed it is no problem for my premillennialism?
Now if I can get you to be a little less narrow on “coming in the clouds”, “Israel”, and that “1,000 year reign”, I might turn you into a postmillennialist.
Haha, don't set your sights so high. I'd hate for you to be disappointed. Where I like preterism is its recognition of early fulfillment of prophetic passages, an issue largely ignored by the premill group. I can't say there is anything in post-mill that is superior to pre-mill, but it is by far superior to amill. What post-mill's do well, though (ironically), is take several important passages more literally than the standard premill position. I sincerely hope that is noted by our camp, and the proper adjustments, along the lines that I am proposing, are made.

Oh, and btw, not to overload you with questions, but I noticed a question I really wanted your take on, only because I didn't know how to answer this objection in class:
I think, though, that [post-millennialism] makes too light of Matt. 21:43, "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." (NIV) You really can't have this both ways, which is what I see post-mill doing. On the one hand, you want to say that Israel (the elect portion) was the Church. However, Christ tells the Pharisees that the Kingdom would be taken away from them and given to another, which you take to be the Church. However, since they did not believe, then it must be concluded that they were not a part of "elect Israel." In that case, they never had the Kingdom to begin with, and therefore, it could not be taken from them.
Again, I don't want to bombard you with too many side issues. But this, the Abrahamic Covenant, and the Zech. issue are all very intriguing.

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by puritan lad »

I think, though, that [post-millennialism] makes too light of Matt. 21:43, "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." (NIV) You really can't have this both ways, which is what I see post-mill doing. On the one hand, you want to say that Israel (the elect portion) was the Church. However, Christ tells the Pharisees that the Kingdom would be taken away from them and given to another, which you take to be the Church. However, since they did not believe, then it must be concluded that they were not a part of "elect Israel." In that case, they never had the Kingdom to begin with, and therefore, it could not be taken from them.
The “kingdom” in the temporal sense is the church universal. Up until that time, OT Judaism was the “kingdom”. In order to be in Covenant with God, one had to become a Jew (Exodus 12:48-49). In the New Covenant, this is no longer the case as "circumcision is nothing". (1 Corinthians 7:19).

However, not all who are in the kingdom are members of the elect, as shown by the parable of the wheat and the tares. (Matthew 13:24-30). The devil has sown tares into the kingdom to grow along beside the wheat. Obviously, He didn't sow anything in the literal Heaven of God. In the end, God will separate them and put them in their proper place. Just as being an Israelite in OT times didn't guarantee salvation, joining a church today guarantees nothing in any eternal sense. (Side Note: I believe that the separation of the Wheat and the Tares coincides with the Gog and Magog invasion after the millennium, as well as a picture of 70 AD, the physical end of the Old Covenant. My “dual fulfillment” belief.)

This is why Jesus, being amazed at the faith of the Centurion, prophesied that the Gentiles would come into the [eternal] kingdom (Matthew 8:11), and then immediately adds, “But the sons of the [temporal] kingdom (Christ-rejecting Judaism) will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8:12). He certainly didn't mean that those who worship Christ during some earthly millennium would be cast into Hell. His statement concerning Judaism was clarified in verse 10, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!”

I need to clarify that the temporal kingdom and the eternal kingdom are one and the same "kingdom", but that some cleaning of this kingdom will take place prior to eternity, just like it did in AD 70.

In removing the kingdom from the Pharisees in Matthew 21:43, Christ was simply excommunicating them from His Church, and when Christ excommunicates someone, they have really been excommunicated. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves…Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:13, 33). The death and destruction in 70 AD was only a mild beginning of the judgment that they would face.

Disclaimer: The above Scriptures in Matthew 23 were taken from one of those nice loving sermons that Jesus was known for preaching. :D

Hope this explains the kingdom better in terms of Covenant Theology.

God Bless,

PL
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Post by puritan lad »

Finally found the info I was looking for.

For a good commentary on Zechariah 12 and the Esther Connection, you can read Gary DeMar's article from his monthly magazine here.

