Puritan Lad's Response

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:21 am

While you are at it, please explain where faith comes from? If it is our own creation with the assistance of the almighty "free-will", then why do we need to be born again? If we are born with it, how come not all have it? If it is a gift of God alone (as the Bible states), then how do we obtain it, without teaching "salvation by works"?

PL, faith is not the gift, grace is.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:44 am

FFC wrote:
While you are at it, please explain where faith comes from? If it is our own creation with the assistance of the almighty "free-will", then why do we need to be born again? If we are born with it, how come not all have it? If it is a gift of God alone (as the Bible states), then how do we obtain it, without teaching "salvation by works"?
PL, faith is not the gift, grace is.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sorry FFC,

An Arminian must deny that faith itself is a gift from God. Instead, he must believe that faith is either an inherent quality of certain men that God did not grant (for if God grants it, then it cannot be of “free-will”), or that faith can be self produced without the working of the Holy Spirit. However, each position stands in opposition to the Word of God.

Faith is “not of ourselves, it is a gift from God” (Eph. 2:8). Faith is “by Him” (Acts 3:16). Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:9). Faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22), standing in stark contrast to the works of the flesh which are evident (Gal. 5:19-21). Faith is “from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Eph. 6:23), as Jesus Himself is the “author and finisher of our faith” (Heb. 12:2). Faith is “obtained … by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”. (2 Peter 1:1). Faith comes by “hearing…the Word of God (Romans 10:17), which only the sheep can do (John 10:26-28). Not all have faith (2 Thess. 3:2).

For those who “were appointed to eternal life” (Acts 13:48), it can rightly be said that “it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should … believe in him”. (Phil. 1:29) It must be so, for “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights…”(James 1:17). “For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?” (1 Cor. 4:7). "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65).

Obviously, this is a big problem for Arminianism. Even if it is granted that God elects based on a "foreknowledge of faith" (which the Bible does not say), faith itself comes from God. Therefore, even the Arminian God elects based on the foreknowledge of a gift that He alone imparts to man, thus eliminating the idol of "Free-will" and his goddess "Contingency" from the equation. If anyone would disagree with this, then I ask you, where does faith in God come from?

PL

B. W. · Post by **B. W.** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:27 pm

+
+
Now I'll sum this up again but I will warn you that this may offend those of Reformed vision and will challenge it with the hopes that the Reformed crowd may wake up and really reform their doctrine:

You have been warned...

Introduction — Review:

In all honesty, how can anyone ever be assured of their salvation as it is written, “Not of him the runs and wills but only God show mercy and that God has mercy and compassion on only whom he wills and hardens whom he wills?” Romans 9:15-16 As taught by those of the reformed tradition.

You cannot trust what you read in the bible as that involves human will to interpret the bible. You cannot say, “I am saved because God made me feel wretched or even that God illuminated that I was elected through the scripture,” as that involves human will to feel and understand that one is saved.

According to Reformed Theology, human choice is a work that deifies man, then how can anyone be assured they have been elected? Man is totally and absolutely a passive agent because God has mercy and compassion on only whom he wills and hardens whom he wills.

The best you can do is just hope that you are the elect. There would be no way to confirm you were of the elect as all such confirmations involve human agency's will. Any such confirmation deifies human will and thus cannot be trusted.

Since Jesus work on the cross is limited only to the elect, the elect have no way to know if they are really saved. They cannot rely on any human agency. If One says they rely on God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit to save — then that very act of reliance is still part of human self will and therefore of human effort.

If God forces grace upon someone, that very sense of grace being forced upon someone is still part of human agency of running and willing. Likewise any feelings, perceptions, thoughts confirming ones salvation cannot be trusted as the human heart is desperately wicked and deceitful. Also, the very act of reading the bible, hearing preaching, the ability to understand is all part of the human will and cannot be trusted.

Therefore, those of you entrenched in Reformed Ideology, how do you know you are really saved and are part of God's elect?

