Ephesians 1:4

[Vash]

Ephesians 1:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

Question: Since God chooses who is saved, why doesn't He save everyone?

[Canuckster1127]

Vash!

Good to see you back. I've been praying for you and wondering how you were doing.

This is an excellent question.

Here's an article from our main board that addresses a great deal of what I think you are asking. Keep in mind, that this is an area of debate even among very committed Christians. There is some degree of "mystery" surrounding the nature and character of God and there are elements that frankly, we as finite created people, may be unable to completely understand about an infinite, Holy God.

Nevertheless, it is a question that demands a thoughtful answer and I think the article below will help in that direction.

Let me know what you think and what questions you have.

It's good to see you back.

Bart

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/destined.html

Why Would God Create a Person Who Would be Destined for Hell?
by Rich Deem

Introduction Christianity claims that God knows everything. The theological term is "omniscience." There are some implications of this doctrine that non-believers find troubling or even unacceptable to the concept of a loving God. If God knows everything, then He knows that some people whom He creates will end up in hell. Why would God create people who are destined for hell? It turns out that there are many unstated assumptions in this question, which are not valid for Christianity. A related question, "Why wouldn't God just create everyone to enjoy the glory of heaven?" will also be answered.

Destined for hell ≠ Predestined for hell The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. You can prove this to yourself. Determine two possible courses of action. They don't have to be big decisions, just any two possible actions. Assign each action to either "heads" or "tails." Flip the coin and do what whatever course chance decided. You can do this as many times as needed to determine that you do, indeed, have free will. Occasionally, do the opposite of what the coins tell you. Has God prevented you from doing anything? No!

God alone created you The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?

People destined for hell have no earthly purpose The third incorrect assumption is that a person destined for hell has no purpose in this life. This is also false. All people living have a purpose. Some people destined for hell will save other's lives, either intentionally or unintentionally. Others destined for hell will be helped, encouraged, and witnessed to by others who are destined for heaven. Those who follow God's plan are provided opportunities to help others in their spiritual path. If all people were on the same spiritual path, there would be nobody for God's people to help. God says that all are without excuse, so He provides witnesses of his plan to give them a chance to change their minds.

Rewards and punishment Another possible assumption is that the only purpose of this life is to choose to follow God or reject Him. This is also false. This life is used as a measure of reward and punishment. All who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will go to heaven, but the amount of reward in heaven will be directly related to how closely one followed God's will in his life. Likewise, all those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell and will be punished to the degree of how much evil they committed in their life. This is why God allows people to make their own choices.

Why wouldn't God just create everyone to enjoy the glory of heaven? Skeptics might claim that God, in knowing all the choices a person would make, would not need to create all the people who would end up in hell. This question also has some underlying assumptions. The assumption is that since God knows all the answers, He would have no need of "running the experiment."

Just put the good people directly into heaven? The assumption that God could just put the good people directly into heaven seems to be valid for God, but has some problems when applied to humans. For some reason, skeptics leave themselves out of the equation. They want God to run the thought experiment and put those souls who would make the right choice (believe in Jesus Christ) directly into heaven and not even create those who reject Him. The problem is that God would then be liable to the accusation of rewarding some people more than others, since reward is proportional to good deeds done in life. Since there was no real life, how could God hand out rewards? Should He tell people what they would have done and let them be content with that? How would those souls know anything about life, goodness, and doing the right thing if they had never lived before? God could be considered to be unjust, since His actions would not be based upon choices made by real characters. Would God just put those fake memories into their heads? If He did so, God would be creating deceptions, which contradicts His perfect character.

When people think deeply about their "perfect" plan about what God "should have done," they realize that there are logical problems. What most people would create, as god, would be robots, since they would have no choice at all. Ever try loving your computer? It is not a very satisfying relationship. So it would be with the robots that skeptics would send directly into heaven.