Zechariah 12 and the Esther Connection

He also points out the inconsistency of the Dispensational interpretation of an “everlasting” Covenant here (There are two parts to this article).

The Abrahamic Covenant: Fulfilled or Postponed?

I hold that the Abrahamic Covenant has been fully fulfilled, both in physical Israel in the OT, and Spiritual Israel (the church) in the NT. After Moses led Israel out of Egypt, Joshua completed the immediate fulfillment of this covenant. The Israelites, under Joshua, took possession of all the land that was promised to them, thus fulfilling the Covenant promises to Abraham

"Be strong and of good courage, for to this people you shall divide as an inheritance the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.”
(Joshua 1:6).

Was God's promise to Joshua false? It was Joshua who was to lead the people to their promised inheritance. This he did.

"So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the LORD had said to Moses; and Joshua gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. Then the land rested from war.”
(Joshua 11:23).

God himself testifies to the physical fulfillment of this Covenant.

“So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass."
(Joshua 21:43-45)

In the New Covenant, Jesus Christ (the NT Joshua) leads the Spiritual Israel (His Church) out of their “slavery” to their promised land. This time, they won't be hemmed in by the boundaries given in Gen. 15:18-21, but will “inherit the earth” (Matthew 5:5). This was obvious even in the OT. God never intended to save only Israel, but decreed that “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” (Habakkuk 2:14). “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the LORD's, And He rules over the nations.” (Psalm 22:27-28). When Jeremiah wrote that, “all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem” (Jeremiah 3:17), he did not mean that all the nations would make a literal pilgrimage to the land outline in Genesis 15, but rather that they would “come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem” (Hebrews 12:22), which is currently “the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:26). Let us not forget that the main promise of the Abrahamic Covenant was that “In you all the (families and) nations shall be blessed”, not just one nation in the Middle East. (Genesis 12:3; Genesis 18:18; Genesis 22:18; Genesis 26:4; Genesis 28:14)

The NT gives many clear illustrations of this fact, but nowhere clearer than in Galatians 3. Paul (who was a Hebrew, a Pharisee of Pharisees) states very clearly that “only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7). He makes it clear also that “they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-7), and that “those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God”. (Romans 9:8). The identity of Abraham's seed was the main subject of the NT from its very first sermon (Matthew 3:7-9).

Paul goes on to tell us very clearly that Christians are heirs according to the promise made to Abraham (Galatians 3:7-9; Galatians 3:14). It also tells us that those who are “under the law” (Christ- rejecting Judaists) are “cursed” (Galatians 3:10-13), and that Abraham has only one seed, which is Christ (Galatians 3:16). There is no covenant with Christ, and there never was, as even the OT saints worshipped Christ with their Covenantal signs and practices (1 Corinthians 10:1-4).

In short, Galatians 3 tells us that, in Christ, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile with respect to the Abrahamic Covenant (Galatians 3:26-29). Outside of Christ, there is no Covenant, but a curse (Galatians 3:10-13). The Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled, literally in the OT by the OT Joshua, and Spiritually in the NT by the NT Joshua (Christ).

In answer to your question concerning the resurrection, there is no problem with your view biblically. In fact, it is almost a postmillenial view. If we can just get rid of that 1,000 earthly reign and convince you that there is no reason whatsoever to put 1 Thess 4:16-17 before the "tribulation", we would almost be in complete agreement. Your problem is that Dispensational Theology in and of itself was founded and made popular by cranks and crackpots. In order to disassociate yourself from them, you will have to pretty much scrap every historical Dispensational work, from Darby to Scofield to Ryrie to Walvoord, and start over again. (This is what I did, and thus eventually became postmillennial). :)

I have an objection to your view on the way the OT prophets looked at the church age, tribulation, etc., but I'll deal with this tomorrow, as I want to frame everything correctly.

God Bless,

PL.
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Post by Jac3510 »

puritan lad wrote:Finally found the info I was looking for.

