The Old Testament

[Birdie]

So, the Old Testament. Is that stuff suppose to have happen or is it just like Aesop's Fables where each is just a story and it always have a moral? Like disobey God, get turned into sand. Disobey God, and get eat by a whale. Disobey God, and get plagued by locust. And the moral of this story is, listen to God. I mean to me some stories seem plausible, but some of them seem like a tall tale or just a myth. And why does God seem so angry in the Old Testament? Wasn't God love?

[Gman]

Hi Birdie,

Now that is a good question.. I remember looking through the Old Testament as a younger lad (I'm in my 40's now) and said to myself, if this is the God of the bible I don't want to have anything to do with him or it.. I'll answer some of what I know about this, perhaps Bart and others will chime into this too later.

Here is how I understand all this God and disobedience stuff. First of all, God can or will either correct (or even kill) an individual or others if they get too far out of line.. When I say out of line here, I mean sin, which means in my book walking out of love. Since God is pure love then anything that is non-loving kind of get kicks out of his way so to speak... It can't exist with evil whatsoever..

This, I believe this is where God changes his hat into a policeman's hat then may start writing tickets to someone who has disobeyed the law.. After writing many tickets to that person and that person still disobeys, he then puts them into jail. But God finds compassion on the person and decides to let them go free. Once free, however this person decides to break all the laws again and this time goes on murder rampage... What is God the policeman going to do to keep the justice? In other words, what does our policemen and women today do when they run into this kind of situation? As harsh as it may sound, someone has to do something here to protect innocent life. And if they shoot at them or others, they will probably have to shoot back also and possibly kill them too.

Usually the real hard action to disobedience comes after many many years of warnings. It is referred to as God's long suffering, where he waits and waits for people to change their non-loving ways then finally get's real mad (or is forced into getting mad) when they don't... I will cite scripture if you would like. Since we are made in the image of God, I know there are times in my life were this can happen, (not that I would go bezerk and start killing everyone hopefully). When someone starts pressing my buttons, at first I may at first try to ignore them, then probably try to warn them, then finally maybe explode.. I think it is close to the same as in God, except I think God has a bigger tolerance of people than us and knows we are fallible...

Ultimatley, I believe God HAS to do something (intervene with justice) in our lives because ultimately we will probably end up killing ourselves.. It seems that perhaps we are not too far away from that today...

I always liked Ezekiel 33:11. It's one of God's responses to evil. It's a question that he poses to his people. In the question you can also see that he DOES NOT delight in the death of the wicked or evil people, and asks, "Why are you doing this evil that results in death?"

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Hope this helps, take care Birdie...

G -

[Gman]

Bart,

I see you are making your rounds online... Is there something you could add to Birdie's question?

Thanks,
G -

[Canuckster1127]

This article from the main board addresses many of these issues.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/killergod.html

Why Does the God of the Old Testament Seem So Cruel and Judgmental?
by Rich Deem

Introduction

The God in the Old Testament seems to have many personalities; cruel, unjust, kind, loving, etc."1 There are, however, two major areas which we humans have a difficult time reconciling - God's love vs. God's righteousness. God is loving, but God's love requires God's justice. As I discipline my three children when they disobey, God disciplines us if we don't meet His requirements. The problem for us is that we cannot keep all of God's laws because of our selfishness and self-centeredness.2 God would have been completely just and loving in destroying all of us for our disobedience to Him. It is only through His extraordinary love and grace that we are allowed into His presence.

If you were to read atheist's websites, you will often find complaints that the God of the Bible arbitrarily ordered the destruction of entire cities, such as Jericho, just to allow the Jews to have a homeland in the Middle East. How could a loving God command the destruction of all those innocent people? The argument sounds good, but it is utterly false. The unstated assumption is that the people who God ordered destroyed were morally equivalent to the Jews, who replaced them. However, this is what the Bible says about the people who were destroyed:

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)

Okay, how "wicked" could those people have been? How about killing their own sons and daughters by burning them in sacrifices to their gods:

"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

The wickedness of these people is confirmed in other verses of the Bible.3 So we see that these people are not quite as innocent as the atheists would like you to believe. Then again, maybe those atheists believe that killing your children is not all bad. After all, killing viable pre-born babies is legal in this country (it's called a choice, a.k.a. abortion). For these reasons (and others4), God ordered the destruction of the peoples whom the Israelites dispossessed.
Conclusion

In order to maintain His righteousness, God must judge sin - everything that goes against His character. If God let everyone into heaven, then He would have to allow in people such as Stalin and Hitler. Obviously, heaven would not be a good place to be with the likes of those people there. Therefore, God's righteousness requires the judgment of all sin. Only those people who agree with God and are willing to allow themselves to be changed into sinless beings can enter into heaven.

[Birdie]

What I mostly mean of God being angry is when God was talking to Moses about what to do when a person breaks the law, like everything you do wrong is death. And it doesn't say, just let God handle it, it says “The people of the land shall stone him with stones”. And then if you don't stone him, God will turn against you and your whole family, MUHAHAHA! That's in Leviticus 20. But what I mean for the idea of the Old Testament being like a myth is because of all the miracles and such. Like in the New Testament most of the miracles focused around one guy, (Jesus duh ), but in the Old Testament everything seems scattered. It's like all of the older prophets could be Jesus if they claimed it when they're making the sea split apart or being taken up into the heavens in a fiery chariot. So is there any facts to make the Old Testament seem more logical?

[Canuckster1127]

What I mostly mean of God being angry is when God was talking to Moses about what to do when a person breaks the law, like everything you do wrong is death. And it doesn't say, just let God handle it, it says “The people of the land shall stone him with stones”. And then if you don't stone him, God will turn against you and your whole family, MUHAHAHA! That's in Leviticus 20. But what I mean for the idea of the Old Testament being like a myth is because of all the miracles and such. Like in the New Testament most of the miracles focused around one guy, (Jesus duh ), but in the Old Testament everything seems scattered. It's like all of the older prophets could be Jesus if they claimed it when they're making the sea split apart or being taken up into the heavens in a fiery chariot. So is there any facts to make the Old Testament seem more logical?

Logic is not the measure of truth. Logic is a tool that helps to show whether something is internally consistent. Just because something is "Logical" doesn't make it true.

Logic is only as true as the premises that you base it upon.

So, if as an Atheist, you approach the Old Testament or the New Testament for that manner, and presume that miracles are not possible, then it will not make sense to you no matter what I or anyone says.

If God exists, then He is the one who has established natural laws. As such he can choose to suspend them or to supercede them. Based upon the presuppositions applied by Christians in terms of the power and person of God, both the NT and OT in this regard are perfectly logical.

What makes it logical or not, are the presuppositions you begin with. What makes it true of not is simply the truth of those presuppositions.

[Gman]

What I mostly mean of God being angry is when God was talking to Moses about what to do when a person breaks the law, like everything you do wrong is death.

Birdie, that maybe true however most of the Jewish people didn't actually see themselves as fulfilling all these leviticul laws. In fact they viewed these laws as curses... They looked at the law as a kind of magnifying glass used to point out sin in their lives. In other words, when they looked at the laws they realized that no one could really obey them all and so they reguarded these laws as curses. So that is where Christ had to come in and take the penalty (or punishment) for us.

In other words, God knew we as people could not fulfill these laws, and should be put to death, (rightfully so). So in order to correct the problem, he sent Christ to take that punishment for us... So once again we would be clean again in God's eyes... If we say that we really do fulfill all these laws, then what we are really doing is playing God..

Is that any clearer?

G -

[Gman]

Actually maybe I can make it a bit more clearer... If any of these laws were truely carried out to the fullest, even the person doing the execution would be killed... Because NO ONE stands justified against the law accept for Christ.. That, I believe, was the point God was making here with all these laws and death as the consequence... That is why we need Christ so much.

You are really looking at the heart of the Gospel now.. Know what I mean now?

G -

[Birdie]

Actually maybe I can make it a bit more clearer... If any of these laws were truely carried out to the fullest, even the person doing the execution would be killed... Because NO ONE stands justified against the law accept for Christ.. That, I believe, was the point God was making here with all these laws... That is why we need Christ so much.