Response:

If God made a choice possible what then - Is that a work of God or man? If God made a choice possible to humanity — it remains a work of God. Without an offer, no mercy could be proved, no compassion displayed, and only hardening can remain as mankind's ultimate destiny.

If God being God knows everything then He knows before hand what one will do with his offer. This does not deify mankind as reformed doctrine expostulates because some human beings were foreseen to respond positively and some negatively to God's offer.

Salvation is not based on what humanity does. It is based solely on what God does: He offers and grants all human beings a choice. Without doing so, none could be assured of salvation and become his 'called out ones.'

This is what the bible teaches. If you are willing and obedient you will eat of the good of the land. But is you refuse and rebel you will be destroyed, Isaiah 1:19-20. There is a choice.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28, “Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.” KJV

This again shows that God does offer a choice.

Deuteronomy 32:3-5, “because I will proclaim the name of Jehovah and ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He. They have corrupted themselves; they are not His sons; it is their blemish; they are a crooked and perverse generation.” KJV

Hmmm, people corrupt themselves and cause wickedness and sin. In Deuteronomy 32:1-43 prophetic time line concerning the ancient Israelites gives examples of how God handles the rebellious, how he takes vengeance and punishes the wicked, why he brings calamity, reveals recompense's reality, and how God will restore. Verse 43 is profound and lines up with Romans 11:1-36.

From this we learn that God establishes the life course of people based on what verse 3-5 state: that God does a perfect work, his way are just, God is without evil, God is upright, fair, God is faithful, and that human beings alone corrupt themselves — not God. As the example proves, God offered them a choice in Deuteronomy 11:26-28. If they refuse God's offer, their mode of life is sealed, hardened, justly. If they accept God's offer, they are sealed and find true life.

People corrupt themselves. This corruption is not due to God making, predestining, people to be rebellious so he can punish. It is as God reveals in Deuteronomy 3:5, “they have corrupted themselves.”

God offers a choice. Remain rebellious and die or return to the Lord and live. No one can deliver you from God's hand except God himself, John 10:27-29.That deliverance is God's choice to you and me to choose this day who we will serve, Joshua 24:15.

God offers choice. Joshua 24:20 demonstrates this as does Isaiah 56:4, Isaiah 65:12, Psalms 7:9-10, Psalms 9:10. Psalms 9:15-16, Psalms 11:4-7, Psalms 18:25-27, Psalms 103:1-22, Psalms 145:17-20. These scriptures reveal various forms of choices that God grants mankind. Proverbs 2:20-22 demonstrate choice: now, what will yours be?

How God shows mercy and compassion in recorded in Psalms 107:1-43; he engages humanity with a choice. Proverbs 3:5-8, how can one depart from evil if not offered God's choice, his terms?

Truly Proverbs 5:21-23 is true — man's own sins entrap him. God foreknows and can establish a sinner's destiny because he foreknows the outcome before time began.

God foreknows everything as Psalms 1:6, Job 34:21-33, Psalms 139:1-24 point out. From this God can shape and mold as he offered a choice. Without it this offer, none could be made righteous before God. Without God offering his mercy, you could not accept it. This remains a work of God and not mans. God establishes our ways.

In Conclusion:

If Reformed doctrine is correct, you cannot choose, salvation would remain unknown as all human agency is corrupt. God damns to hell who he likes and saves who he likes just because he can. Jesus came to save the elect but the elect could never be able to trust any human agency of will because it is needed to interpret if one is saved or not.

All human hearing, seeing, understanding of the bible cannot be trusted either, as that is a work of evil human self will. Therefore, according to where reform theology ultimately leads no one can ever truly know they are saved or not until judgment day no matter what a Reformed PHD writes or says on this matter. That is its ultimate destination and those that defend it cannot be sure they have really been saved.

However, God does indeed offer a choice. This the bible proclaims and so should we. There is a great commission. We who are saved are the body of Christ and are instruments of his will. Just because God came to save the whole world does not mean all the world of man will be saved. Such Reformed doctrinal arguments regarding this specific matter are sanctimonious, arbitrary, and moot. God offers a choice and demands a response, period. It is that simple.

