How do you view Islam? Vote in Poll

[Gman]

Praying five times a day and in the right direction is not a good deed but a reminder to a devout beleiver. It is like calling a loved one from work to remind yourself of your devotion to them.

I would disagree with this... Muslims require faith and works such as the Five Pillars of Islam, (their duties or obligations of faith). The Five Pillars of Islam are the core beliefs that shape Muslim thought, deed, and society. A Muslim who fulfills the Five Pillars of Islam, remains in the faith of Islam, and sincerely repents of his sins, will make it to Jannah (paradise). If he performs the Five Pillars but does not remain in the faith, he will not be saved.

The Five Pillars are the following:

1. Shahadah: The declaration of faith
2. Salat: Prayer (performed five times a day facing towards Mecca...)
3. Zakat: Charity or concern for the needy
4. Saum: Fasting during Ramadan or self-purification
5. Hajj: The pilgrimage to Mecca.

Salvation is also no guarantee for the believer...

Sura 23:102-103 states, "In the day of judgement, they whose balances shall be heavy with good works, shall be successful, but they whose balances shall be light are those who shall lose their souls and shall remain in hell forever.

Sura 5:9 states, "Allah promises those who believe and do good deeds: For them is forgiveness and a great reward."

Salvation is based upon one's own merit, for one's good deeds must outweigh one's bad deeds.

As for the Jewish faith, it's works as well, but more of a focus on the law, (or Torah).

[zstep14]

Are some of the people of Islam dangerous or is it Islam itself, and the doctrines that the Qur'an teaches?

What passages from the Qur'an teach violence upon anyone who is not Muslim? And, doesn't the Bible have a few verses like that?

Thanks in advance.

[Gman]

Are some of the people of Islam dangerous or is it Islam itself, and the doctrines that the Qur'an teaches?

I wouldn't go as far as saying that anyone who is Islamic is dangerous... We live in the 21st century now. I know some muslims that wouldn't even hurt a fly... Perhaps I would say an Islamic fundamentalist, (such as a Bin Laden type) would be a concern. As for me and my studies (I can't speak for everyone here..), I would say it's more the doctrine that is a problem than the people. The majority of the Muslims are good people who are just innocently led to believe that Islam is a religion of a holy God.

First of all nowhere in the Quran is it ever commanded to love... Now there are verses that tells what God loves such as Surah 2:195, but it is more of a conditional kind of love than commanded... And you will find this throughout the Quran.

Surah 2:195, "And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah and make not your own hands contribute to your destruction but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good."

What passages from the Qur'an teach violence upon anyone who is not Muslim?

Many... Here are just a few. Someone told me that there are 164 Jihad verses like this but I still haven't counted them all yet.

Surah 4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.

Surah 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

Body mutilation...

Surah 8:12 make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Surah 5:38 As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

War is good for you?

Surah 2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

Did you know - Surah (4:34) orders a man to beat his wife if she doesn't obey him?

Surah 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

And don't make friends with Jews or Christians...

Sura 5:51 O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as friends; these are friends of one another. And whoever amongst you takes them for friends he is indeed one of them. Surely Allah guides not the unjust people.

On top of that the Quran teaches that it's believers must dominate (by jihad) all the other religons..

Sura 61:9 He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them.

And, doesn't the Bible have a few verses like that?

A trickier question, but yes it does, and on rarer occasions... It is more of a moral focus on evil however than a focus on a particular religion or group of people, (an us and them "label" approach). The Quran often quotes unbelievers as simply being "they" or "them" not their moral stance... (like if you are Muslim you are good, if not you are bad... that's about it).

God's wrath comes about because God's holiness and love have been violated by the sinfulness of man which can happen on any person whether he is a Jew, Christian, Buddist, Muslim, etc... (at least what I see according to the Bible). Just because someone claims to be Christian, Jew, etc.. doesn't mean that God put's his seal of approval on their every move. It's not a black or white issue, (as Islam claims). In the Bible we are to "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourelves." 2 Cor. 13:5, not just assume you are right under God to kill them just because they might oppose your messenger... They probably don't even know who your messenger is...

Now there is a controversial verse where God instructs the Israeli's to kill every man, woman and child of the Midianites (Numbers 31:15-18 ) but not body mutilation such as Surah 8:12. When I was younger I couldn't believe a loving God could kill women and children. In fact I rejected the Bible because of it. But now I believe this was instructed because these people were remnants of the Nephilim, a group of people that cohabitated with evil spirit beings. Not everyone here would probably agree with this, but I think the evidence is clear, (maybe I can clarify in a different discussion or debate).