You are really looking at the heart of the Gospel now.. Know what I mean now?

G -

So before Christ everyone tried to stone each other? Well actually I think some did, lol...

And also where did the people go before Christ when they die? Didn't Jesus say in one of his sermons about this dude who died and this other dude who died and one was a rich guy and one was a poor guy and the poor guy starved because the rich guy didn't give him anything to drink or eat. And then the story ends with the poor guy up in heaven and the rich dude down in hell and the rich dude was all 'Oh it's so hot in here give me something to drink' and then the poor dude just goes away up in heaven, Lol. Anyway, wasn't there a heaven before Jesus, or I think it's called a 'Paradise'. So how are you suppose to get there?

Logic is not the measure of truth. Logic is a tool that helps to show whether something is internally consistent. Just because something is "Logical" doesn't make it true.

Logic is only as true as the premises that you base it upon.

So, if as an Atheist, you approach the Old Testament or the New Testament for that manner, and presume that miracles are not possible, then it will not make sense to you no matter what I or anyone says.

If God exists, then He is the one who has established natural laws. As such he can choose to suspend them or to supercede them. Based upon the presuppositions applied by Christians in terms of the power and person of God, both the NT and OT in this regard are perfectly logical.

What makes it logical or not, are the presuppositions you begin with. What makes it true of not is simply the truth of those presuppositions.

Ok so, logic isn't faith; God made logic, so he can bend logic to have miracles happen. And yes if I do believe miracles from God happens, yes it would seem logical. Like if I believed in talking bears Goldelocks and the 3 bears would seem logical.

And yes, just because something is logical doesn't make it true, but wouldn't it more than likely for something logical to be true than something not logical? And are you saying to believe the Old Testament you have to believe in God? And then to understand God you have to read the Bible, and understanding God you believe in him right? But it seems you're saying you have to believe in God before you read the Bible… or just be raised Christian so that you heard the stories so many times that you just believe them anyway.

Err so yeah…. Is there a chance that some of the stories in the Old Testament may be exaggerated a teeny bit? I mean it WAS written by humans, right?

[Canuckster1127]

Actually maybe I can make it a bit more clearer... If any of these laws were truely carried out to the fullest, even the person doing the execution would be killed... Because NO ONE stands justified against the law accept for Christ.. That, I believe, was the point God was making here with all these laws... That is why we need Christ so much.

You are really looking at the heart of the Gospel now.. Know what I mean now?

G -

So before Christ everyone tried to stone each other? Well actually I think some did, lol...

And also where did the people go before Christ when they die? Didn't Jesus say in one of his sermons about this dude who died and this other dude who died and one was a rich guy and one was a poor guy and the poor guy starved because the rich guy didn't give him anything to drink or eat. And then the story ends with the poor guy up in heaven and the rich dude down in hell and the rich dude was all 'Oh it's so hot in here give me something to drink' and then the poor dude just goes away up in heaven, Lol. Anyway, wasn't there a heaven before Jesus, or I think it's called a 'Paradise'. So how are you suppose to get there?

Logic is not the measure of truth. Logic is a tool that helps to show whether something is internally consistent. Just because something is "Logical" doesn't make it true.

Logic is only as true as the premises that you base it upon.

So, if as an Atheist, you approach the Old Testament or the New Testament for that manner, and presume that miracles are not possible, then it will not make sense to you no matter what I or anyone says.

If God exists, then He is the one who has established natural laws. As such he can choose to suspend them or to supercede them. Based upon the presuppositions applied by Christians in terms of the power and person of God, both the NT and OT in this regard are perfectly logical.

What makes it logical or not, are the presuppositions you begin with. What makes it true of not is simply the truth of those presuppositions.

Ok so, logic isn't faith; God made logic, so he can bend logic to have miracles happen. And yes if I do believe miracles from God happens, yes it would seem logical. Like if I believed in talking bears Goldelocks and the 3 bears would seem logical.