His mercy will take humanity on a roller coaster ride to shake them up so humanity can decide who really exercises true mercy: They? The Devil? Or God? Yes God does indeed show mercy on whom he wills and the manner he does so is forgotten by many. God wills that none perish and all come to repentance but he also knows many will remain lost due to their own volition and hardens based on his foreknowing their rejection of his call. That call, without it, none could ever be saved.

Deuteronomy 32:3-5, “because I will proclaim the name of Jehovah and ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He. They have corrupted themselves; they are not His sons; it is their blemish; they are a crooked and perverse generation.” KJV

Yes, God has mercy on whom he wills and hardens who he will not according to Reformed Doctrine or even Armenian. Psalms 107:1-43 plainly reveals how God shows mercy. Read it with care. God offers a choice and His loving mercy will shake you up so you'll make one, what will be your answer? It is that uncomplicated. Without it, you could never be saved.

Isaiah 48:10, “Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.” KJV

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob were thus chosen, tried, proven — choice was forced upon them by a loving God as God foresaw that is what it would take man to return to him: their own problems, afflictions, woes, sins, temptations, forced upon them a choice as it does so today. This is heavy stuff and proves how God chooses, tries, test, proves, refines and thus selects. Some will refuse God's choice, others will accept it.

Even Jesus bore affliction. Ponder this... Jesus bore affliction...hmmm salvation is real...Praise God! Not a work of man - but God's! Thank him for his offer and thus find rest for your afflicted souls.

God chooses how? Not by Reformed or Armenian doctrine. He calls out to an afflicted world made miserable by human beings seeking their own dominion and offers a choice to humanity to return to him and live or perish in what one sows.

That is an act of love profound to provide this type of freedom — remain as you are or become God's friend learning to shine his light, his image, his nature, his character upon earth. As Christian, we do have purpose and a responsibility. It is time to return to your first love — is it Christ or the World? The choice is before you.
-
-
-

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:50 pm

puritan lad wrote:
FFC wrote:
While you are at it, please explain where faith comes from? If it is our own creation with the assistance of the almighty "free-will", then why do we need to be born again? If we are born with it, how come not all have it? If it is a gift of God alone (as the Bible states), then how do we obtain it, without teaching "salvation by works"?
PL, faith is not the gift, grace is.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sorry FFC,

An Arminian must deny that faith itself is a gift from God. Instead, he must believe that faith is either an inherent quality of certain men that God did not grant (for if God grants it, then it cannot be of “free-will”), or that faith can be self produced without the working of the Holy Spirit. However, each position stands in opposition to the Word of God.

Faith is “not of ourselves, it is a gift from God” (Eph. 2:8). Faith is “by Him” (Acts 3:16). Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:9). Faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22), standing in stark contrast to the works of the flesh which are evident (Gal. 5:19-21). Faith is “from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Eph. 6:23), as Jesus Himself is the “author and finisher of our faith” (Heb. 12:2). Faith is “obtained … by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”. (2 Peter 1:1). Faith comes by “hearing…the Word of God (Romans 10:17), which only the sheep can do (John 10:26-28). Not all have faith (2 Thess. 3:2).

For those who “were appointed to eternal life” (Acts 13:48), it can rightly be said that “it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should … believe in him”. (Phil. 1:29) It must be so, for “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights…”(James 1:17). “For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?” (1 Cor. 4:7). "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65).

Obviously, this is a big problem for Arminianism. Even if it is granted that God elects based on a "foreknowledge of faith" (which the Bible does not say), faith itself comes from God. Therefore, even the Arminian God elects based on the foreknowledge of a gift that He alone imparts to man, thus eliminating the idol of "Free-will" and his goddess "Contingency" from the equation. If anyone would disagree with this, then I ask you, where does faith in God come from?