For a good commentary on Zechariah 12 and the Esther Connection, you can read Gary DeMar's article from his monthly magazine here.

Zechariah 12 and the Esther Connection

He also points out the inconsistency of the Dispensational interpretation of an “everlasting” Covenant here (There are two parts to this article).

The Abrahamic Covenant: Fulfilled or Postponed?
Thanks for the info. I will give these a good read-through later. Hopefully they'll be worth putting in my files.
I hold that the Abrahamic Covenant has been fully fulfilled, both in physical Israel in the OT, and Spiritual Israel (the church) in the NT. After Moses led Israel out of Egypt, Joshua completed the immediate fulfillment of this covenant. The Israelites, under Joshua, took possession of all the land that was promised to them, thus fulfilling the Covenant promises to Abraham
OK, I'm going to first come out and say that I think you are mistaken in asserting the fulfillment of the AC. I'll get to each of the verses you provided in a moment, but let's just assume that you are correct. The AC, then, is finished. It was finished, by your interpretation, in the days of Joshua. God's obligations were completed. If this promise to the OT Church was fulfilled, then on what grounds do you resurrect it to apply it to the NT Church? By way of example, God promised that Jericho would fall if the people did certain things. They did, and that obligation was fulfilled. We certainly cannot say that promise is valid for us today. So, again, if the AC has been fully fulfilled, as you argue, then what is there left for the NT Church?

Now, I notice that you talk about a physical fulfillment here in Joshua and a later spiritual fulfillment by Jesus. That doesn't fly. If it does, then how is the promise to destory Jericho to be spirituall fulfilled? You also mentioned the main thrust of the AC being all the families of the earth being blessed, but again, this does not help your position at all. Notice your own texts: " Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass." (Josh. 21:45) Certainly this would have to include the blessings on Gentiles, for if ALL came to pass, then, by your logic, this had to come to pass, too.

This is one of the chief reasons I reject post-mill. If you want to assert the AC is fulfilled, then by all means, do so. But if that is your intention, then be consistent. I respect consistency far more than pretty theology. You cannot say that the AC is fulfilled physically and then claim a later spiritual fulfillment. Perhaps you could as a dispensationalist, but since the Church was made up of the elect Israel before Christ, then the Church received her fulfillment all the same.

Anyway, as it stands, I don't think the AC has been fulfilled, so allow me to demonstrate why. The primary issue is, if you are right, then we have discovered a contradiction in the Bible that simply cannot be reconciled. Josh. 13:16 says, "But the Israelites did not drive out the people of Geshur and Maacah, so they continue to live among the Israelites to this day." Or consider Judges 1:1, "After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"" If the land had been totally given to them, what was there left to possess? And yet, the account continues, saying "The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots." (Judges 1:19) God Himself flatly stated that they would not receive all the land in Judges 2:1-3, "The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you."" And, take care to note that this was spoken to Joshua (2:6).