And yes, just because something is logical doesn't make it true, but wouldn't it more than likely for something logical to be true than something not logical? And are you saying to believe the Old Testament you have to believe in God? And then to understand God you have to read the Bible, and understanding God you believe in him right? But it seems you're saying you have to believe in God before you read the Bible… or just be raised Christian so that you heard the stories so many times that you just believe them anyway.

Err so yeah…. Is there a chance that some of the stories in the Old Testament may be exaggerated a teeny bit? I mean it WAS written by humans, right?

Birdie,

Repeating your doubts is not debate. You asked for an explanation. You've been given one.

As you note faith is not logic and logic is not faith.

No, just because something is logical doesn't make it more likely to be true. The only thing that matters in this regard is the truth of the premises upon which the logic rests. It isn't a matter of odds or statistics. It simply is or isn't true. That's it.

Are you here to discuss things in this regard or are we going to be treated to continual reassertion of your doubts regardless of what anyone says?

Bart

[Birdie]

No, just because something is logical doesn't make it more likely to be true. The only thing that matters in this regard is the truth of the premises upon which the logic rests. It isn't a matter of odds or statistics. It simply is or isn't true. That's it.

So in other words, no one exaggerated anything in the Bible, or the Old Testament stories, and it is what it says. Or you just saying that if any of the human writers tried to exaggerated the truth the story probably wouldn't go though editing (God) .

[Gman]

So before Christ everyone tried to stone each other? Well actually I think some did, lol...

Some did... true. Do you agree that we should have a police force today? Why do we need them?

And also where did the people go before Christ when they die? Didn't Jesus say in one of his sermons about this dude who died and this other dude who died and one was a rich guy and one was a poor guy and the poor guy starved because the rich guy didn't give him anything to drink or eat. And then the story ends with the poor guy up in heaven and the rich dude down in hell and the rich dude was all 'Oh it's so hot in here give me something to drink' and then the poor dude just goes away up in heaven, Lol.

In heaven like everyone else... Also where did you get this story from? It sounds like an Alfred Hitchcock story...

G -

[Canuckster1127]

No, just because something is logical doesn't make it more likely to be true. The only thing that matters in this regard is the truth of the premises upon which the logic rests. It isn't a matter of odds or statistics. It simply is or isn't true. That's it.

So in other words, no one exaggerated anything in the Bible, or the Old Testament stories, and it is what it says. Or you just saying that if any of the human writers tried to exaggerated the truth the story probably wouldn't go though editing (God) .

No. There are exagerations or hyperbole in some portions of scripture where it is used as a literary device to make a particularly strong point. The standard example for this would be in the Sermon of the Mount in Matt 5:29-30 where Christ makes the statement:


29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.

30 If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.

Christ here is using exageration or hyperbole to make a very strong statement that needs to be examined in the context of the entire passage. There are those through Church History who have taken this literally and engaged in self-mutilation based upon their applying a "literal" hermeneutic. "Literal" does not always mean taking the simplest reading of a passage and accepting that as the meaning of the text. Especially when you are reading that passage in English and bringing to the reading of that text your own culture, experience and presuppositions.

Now, often the simplest rendering of the text IS indeed the meaning and the translators have done a good job. The point is, that care needs to be exercised to examine Scripture thoroughly, carefully and thoughtfully to take into consideration the original language, the culture of the original audience and such unique things as idioms and colloquialisms.

So back to your comments, the use of exageration is not a common literary device in the Old Testament when it comes to Historical writings. The use of metaphores is perhaps common where an eyewitness described what he is seeing and describes it in terms of what he knows and is familiar with, like Moses describing the burning bush. THat is what it looked like to him and how he could best describe it, but it would be reading in the text to say it was a real burning bush in the sense that any of us would look at it.

Obviously poetry, such as in Psalms, is a different form of writing and you would need to take into consideration the difference in form and would approach understanding passages there a little differently than you would the history of Chronicles, for example.

The concept of plenary inspiration does include recognition that God did not supress the personality, experience and writing style of the writer of Scripture. It does recognize as well, the inspiration of Scripture by the Holy Spirit which did in fact keep it from error in the original documents.