PL

Those were a lot of good passages. I agree that faith is a gift as every good thing that God has given us is a gift, but in the Ephesians passage it seems pretty clear that The gift indicated is grace unto salvation which gives us eternal life...this comes through faith. Works are in contrast to grace and faith is the vehicle.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:12 pm

PL:

We all know that, in Calvinism, faith is considered to be a gift of God. This is a logical requirement of your belief system, after all, given your understanding of Total Depravity. A very good article refuting the entire concept can be found here:

http://www.scriptureunlocked.com/pdfs/IsFaithaGift.pdf

An audio version - not of the paper itself, but a brief presentation of the ideas found in it - is also available:

http://www.scriptureunlocked.com/audiot ... stered.mp3

As for Ephesias 2, it is very difficult to justify making faith the gift from a grammatical perspective. When we are told "it" is a gift, the word here ("it") is touto. This is a neuter pronoun. Against this, the word "faith" (]i]pistews[/i]) is a feminine noun. The standard rule for pronouns is that they match their antecedant in gender and number. You can't say that "grace" (charati) is the gift on the same grounds, as it is also feminine. The best answer is that it is the concept of salvation that is the gift. If you want to hold your position, you have to argue that salvation - including grace and faith - are all included in the gift. But, once you start getting that technical, you run into a series of problems that are hard to defend against. Obviously, many good exegetes hold your position. But, grammatically, it is not the only viable one, nor is it the best. It is, in the end, a theologically based position.

Acts 3:16 doesn't help, because the phrase he pistis he di' autou is more literally translated "the faith [which is] through him" (see the NKJV, NASB, ESV, HCSB, etc.) This is because dia with the genitive means "through." Even the NASB is a bit misleading here, because the verb "comes" isn't in the Greek. The ESV actually offers the most wooden translation: "the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health." If faith were the gift, Luke would have used the preposition ek or apo, which mean "from" and "out of" respectively.

1 Cor 12:9 does not help, because the context is spiritual gifts. Some are given the gift of faith, and others are given the gifts of healing, etc. So, unless you are going to argue that those who had the gifts of healing (or any other gift), but not the gift of faith, were unsaved, this doesn't help at all.

In Gal. 5:22, faith is presented as the fruit (singular) of the Spirit, along with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, etc. Here, the word "faith" is properly translated "faithfulness," which is precisely why every major translation uses that instead of "faith." I'm sure you can see the difference in the two. The Greek here is pistis rather than pistos . . . "faithfulness" rather than "faith."

In Eph. 6:23 is a benediction. What is from God here is love. This love is with faith, brought about through it. This certainly isn't referring to saving faith as the gift of God. Paul is wishing these people a blessing - love with faith.

Heb 12:2 also needs no appeal to the Greek. However, there is no reason to assume that "author" of our faith means that He gave it to us. The context implies that our faith began with Him and His work. He started the whole thing by His life, death, and resurrection. He is also the perfecter of our faith, just as He Himself is perfect.

2 Pet. 1 is more complicated . . . I refer you to the paper linked above in the interest of time. We can walk through it later if you like.

In Rom. 10:17, faith is by hearing the word of God, but I don't see why that means that God gives us faith? We hear the word of God (the offer of salvation), and we accept it as true.

John 10:26-28 does not say that only the sheep have faith, as if it were given to them at that. It says that the Jews did not believe because they were not of the sheep. They were not of the sheep because they had refused the revelation already given to them, and thus had excluded themselves. No problem there . . .

2 Thess is right in that not all have faith. Atheists and non-believers don't have it. That does not say that those who do have it do so because God chose to grant it to them.

I'm actually preparing a lecture on Acts 13:48. The only way this can grammatically refer to election unto belief is if you believe that before these people were already born, they already had possession of eternal life. That is what the word tetagmenoi means (had been appointed). There is absolutely no way around that. The actual idea is that these people believed and the status of eternal life was being conferred upon them. It's a very grammatical argument, and I'll spare you the details for time and space.

Phil 1:26 is referring to the priviledge of suffering, primarily. To take faith as a gift is overreading the text.

James 1:17 does say that every gift is from God, but you've not established faith to be a gift.

