Hello PL,
Last night I missed your initial post. I went immediately to the last post in the thread and didn't find your earlier entry till this morning. Here's my response to your longer post above…..
We are called to test the “spirits” (1 John 4:1), and we do so by “examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things are so". (Acts 17:11). Universalism doesn't pass the smell test. It is a lie, and we know who the father of lies is (John 8:44).
Let's call this 'Example One' [E1]. E1 demonstrates a very common specimen of irrelevant 'point scoring', i.e., making a statement that some view or concept is false without presenting a shred of significant evidence to sustain the charge. E1 is mere opinion, and opinion carries no actual weight in an intelligent discussion, even though its practitioners often use references (as re the Scripture quotes above) that are inevitably also irrelevant to meaningful debate. I'm not necessarily dissing you, PL, as virtually everyone who posts to theology boards, including me, uses this tactic at one time or another. Let's try to avoid it and keep the debate intelligent, intellectually stimulating and on-track, okay?
Putting it politely, this is nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in this passage (or anywhere else) to suggest that “the stain of falsity [evil] is destined to be removed from human spirit and all creation FOREVER”. In fact, we have testimony quite to the contrary, throughout the scriptures, as I have and will elaborate on.
“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
“The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, The last enemy that will be abolished is death.” (1Cor 15:22-28).
“And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 'O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?'" (1Cor15:49-55)
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Mat 5:48).
“….when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away” (1Cor 13:10).
Use a dictionary if necessary to find the proper association of words and phrases such as:
* all shall be made alive [life/true/perfect/holy, etc. =one set of associated signifiers. death/false/corrupt/unrighteous, etc. is an opposite set of associated signifiers. The former stand in tension and resistance to the latter, and vice versa]
* He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. [indicating the elimination of all untruth/falsity. falsity, introduced by Adam's sin into creation, is the ultimate enemy of God]
* The last enemy that will be abolished is death. [death is caused by and corresponds closely to falsity/evil]
* this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. [falsity is that which denies a thing its perfection; when a thing is purely true, it is perfect…Adam's and creation's original state]
* you are to be perfect [true=perfection; false=imperfection]
* when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away
I believe you stand corrected.
In response to my pointing out that Jude 1:7 actually says that some suffer the punishment of eternal fire, you posted:
I assign the plain interpretation, especially backed up by the fact that “that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Plain interpretation? There is no plain interpretation to assign, PL. In fact, you twist Jude 1:7 and other Scriptures to mean what you want them to say. In fact, you attempted to use this as a 'proof' that hell is eternal and the passage says no such thing! I thought it was only we universalists who twisted Scripture?
Tell me dear cult member, where did either Paul or Jesus mention anything about eternal punishment being equivalent to a purifying fire. God punishment on the wicked is not "purifying" or reformatory in any way. It is retributive, described as "vengeance", "wrath", and "fury". Jesus said it was “eternal punishment”. If this is “esoteric/spiritual/figurative language”, then what about the "eternal life" of the believer?
"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD, as in the days of old and as in former years” (Mal 3:2-4). [Purification by fire equals cleansing.]
"Thus says the LORD, "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit in it,' So I will act on behalf of My servants In order not to destroy all of them. And I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there” (Isa 65:8-9) [will not destroy all of them refers in its deeper sense to elements within every human spirit. This is spiritual language that may be interpreted with perfect consistency throughout the entire Bible. Consistency and coherence are evidences of truth]
“I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1Cor 5:5). [Salvation accomplished specifically in the midst of destruction, exactly to the contrary of what you've claimed, PL]
"For everyone will be salted with fire” (Mark 9:49). [what purpose could be served by literally everyone being salted with fire if fire brings only the destruction of individuals, PL? Does this mean everyone will be destroyed in your theology?]
"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you. And I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out; and I shall bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I shall enter into judgment with you face to face.
"As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD. And I shall make you pass under the rod, and I shall bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I shall purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I shall bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD. As for you, O house of Israel," thus says the Lord GOD, "Go, serve everyone his idols; but later, you will surely listen to Me, and My holy name you will profane no longer with your gifts and with your idols.
"For on My holy mountain, on the high mountain of Israel," declares the Lord GOD, "there the whole house of Israel, all of them, will serve Me in the land; there I shall accept them, and there I shall seek your contributions and the choicest of your gifts, with all your holy things. As a soothing aroma I shall accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I shall prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations. And you will know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers.
And there you will remember your ways and all your deeds, with which you have defiled yourselves; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for all the evil things that you have done. Then you will know that I am the LORD when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways or according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD'" (Ezek 20:33-44)
[Yes, I know this was a long one…but it succinctly demolishes your statement,
“where did either Paul or Jesus mention anything about eternal punishment being equivalent to a purifying fire. God punishment on the wicked is not "purifying" or reformatory in any way. It is retributive, described as "vengeance", "wrath", and "fury"]
Of course, Jesus Christ was totally unaware of any future blessing upon Judas Iscariot.
Prove it. [hint:
Mat 26:24 is completely inadequate to arrive at the conclusion that future blessing was not available to Judas Iscariot. You'll have to do better than this.]
By the way. I don't think you ever answered my original question. Will Satan eventually end up in Heaven?
I don't know.
In response to my challenge to you to refute the principle God established with Abram that He would not destroy a whole if there were any good in it, you posted….
You have to take that up with the Arminians.
Actually, this principle has nothing whatever to do with the Calvinist/Arminian debate. You're avoiding my challenge. Again, I want you to show me how this principle is wrong.
Who says that there is any good residing in any individual? Certainly not the Bible.
“There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man” (Jn 1:9)
“In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord” (Luke 1:5-6) [I suspect you're trying to impose Mark 10:18 as a blanket concept on all humanity. Actually, Jesus states in this verse that only God is wholly true or literally perfect and good. Godly illumination is a form of good, and it's found in all men along with the falsity of evil in some ratio.
The Calvinist error of applying regeneration wholly to the saved and not at all to the unsaved is one of the most irrational and easily disproved doctrines I've found. Unfortunately, many Arminians have also adopted this error. As to your inferring that there's no good in a human, a spirit/mind totally deprived of spiritual life can only equate to total chaos and death. In both the soul completely regenerate and completely unregenerate, there could be no possibility of moral choice. Pure truth knows nothing of morality by virtue of its perfection; when only truth and good exist, there's no point of reference to evil. Likewise, the soul/mind totally darkened would have no moral responsibility…but this is a moot point, because, as stated earlier, total falsity ultimately corresponds only to total chaos and destruction.
Earlier in this thread I think I provided a a link to my refutation of the error of whole and instantaneous regeneration in a critique of A.W. Pink. No one has been able to refute it to date. If you're able, take a shot at it. Logically, there has to be some ratio of both good and evil in every human being in order for moral precept to bear upon the mind…and literally every human being recognizes normative rules on some level.
The fact is that it is not God's plan to purge evil from all of creation
This has been refuted above.
How have you violated the Bible? You have done your best to explain it away, “spiritualizing” certain passages that you don't like (with no basis in truth whatsoever), in a vain attempt to support your foolish nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures, figurative or otherwise, that supports universalism. (In fact, you could make a better case for annihilationism, though that is another heresy which is easy to disprove as well.)
Please refer to Example One in the beginning of this post and try again. I've responded to your charges with what I believe to be well reasoned responses.
Your opinions are worthless unless you're able to substantiate them, PL. If the "heresies" you stand against are so easy to disprove, why are you currently failing miserably?[/quote]