Considering these problems, Calvin said:
John Calvin wrote:How then can these two things be reconciled, that God, as he had promised, gave possession of the land to the people, and yet they were excluded from some portion by the power or obstinate resistance of the enemy?" (John Calvin, Commentaries on The Book of Joshua (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979), p. 248)
He goes on to list the following solution:
John Calvin wrote:In order to remove this appearance of contradiction, it is necessary to distinguish between the certain, clear, and steadfast faithfulness of God in keeping his promises, and between the effeminacy and sluggishness of the people, in consequence of which the benefit of the divine goodness in a manner slipped through their hands. . . . The whole comes to this, that it was owing entirely to their own cowardice that they did not enjoy the divine goodness in all its fullness and integrity. (ibid)
When you consider the entire outline of Joshua, 21:43-35 should be seen as a summary statement that wraps up the charge issued in 1:2-9. Ryrie briefly comments on the passage, saying:
Charles Ryrie wrote:God had kept His projmise to give Israel the land of Canaan as recorded in Gen. 17:8. It is true that the Israelites had not yet fully conqured it, but God had told them they would do so gradually . . . The promise of Gen. 15:18-20 involving the larger territory will be fulfilled in the Millennium. (Charles Ryrie, Ryrie Study Bible: Expanded Edition (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995), p.366)
And further, Keil and Delitzsch comment:
K&D wrote:Notwithstanding the fact that many a tract of country still remained in the hands of the Canaanites, the promise that the land of Canaan should be given to the house of Israel for a possession had been fulfilled; for God had not promised the immediate and total destruction of the Canaanites, but only their gradual extermination (Ex. xxiii. 29, 30; Deut. vii. 22). And even though the Israelites never came into undisputed possession of the whole of the promised land, to the full extent of the boundaries laid down in Num. xxxiv. 1- 12, never conquering Tyre and Sidon for example, the promises of God were no more broken on that account than they were through the circumstance, that after the death of Joshua and the elder his contemporaries, Israel was sometimes hard pressed by the Canaanites; since the complete fulfilment of this promise was inseparably connected with the fidelity of Israel to the Lord. (C.F. Keil and F. Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I & II Samuel, 10 vols., (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1975), Vol. II, p. 216.)
If there is any further question . . . here is a map of the land Joshua conquered, as provided by the Bible Atlas Online (note: due to size, I cropped and edited the picture).

Image

(Here is the link to another map that shows the conquest of Canaan.

Now, Gen. 15:18-20 says that the Promised Land begins at the Nile and goes all the way to the Euphrates. It is very obvious that Joshua did not, in fact, conquer all of those lands. You'd have better luck arguing that the promises were fulfilled in Solomon's day. ;) It is probably better to take these passages you have referenced as a fulfillment of the land promises in Numbers 34.

Besides all of this, even if it were true that the land had been completel possessed, which we see is not the case, it would not matter because Gen. 17:8 says the land will be an "everlasting possession." The fact that they were exiled proves that the land still must be restored. It is here that you are required to allegorize the texts into spiritual land, but that is simply not taking God to mean what He says. Anyway . . .
Purita Lad wrote:In answer to your question concerning the resurrection, there is no problem with your view biblically. In fact, it is almost a postmillenial view. If we can just get rid of that 1,000 earthly reign and convince you that there is no reason whatsoever to put 1 Thess 4:16-17 before the "tribulation", we would almost be in complete agreement. Your problem is that Dispensational Theology in and of itself was founded and made popular by cranks and crackpots. In order to disassociate yourself from them, you will have to pretty much scrap every historical Dispensational work, from Darby to Scofield to Ryrie to Walvoord, and start over again. (This is what I did, and thus eventually became postmillennial). :)
Well, most of my theology comes from my own study. I refer to Ryrie, Walvoord, and Pentecost (among others) regularly - no reason to reinvent the wheel! - but they don't have everything right. I have no desire to disassociate myself from these particular people. Yes, some of them have a few bad ideas, but, by and large, I agree with their theology - even that blasted Hal Lindsey. The fact that they have fantastic interpretations of specific passages doesn't negate the entire line of thought. It is just left to others of us to more carefully examine these. That's what I'm doing, as are many others.

In the end, what separates you and me is our hermeneutic. I believe we should read OT prophecy absolutely literally. God said the AC was eternal, it is. It hasn't been fulfilled, so He promised a land with certain borders to the Jewish people, and they will get it. All of the Messanic Kingdom prophecies throughout the Major and Minor prophets, they will be fulfilled to the letter as written. I recognize figure of speech and other such language tools, but I do not believe in allegorizing or spiritualizing the texts to apply them to us. Ezekiel 40-46 talks about the restored Jewish Temple in the last days - I believe there will be a restored Jewish Temple in the last days. Israel means Israel, the Church means the Church, and 1000 years means 1000 years. So, it's a hermeneutical issue. All I really want you to see is how my hermeneutic leads me to my conclusions. The fact that you reject the way I read Scripture, especially the OT, doesn't change matters. If I read them the way you do, I'd have come to your conclusions a long time ago :)

God bless
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Post by puritan lad »

Jac,

I really don't want it both ways. The Abrahamic Covenant, in my view, is Spiritual, and was fulfilled by the only seed of Abraham, which is Christ. I simply put the Joshua passages up to show that the Israelites did in fact obtain all the land promised to them under the Covenant.