We don't have those documents so there are some textual issues that have arisen and require careful study and examination in order to determine what the original stated. Thankfully, in most instances these are fairly easy to examine and there is consensus among many, even from different points of view, as to what that original was.

Now Birdie, I've just given you a pretty thorough and I hope thoughtful answer.

If you are here to interact as an honest, open minded seeker, then I would appreciate the same from you.

Frankly, it's becoming evident to me in examining your interaction, that you are here moreso, to simply argue, present your doubts and mock what you've already rejected.

I hope I'm wrong. You'll have to show me otherwise however.

Please take a look at the discussion guidelines above. If you're not here to interact with some level of open-mindedness and respect, then there are other boards that provide for debate of the nature you are apparently looking to find. This is a Christian Apologetics site committed to being a place for Christians to discuss apologetics, reconciliation with scientific issues, and also for honest seekers to interact with questions they may have.

I'm hearing your questions. I'm not seeing a lot of interaction that leads me to believe that is your purpose here, but as I've said, you can show me otherwise. Mocking and ridicule of Scripture doesn't impress me all that much as honest seeking.

[Birdie]

Some did... true. Do you agree that we should have a police force today? Why do we need them?


In heaven like everyone else... Also where did you get this story from? It sounds like an Alfred Hitchcock story...

G -

The story from Luke 16:19. And yes I agree we should have police, but they shouldn't try and shot everyone who is gay or had an affair with someone. And we need them because they help protect people from other people who want to hurt other people, like bank robbers or drunk driving people. Also I just remembered didn't Jesus stop some woman from being stoned by other people because she was an adulteress? That's in John 8. And Jesus says that you could stone her if you don't have sin, and since they all sinned they couldn't and left. He was kind of saying God is the only one without sin let God deal with her. Of course if there's a guy shooting up some place and the police stand back and say let God deal with em, they would probably be fired.

[Gman]

The story from Luke 16:19.

Yes, what these verses are saying here, at least to me, is that there will be a time in the future when the choices that we have made in our lives will be irrevokable. In other words sealed... The chasm in verse 26 was not built by God, but was built by the rich man, which prevented God from getting closer to him. The rich man put himself in hell and God had to honor that decision. I don't think this is a laughing matter at all but a warning... Let's be careful here please...

And yes I agree we should have police, but they shouldn't try and shot everyone who is gay or had an affair with someone. And we need them because they help protect people from other people who want to hurt other people, like bank robbers or drunk driving people.

Since God is pure love, it cannot have even a grain of sin around it. Sexual acts are for pleasure, but when used immorally or unnaturally it can produce mental, spiritual, and physical death to a person, (not by God, but to the person doing it to themselves..). There are no grey areas here. Since it can kill people, then it must be stopped just like the bank robbers that rob others for pleasure as well. Now I'm not avocating that people that pratice this type of immorality should be killed, ok? Because if we were to look at the law, we all too should probably be killed as well. It's only in Christ that you are right in God's eye's and not by yourself only. And as a warning, Christ says be very very careful when you judge someone...

Matt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Are you getting the point yet? Please read more about this here: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/sexuality.html

Also I just remembered didn't Jesus stop some woman from being stoned by other people because she was an adulteress? That's in John 8. And Jesus says that you could stone her if you don't have sin, and since they all sinned they couldn't and left. He was kind of saying God is the only one without sin let God deal with her. Of course if there's a guy shooting up some place and the police stand back and say let God deal with em, they would probably be fired.

I'm not avocating that Jesus was a pacifist... I quote: "We have a record of Jesus meeting a Roman centurion Matt 8:5-13. An army officer who most likely achieved his rank because he was skilled at battle. After talking with this soldier for a few minutes, Jesus did not tell him to put down his sword, nor did he tell him to retire from the military. Instead, he praised the man's faith, saying that he had more faith than anyone He had met."

Laws are needed and should be upheld, it's just that they are needed to be upheld carefully and with the guidance of God. Not on our own... And if they are used in cases of death, it wouldn't be probably without many many warnings first. In other words... laws are needed to be upheld, but ONLY with the guidance of God since God knows people (and their hearts..) better than we do...

Hope this helps...
G -