When the judgements come to earth, it will be God doing it and not people doing the judgements. And when he does judge, he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Notice that this is also directed towards the Israelis and calling them evil in their ways. You wouldn't necessarliy find a verse like this calling Muslims evil (by God) in the Quran. It just assumes that they are right in their ways. If they (the unbelievers) oppose Allah and Muhammud then wipe them out.

Hope this helps...
G -

[Gman]

In my opinion, if Islam wants to further it's cause, it must been done through love and NOT force.... Promoting God's love is the only way to spread a religion. Any other means only results in hatred and resentment. It's a VERY simple lesson to understand... The crusades was another bad example of spreading Christain love..

G -

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

In my opinion, if Islam wants to further it's cause, it must been done through love and NOT force.... Promoting God's love is the only way to spread a religion. Any other means only results in hatred and resentment. It's a VERY simple lesson to understand... The crusades was another bad example of spreading Christain love..

G -

1) Is Allah a loving God?
2) Doesn't trying to spread God's love produce hatred no matter how it's done? If I talk to an atheist I know about God's love, isn't he just going to get cheesed at me? I don't have to attack people to tick them off.
3) Who says the Crusades were an attempt to spread Christianity? Weren't the area invaded previously part of the Eastern Roman Empire, which was invaded by the Muslims?

Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne'er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders' expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.

Urban II gave the Crusaders two goals, both of which would remain central to the eastern Crusades for centuries. The first was to rescue the Christians of the East. ...

The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

Etc, etc, etc. Nobody cries about Spain's Reconquista-yet everyone cries about the Crusades which were trying to do the same thing-take back conquered lands.

[Canuckster1127]

I'm reading a book by a friend of mine who is on furlough from Missions work in Coite D'Ivoire and Paris (in the Muslim neighborhoods.)

The Book is called, "From 911 to 666" by Ralph Stice. It ties together Ralph's experience, education (He has a master's in Missiology) and theology (Premillenial, Post Trib) to present a case for an Islamic Anti-Christ and gives a pretty stark view of what really is driving the average Muslim on the street.

Initially I had some pretty strong reservations about the book and was reading it as a courtesy to a friend. My kneejerk response to the title was almost to reject it as another Hal Lindsay type popular eschatological piece of tripe.

Getting into it now, I have to say that he is pretty careful to avoid that and most of what he has to say is more in terms of helping people to understand the eschatology of Islam and some of the political and cultural forces as work.

As Ralph has spent over 15 years in the midst of Muslims and can give a pretty clear first hand account, what he has to say if helping to open my eyes to some things I haven't understood or seen before.

I'll post more as I digest it and when I'm finished.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193212 ... 69?ie=UTF8

[Judah]

For those who are interested in the subject of Islam, I have a page here on my website that I set up as an information resource.
Included are several concise articles written by those with authentic and authoritative credentials plus a great many links to sites that provide further information and analysis.

KMart has made some essential and accurate points regarding the Crusades and from my page I also link to a couple of essays by reputable Crusade historians. Much is misunderstood about the Crusades as it is fashionable at present to denigrate Western civilization and many have been taught a negatively biased slant on this aspect of Christian history.

I hope you find this resource on Islam to be thought provoking and useful.

[Gman]

The Book is called, "From 911 to 666" by Ralph Stice. It ties together Ralph's experience, education (He has a master's in Missiology) and theology (Premillenial, Post Trib) to present a case for an Islamic Anti-Christ and gives a pretty stark view of what really is driving the average Muslim on the street.

Hi Bart,

I'm just wondering does it have anything to do with Ahmadinejad the Iranian President? I guess Ahmadinejad had a "vision" and a strange green light surround him at the U.N.. He now thinks he has personal role in ushering in the return of the Shiite Muslim messiah who will in turn bring about an Islamic armageddon which would have the world submit to Islam. Check this weird one out...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=48225

Kmart, in response to what you said..

1) Is Allah a loving God?

As per my previous messsages, I think you know where I stand on this.. I think my position with the muslim cause is that they should promote it if they want to suceed in this 21st century, but if they really follow the Quran they probably can't.. Ouch.

2) Doesn't trying to spread God's love produce hatred no matter how it's done? If I talk to an atheist I know about God's love, isn't he just going to get cheesed at me? I don't have to attack people to tick them off.

It depends, I guess. I really don't know. Perhaps only God knows... Sometimes a person may reject the gospel at first with hatred, then come to their senses later... Like planting seeds, it may take awhile for the word of God to take root. Sometimes yes, sometimes no... Does it ALWAYS produce hatred? I would question that...

3) Who says the Crusades were an attempt to spread Christianity? Weren't the area invaded previously part of the Eastern Roman Empire, which was invaded by the Muslims?