As far as it being everlasting, Gary DeMar points out that the promise of the Covenant, from your point of view, has failed using the Biblical definition of "everlasting". The Covenant cannot be said to be everlasting since it has been on hold for 1,936 years (at least). The AC is being fulfilled in the church, as I pointed out in Galatians 3. The New Covenant is all-inclusive in regards to race. The Old Covenant has been abolished for good. Jews can (and will) be grafted back in, but there is only one vine, which is Christ.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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Jac3510
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Post by Jac3510 »

I really don't want it both ways. The Abrahamic Covenant, in my view, is Spiritual, and was fulfilled by the only seed of Abraham, which is Christ. I simply put the Joshua passages up to show that the Israelites did in fact obtain all the land promised to them under the Covenant.
I know that's the stock position, but I'm saying it doesn't work for me because the passage in Joshua you site as a proof text says that ALL the promises had been fulfilled. If, then, this is in the context of the land promised to Abraham, then it also must include the other promises to him.

Besides, if you insist that even the land promises have been fulfilled, then you believe in an errant Bible as shown above. They did not conquer all the land promised in Genesis. You have to reconcile that problem, not me.
As far as it being everlasting, Gary DeMar points out that the promise of the Covenant, from your point of view, has failed using the Biblical definition of "everlasting". The Covenant cannot be said to be everlasting since it has been on hold for 1,936 years (at least). The AC is being fulfilled in the church, as I pointed out in Galatians 3. The New Covenant is all-inclusive in regards to race. The Old Covenant has been abolished for good. Jews can (and will) be grafted back in, but there is only one vine, which is Christ.
All the word "everlasting" means is that it will never end. God tells the people that they will possess the land forever, but He doesn't promise them that they will live in it at all times. He tells them that if they disobey, they will be exiled, which is the case today. However, God cannot fail to return them to the land, or else He would be renigging on His promise.

Secondly, you are using the terms "New Covenant" and "Old Covenant" too loosely. The former is clearly defined in Jeremiah, and it is part of the Abrahamic Covenant, as are the Palestinian and Davidic Covenants. Against this, the "Old Covenant" is a term theologians have invented. Are you referring to the Mosaic Covenant? I agree that it is gone. I don't believe we are under it in any form or any fashion, nor will we (or the Jews) ever be placed under it again. It was a temporary and conditional covenant founded AFTER the Abrahamic Covenant. It was limited to a particular people: the Jews living in the land of Palestine prior to Christ.

It is wrong to say that the fulfillment and removal of the MC removes and fulfills the AC. As the latter is everlasting and unconditional, it must be fulfilled to the people to whom it was promised, which was the Jews. Again, you can say that it has not been fulfilled and that it is everlasting if you like and simply disagree with the definition of "Jew." However, you cannot say that it was fulfilled and is not everlasting and then say that it is being spiritually fulfilled today. That's trying to have it both ways.

And, as an aside, Gal. 3 is soteriological, not eschatological. I have the same debate - as you would, I imagine - with egalitarians who try to use it to prove the women can be pastors. It is not ecclesiological; it is soteriological. Thus, all - both Jew and Gentile - are brought into one body in the Church, which is distinct from Israel. She will be restored as per Deut 30 and Rom. 11.

All in the hermeneutic, my friend. Viva la historical-grammatical interpretation! ;)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by puritan lad »

Jac3510 wrote:Besides, if you insist that even the land promises have been fulfilled, then you believe in an errant Bible as shown above. They did not conquer all the land promised in Genesis. You have to reconcile that problem, not me
Joshua says that Israel inherited all the land.

“So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass."
(Joshua 21:43-45)

Notice the last part. Not a word failed concerning any of the promises to Israel. I don't see how you can exclude the Abrahamic Covenant. I'm curious as to how you would interpret this. (You could use my Calvinist interpretation of "all" here, but I don't see that applicable in this case.)