Conclusion The "problems" about the loving God of Christianity posed by the skeptics rests on invalid assumptions. Based on an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, they seek to avoid the consequences of their free will choice by offering a "solution" that violates the character of God. Therefore, the "solution" would not be a valid solution for the God of Christianity.

[Kerux]

God alone created you. The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?

Psalm 139:

13 For you created my inmost being;

you knit me together in my mother's womb. [not our mother or our father]

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. [we are God's work, not our mother or father's].

15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made [by God] in the secret place. When I was woven together [by God] in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me [by God] were written in your book before one of them came to be.

God created us and knit us together. We are His work.

[Canuckster1127]

God alone created you. The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?

Psalm 139:

13 For you created my inmost being;

you knit me together in my mother's womb. [not our mother or our father]

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. [we are God's work, not our mother or father's].

15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made [by God] in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

God created us, knit us together and we are His work.

Thanks Kerux.

I've thought of that passage in this context as well.

[Vash]

Thank you very much for the prayers, Canuckster. I know I'm coming and going a lot. I recently got a leadership role for a volunteer group for my Church. My Church is having these small community-volunteer groups and one of them is a group that helps at the local TV station, and since I've been volunteering there for a few years now anyway, they chose me as a leader. So I've been busy with that, among other things.

As for the topic, thanks for that article. It's very helpful.

[Kerux]

You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability.

Really? Do slaves have "absolute free will?"

Do dead things?

Romans 5

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Do the powerless have a choice?


Romans 5:

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

If death reigned, even over those who did not sin by breaking a commandment, how do those who did sin under the reign of death have a choice other than death and sin?

[Canuckster1127]

Thank you very much for the prayers, Canuckster. I know I'm coming and going a lot. I recently got a leadership role for a volunteer group for my Church. My Church is having these small community-volunteer groups and one of them is a group that helps at the local TV station, and since I've been volunteering there for a few years now anyway, they chose me as a leader. So I've been busy with that, among other things.

As for the topic, thanks for that article. It's very helpful.

Glad to hear it.

What kind of work are you doing with the station?

Bart

[Canuckster1127]

You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability.

Really? Do slaves have "absolute free will?"

Do dead things?

Romans 5

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Do the powerless have a choice?


Romans 5:

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

If death reigned, even over those who did not sin by breaking a commandment, how do those who did sin under the reign of death have a choice other than death and sin?

Kerux,

Feel free to examine the threads between Puritan Lad and B.W.

They go into a great deal of detail and the difference I referred to earlier in terms of beliefs among Christians.

If you wish to shed further light on the issue, that would be a good place to do so.

Bart

[Vash]

Thank you very much for the prayers, Canuckster. I know I'm coming and going a lot. I recently got a leadership role for a volunteer group for my Church. My Church is having these small community-volunteer groups and one of them is a group that helps at the local TV station, and since I've been volunteering there for a few years now anyway, they chose me as a leader. So I've been busy with that, among other things.

As for the topic, thanks for that article. It's very helpful.

Glad to hear it.

What kind of work are you doing with the station?

Bart

All sorts of stuff. I edit spelling/grammar on any sort of graphic that they may use, I'm a floor directer for some shows, I time-out the segments of the shows, I help rearrange the set for different shows, I'm a cameraman, and now I'm learning more about audio. It's fun.

[Canuckster1127]

Thank you very much for the prayers, Canuckster. I know I'm coming and going a lot. I recently got a leadership role for a volunteer group for my Church. My Church is having these small community-volunteer groups and one of them is a group that helps at the local TV station, and since I've been volunteering there for a few years now anyway, they chose me as a leader. So I've been busy with that, among other things.

As for the topic, thanks for that article. It's very helpful.

Glad to hear it.

What kind of work are you doing with the station?

Bart

All sorts of stuff. I edit spelling/grammar on any sort of graphic that they may use, I'm a floor directer for some shows, I time-out the segments of the shows, I help rearrange the set for different shows, I'm a cameraman, and now I'm learning more about audio. It's fun.

Wow. Sounds like a lot of fun!

Glad you're enjoying it.