God's wrath

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:20 pm

I have a question that my girlfriend asked me and it took me back a little. She wanted to know why, if God poured all His wrath on Christ on the cross, does He once again pour out His wrath on people during the tribulation.

I'm thinking it's His last effort to bring people to repentance...but if this is a time when God withdraws His grace from the lost world then what would be the point? Also, if it is just a righteous act of an omnipotent God demonstrating His wrath to an unbelieving lot...why?...isn't it enough that these people are going to spend eternity in hell? I think they will get the message there.

Any thoughts?

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:41 pm

I would say that you are broadly right. Christ bore the penalty for sin so far as man's ability to be saved is concerned. Outside of the work of the Cross, there is no hope of salvation. However, in Christ, the world was reconciled to God.

So, God will pour out wrath in the last days just as He does today with reference to sin. Ultimately, I believe the purpose of the tribulation is to bring Israel to repentance. But God has always judged sin in this life in an experiential sense. Temporal judgement is different from eternal judgement. The latter of these was taken care of by Christ. The former is taken care of via repentance.

By way of illustration, imagine a man gets a speeding ticket. He is required by law to make absolution for that. Once he does, he is justified, and the problem is taken out of the way. On the other hand, imagine if your son gets a speeding ticket. His justification before the court has nothing to do with the fact that you will ground him for breaking what the law. His fellowship with you is broken, regardless of the state of his guilt before the court. I hope that makes sense . . . it's kind of late, haha.

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:03 am

Jac3510 wrote:I would say that you are broadly right. Christ bore the penalty for sin so far as man's ability to be saved is concerned. Outside of the work of the Cross, there is no hope of salvation. However, in Christ, the world was reconciled to God.

So, God will pour out wrath in the last days just as He does today with reference to sin. Ultimately, I believe the purpose of the tribulation is to bring Israel to repentance. But God has always judged sin in this life in an experiential sense. Temporal judgement is different from eternal judgement. The latter of these was taken care of by Christ. The former is taken care of via repentance.

By way of illustration, imagine a man gets a speeding ticket. He is required by law to make absolution for that. Once he does, he is justified, and the problem is taken out of the way. On the other hand, imagine if your son gets a speeding ticket. His justification before the court has nothing to do with the fact that you will ground him for breaking what the law. His fellowship with you is broken, regardless of the state of his guilt before the court. I hope that makes sense . . . it's kind of late, haha.

Perfect sense! I was trying to convey that to her but couldn't find the right words. Thank you.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:13 am

I have a question?

How does God bring Israel to repentance without the Holy Spirit being on earth? (Just one of a long list of contradictions I see in Dispensationalism. More to come).

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:17 am

puritan lad wrote:I have a question?

How does God bring Israel to repentance without the Holy Spirit being on earth? (Just one of a long list of contradictions I see in Dispensationalism. More to come).

Maybe those Israelites aren't calvinists!

(sorry ..... couldn't resist)

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:27 am

puritan lad wrote:I have a question?

How does God bring Israel to repentance without the Holy Spirit being on earth? (Just one of a long list of contradictions I see in Dispensationalism. More to come).

Was the Holy Spirit on earth in the OT days, and in what regard was it? Obviously, people repented back then . . .

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:45 am

Jac3510 wrote:
puritan lad wrote:I have a question?

How does God bring Israel to repentance without the Holy Spirit being on earth? (Just one of a long list of contradictions I see in Dispensationalism. More to come).
Was the Holy Spirit on earth in the OT days, and in what regard was it? Obviously, people repented back then . . .

Yes, and isn't the purpose of the 144,000 (Jews) to preach God's message during this time? Kind of the like the Children of Israel were to be representatives of God to the other nations back in the OT?

God certainly does seem to take an Old Testament approach during the Tribulation...what with the boils and hail and water turning to blood.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:52 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:
puritan lad wrote:I have a question?

How does God bring Israel to repentance without the Holy Spirit being on earth? (Just one of a long list of contradictions I see in Dispensationalism. More to come).
Maybe those Israelites aren't calvinists!

(sorry ..... couldn't resist)

Yes. They have Libertarian "free will", yet somehow the 144,000 are assured of their salvation, even sealed by God Himself. Go figure.

I couldn't resist either

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:55 pm

puritan lad wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:
puritan lad wrote:I have a question?

How does God bring Israel to repentance without the Holy Spirit being on earth? (Just one of a long list of contradictions I see in Dispensationalism. More to come).
Maybe those Israelites aren't calvinists!

(sorry ..... couldn't resist)
Yes. They have Libertarian "free will", yet somehow the 144,000 are assured of their salvation, even sealed by God Himself. Go figure.

I couldn't resist either

Touche!

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:04 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:
puritan lad wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:
puritan lad wrote:I have a question?

How does God bring Israel to repentance without the Holy Spirit being on earth? (Just one of a long list of contradictions I see in Dispensationalism. More to come).
Maybe those Israelites aren't calvinists!

(sorry ..... couldn't resist)
Yes. They have Libertarian "free will", yet somehow the 144,000 are assured of their salvation, even sealed by God Himself. Go figure.

I couldn't resist either
Touche!

It's a good thing that I am a Preterist. Otherwise, it would be very tempting to use the other "P" word regarding these 144,000.

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:07 pm

puritan lad wrote: It's a good thing that I am a Preterist. Otherwise, it would be very tempting to use the other "P" word regarding these 144,000.

Puritans? You're saying those Israelites were Puritans!

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:10 pm

Nope. It isn't puritan, preterist, or postmillennial. Try again.

Hint: It isn't very well liked by Arminians. In fact, it is to be avoided at all costs.

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:12 pm

puritan lad wrote:Nope. It isn't puritan, preterist, or postmillennial. Try again.

Hint: It isn't very well liked by Arminians. In fact, it is to be avoided at all costs.

Sorry .... I guess I'm just not predestined to know the answer to that one .....

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:17 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:
puritan lad wrote:Nope. It isn't puritan, preterist, or postmillennial. Try again.

Hint: It isn't very well liked by Arminians. In fact, it is to be avoided at all costs.
Sorry .... I guess I'm just not predestined to know the answer to that one .....

Bad Bart. You should know better than to use that kind of language

Swamper · Post by **Swamper** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:23 pm

P word...Palestinian?