You may want to do a study on Biblical Covenants from a Covenant perspective. I would recommend Meridith Kline's Treaties of the Great King.
Jac3510 wrote:All in the hermeneutic, my friend. Viva la historical-grammatical interpretation! ;)
Yes. The 3 main objections (there are others) that I have to your hermeneutic are:

1.) It must ignore dozens of clearly stated time frame references.
2.) It, in many cases, makes prophetic passages totally irrelevant to the audience in which it was written. (ie. If the Historical or Dispensational view is correct, than the book of Revelation would have been of little interest to the First Century churches of Asia, who were told to "read, hear, and keep" the words of the prophecy. (Rev. 1:3).)
3.) It imports items into passages that just aren't there (ie. tribulation in 1 Thess. 4, Antichrist in Daniel and Revelation, etc.) Note: One of my favorite Dispensationalist interpretations is that the phrase "Come up here!" in Rev. 4:1 represents the "rapture", since the word "church" is never used after this. :wink: Maybe I could argue that the church gets annihilated.

I'm not saying that you personally are guilty of #3, but #1 and #2 are a problem for you.

Anyways, good luck with your new Dispensationalist interpretation. You camp could really use it.

God Bless,

PL
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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Post by Jac3510 »

Notice the last part. Not a word failed concerning any of the promises to Israel. I don't see how you can exclude the Abrahamic Covenant. I'm curious as to how you would interpret this. (You could use my Calvinist interpretation of "all" here, but I don't see that applicable in this case.)

You may want to do a study on Biblical Covenants from a Covenant perspective. I would recommend Meridith Kline's Treaties of the Great King.
As I said, if you take that verse as saying that the land promises of Gen. 15 have been fulfilled, then you have to a) believe in an errant Bible (because they did not, even by the definitions given within the text itself) and b) you cannot say that the Church is spiritually fulfilling the AC today.

A much better answer is that the promises fulfilled were all those promised to the Israelites through Moses in Numbers 34. I know you see "forefathers" and think "Abraham," is included, but by that logic, Adam would be included as well, which would mean the Gen. 3:15 promise would have to be fulfilled also.

So, a literal reading of the text is that all the promises regarding the land made to the Exodus generation - the one that was killed off by God - was fulfilled in that God did, in fact, give them that land. Their misuse of it and refusal to take it all invadates nothing, and thus, the AC is not in view here.
1.) It must ignore dozens of clearly stated time frame references.
You'd have to give examples . . .
2.) It, in many cases, makes prophetic passages totally irrelevant to the audience in which it was written. (ie. If the Historical or Dispensational view is correct, than the book of Revelation would have been of little interest to the First Century churches of Asia, who were told to "read, hear, and keep" the words of the prophecy. (Rev. 1:3).)
Strict futurist interpretations do have this problem, but if we were to analyze these in depth, you would find that this doesn't affect me at all. I believe strongly in immediate typological fulfillments based on both Scripture and OT precedent.
3.) It imports items into passages that just aren't there (ie. tribulation in 1 Thess. 4, Antichrist in Daniel and Revelation, etc.) Note: One of my favorite Dispensationalist interpretations is that the phrase "Come up here!" in Rev. 4:1 represents the "rapture", since the word "church" is never used after this. Maybe I could argue that the church gets annihilated.
Yes, Rev. 4:1 is silly. I don't see the Rapture in the Revelation. Anyway, a verse by verse, inductive analysis followed by deductive comparison prevents eisogesis. Many have taken the opposite road and come to faulty conclusions. Thus, these passages are dealt with on their own first and compared to others later. Do that, and you have no problems :)

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by Canuckster1127 »

Sorry.

Can't resist.

Let's all sing together!

"My hope is built on nothing less,
Than Scofield's notes and Moody Press ....."

Now in the interest of fairness,

Image

Carry on. ;) :lol:
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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