Yes I know that force was used back then by the Catholics to push out the invading Muslims... On top of that, Israeli's were told by God to push out the invading religions in their country and kill the opposition on the spot. However was this always the case? How did Christianity become the official religon of the Roman Empire? Was it always by force? There were also many crusades against not only Muslims, but also Christian heretics and personal enemies of the Papacy or other powerful monarchs. If you were to say that they were all justifed, (all 10 of them) I think it is questionable again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

[Gman]

For those who are interested in the subject of Islam, I have a page here on my website that I set up as an information resource.
Included are several concise articles written by those with authentic and authoritative credentials plus a great many links to sites that provide further information and analysis.

Nice website Judah... The power from down under..

[Canuckster1127]

GMan,

I'll let you know when I finish reading it.

He seems to go to reasonable lengths to avoid going into Hal Lindsay like specificity.

The primary point appears to be that futurist type interpretation has focused upon super powers etc and failed to account for Armeggedon etc to take place in the context of a Middle East location. As such, what is in place would necessarily include Muslims.

I'm more interested in his socio-political insights into Islam than I am another futurist type interpretation of prophecy. That is likely just butn out and aversion to what I've seen throughout my lifetime in terms of the Hal Lindsay type of schlock.

Maybe I'll feel different as I read through the rest.

Bart

[Judah]

I have just been reading over this thread in it's entirity and have some points to note which may shed more light on an understanding of Islam.

Regarding the way that the Qur'an is to be interpreted, it is a mistake to pick out just any verse and hold it up as "what Islam says" without subjecting it to the principle of nasikh. This is the Islamic theology of abrogation whereby verses written later, and which conflict with earlier ones, will negate or abrogate those earlier verses. Picking up a Qur'an and reading it from cover to cover will not help you to know which verses abrogate which other verses as the book is not presented in chronological order. Instead, the longer surahs (chapters) are presented first and they go in order according to number of words they contain, the shortest one last. Pay attention to those verses of Surah 9 as they abrogate many of the more peaceful seeming ones, and they are the ones which speak of slaying the infidels.

Many Muslims are not unlike nominal Christians with an appalling lack of literacy as regards their holy book. Many are peaceful in their outlook and do not want to be roped into terrorism or other hateful crimes. They want to go about their daily lives just as the rest of us, enjoying family, friends, work and recreation pursuits. These Muslims will just as easily be labelled apostates by their more devout brothers, and they are subject to the sword in the same way if pressured and they resist. And yes, as Tim has said above, they fear for their lives if they resist - or if they convert to any other faith. There is a strong sense of brotherhood among Muslims and a wariness to condemn another Muslim, thus the huge silence from so-called "moderate Muslims" who do not denounce the devout ones who claim to be doing the will of Allah. It is better for them to accede to the mistaken Western notion of "Islamic fundamentalism" or "twisted Islam" or "Islamic facism" rather than accept the truth, that this is true Islam, Islam of the correctly interpreted Qur'an whereby nasikh is observed.

Another important point to remember is the principle of taqiyya, or "holy hypocrisy" which allows Muslims to deceive and give a false rendition of the truth - or simply not tell the truth when it suits their cause not to do so. There is a simple Islamic proverb that says: “If you can't cut your enemies' hand, kiss it.” Therefore one must be very careful of where one gathers knowledge of Islam, and hearing it from the mouth of an Islamic cleric (as spoken to you, an infidel) may not be as truthful as hearing it from another informed source that is not accountable to Islam. This problem has arisen whereby our world leaders will be advised by top Muslim "spokespeople" and are often deceived because their information is not reliable. I listen to the words of Tony Blair and George Bush and they are loaded with misinformation concerning the true nature and intent of Islam. It is frightening to think they are so deceived - unless this is some kind of diplomatic strategy and they really do know better. However, hearing that Tony Blair keeps a Qur'an beside his bed and has twice read it from cover to cover does not fill me with confidence. The surahs in the latter part of the book are the earlier and more peaceful ones. George Bush cannot bring himself to identify the real name of the enemy, although he has come closer with his term "Islamic fascism" as opposed to simply "terror" but a knowledge of the pure Islamic agenda (as per the Qur'an) is so far downplayed. Of course, there will be a huge Muslim backlash if he ever gets quite so bold, greater than the one that already occurred to have him apologize in dhimmitude.

Islam is likened to Judaism and Christianity because it claims commonality with Abraham. In fact, Islam appropriates the history of Judaism and Christianity to itself. One of the striking differences between Islam and the other two is the refusal to accept God as Father. To the Muslim, God (Allah) is definitely not a father, and therefore He did not have a son. Jesus is not the son of God in their eyes. Jesus is just another prophet, certainly one whom they revere, but not considered as great as Muhammad. Muslims accuse Christians of polytheism, saying that we worship three gods.

It is of note that Mohammed, when preaching to the Meccans, did not introduce a new god, but proclaimed that one of their many gods, Allah, was the greatest and only god. After all, the Meccans did not accuse Mohammed of preaching a different god than they knew. He demanded that they believe in one god, not many as were accepted before. In effect, Muhammad was cleverly backing for a win and a place - while reigning in the beliefs of his own pagan Arab brothers who already worshipped the god called Allah, he was linking the name of Allah to the religious histories of Judaism and Christianity as a way to claim them also for Islam.

Dallas M. Roark, Ph.D. writing in his article Is there a true religion? argues this position and sums up as follows:

We cannot conclude that the god of Islam is the same as Yahweh of the Old Testament who becomes Incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth to redeem mankind. This finality in Christ eliminates any other coming prophet such as Muhammad. The epistle of Hebrews speaks with finality about God's last word, his highest word, coming in his Son. Islam cannot therefore be regarded as an extension, culmination, or completion of the Judeo-Christian tradition. While there are prophets mentioned in the New Testament they were in agreement with the Christian Gospel and did not seek to supersede the New Testament revelation or claim a different revelation.
(Mt. 23:34; Acts 11:27-29; 13:2-3; 15:32;21:9-11; 1 Cor. 12:28-29; Eph. 2:20; 3:5;4:11, for example)

Well, I have written at length and probably bored you all to tears - those of you who have managed to get to the bottom here.
If you are interested in more on this subject, then pushing aside all humility, I will offer a couple or so links to material on my own website (of which Gman kindly comments well).

Just what is it about Islam?
Islam
Islam and Christianity

[Gman]

Well, I have written at length and probably bored you all to tears - those of you who have managed to get to the bottom here.

Judah, you haven't bored me yet... I found it interesting what you wrote here and on your website. I think that most likely our ultimate struggle in the 21 century may be against Islam (and possibly many more years to come now)... I think another attack by the extremist is just around the corner. So we better be prepared to separate the right from the wrong...

Btw, I didn't do to good on that Islam quiz of yours... Ouch

G -

[Judah]

Here is a new article of interest by Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, International Director of Barnabas Fund and the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity.
Dr Sookhdeo was raised a Muslim but later converted to Christianity. He holds a PhD from the School of Oriental and African Studies, London University and was awarded a Doctor of Divinity by Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon for his work in the field of pluralism. He has written and lectures widely in the field of other faiths.

{...clip...} The Islamic creed is non-negotiable. Those who do not share this creed are despised as kafir (infidels). Hatred of non-Muslims is preached in many British mosques.

Meanwhile Islamic law, sharia, is deemed by the majority of Muslims unalterable. Its medieval formulations cannot be updated. Yet it is this discriminatory law which many British Muslims wish to see enforced.

Finally the umma, the worldwide community of Muslims, is the primary focus of loyalty. It represents the political as well as the religious. Muslims have a duty to defend each other. This defensive jihad is what leads Muslims to go and fight in places such as Iraq.

............

There is a positive aspect to a multiculturalism where people share and enjoy each other's cultures. But the UK's well-meaning policy of validating every faith and ethnic community culturally, in a depoliticised way, is naí¯ve when it comes to Islam. For Islam does not separate the sacred from the secular: it seeks earthly power over earthly territory. The result is that already the UK has reached the stage of parallel societies, where purely Muslim areas function in isolation.

Worse, this is about to be made semi-official. In West Ham a gigantic mosque is planned by the radical Tablighi Jamaat group. The London Thames Gateway Development Corporation says that the new mosque will make West Ham a “cultural and religious destination”. This will be nothing less than an Islamic quarter of our capital city. But has anyone asked the people of West Ham? The non-Muslims? The moderate Muslims such as Barelwis and Sufis? The Muslim women? And shouldn't the Government be looking into why a movement claimed as inspiration by a number of convicted terrorists should be allowed to control a whole community?

............

I believe Islam needs different treatment from other faiths because Islam is different from other faiths. It is the only one which teaches its followers to gain political power and then impose a law which governs every aspect of life, discriminating against women and non-believers alike. And this is ultimately why a naive multiculturalism leads not to a mosaic of cultures living in harmony, but to one threatened by Islamic extremism.

Most British Muslims are not supporters of terrorism. Some have embraced Western liberal values and society. Others are peaceful but simply prefer to live in their own separate community. Mainstream figures such as Shahid Malik MP have courageously called for British Muslims to fight against extremism.

But unless all of us, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, join forces against the kind of multiculturalism which has nurtured extremism, we may eventually find that whole swathes of London and other cities have become “cultural and religious destinations” dominated by Islamic extremists - men who would remove the very freedoms so many moderate British Muslims now appreciate.

Read the whole article here: SOURCE

[Judah]

Gman, have another go at the quiz.
People invariably do better on the second and third time around!

[Lizard Man]

Submission to God and the way to true inner-peace & joy.