1 Cor 4:7 refers to ministry in general, including the gifts and even salvation. In other words, these people have done nothing on their own, so they have nothing to brag about. This is far cry from saying that they had received faith, and it does not fit the context of the book or the occasion of its composure.

John 6:65 is in the same vain as discussed with the sheep passage.

And I agree that Arminians have a problem, but I don't view election as based on foreknowledge of faith, but in accordance with foreknowledge of position, as I've already explained.

So, no . . . faith is not a gift. Always fun, though

God bless

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:04 am

B.W. and Jac,

While I am preparing detailed responses, I would like for you both to answer my ending question.

Where does faith in God come from?

Thanks,

PL

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:12 am

Faith, as I am discussing with ttoews on the Seven Reasons thread, is nothing more than the act of trust. It is something human beings do on a daily basis. Saving faith is simply relying on God's promises, considering them to be true (in our day, that promise is Jesus' offer of everlasting life).

Where the reformed view get off track is in applying some energy-like quality to "faith." It doesn't help that, in English, the word "faith" is a noun, but the word "belief" is a verb. In Greek (and Hebrew), the noun and verb are same word with different forms - thus, pistos/[/i]pisteuw[/i].

Can humans "believe" things? Yes, they can. Thus, they can "believe" God. That is faith.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:20 am

So to clarify your position, I need to ask...

Do you believe that we are saved by "the act of trust", and that humans, in their natural fallen state, have the ability in and of themselves to do this? Do atheists also have this ability?

When do the Holy Spirit and the New Birth come in? Why are they even necessary?

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:24 am

To clarify, we are saved THROUGH that act of trust and BY God, and all humans - even atheists, have this ability (to trust).

The HS works to convict us of our sin (in our fallen state), showing us to be what we are. It is evident this is true, as even atheists acknowledge their imperfection and how bad they are at times. The new birth/regeneration is the work that God does in the life of the person who has trusted Him for everlasting life.

August · Post by **August** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:05 am

Jac3510 wrote:Faith, as I am discussing with ttoews on the Seven Reasons thread, is nothing more than the act of trust. It is something human beings do on a daily basis. Saving faith is simply relying on God's promises, considering them to be true (in our day, that promise is Jesus' offer of everlasting life).

It is an act? Something that humans do? So it is faith by works?

j/k

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:13 am

August wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:Faith, as I am discussing with ttoews on the Seven Reasons thread, is nothing more than the act of trust. It is something human beings do on a daily basis. Saving faith is simply relying on God's promises, considering them to be true (in our day, that promise is Jesus' offer of everlasting life).
It is an act? Something that humans do? So it is faith by works?

j/k :D

Bingo. That's where I was headed, but wanted to give Jac a chance to clarify. He's choosing words lightly, such as "through" instead of "by".

So we aren't saved "by works", but rather "through works". That's even worse. More to come.

PL

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:22 am

As August added the "J/K", I'm going to assume, PL, that he sees the utter stupidity in that argument. Faith cannot be a work, even if it is something we "do." Why? Because Paul constantly contrasts faith with works. Faith is believing, or relying on, the promise of God. It means that God made a promise, and we trust Him to make good on it. And you think that is a work???

As for the "through" / "by" argument, it's a matter of proper translation. dia with the accusative would be translated "by" (that is, "on the basis of"). On the flip side, dia with the genitive is transalted "through."

Let's take that a step further . . . you say we are save "through works," but my comment was in reference to Acts 3:16, which says we are saved "through faith." And even FURTHER, since you don't make the grammatical distinction between the genitive and accusative cases, what you are saying is that we are saved by our faith. REALLY??? So our faith merits our salvation? Who believes in salvation by works, then? You do . . . so you say that God gives us the faith. So, what you are saying is that God gives us the works t merit our salvation.

I love the theology, PL

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:31 am

It's not enough to feast at the banquet table of God. You must also be spoon-fed lest your reaching to the plate be seen as works based upon your own merits.

(sorry .... couldn't resist ....)

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:34 am

Now I'll sum this up again but I will warn you that this may offend those of Reformed vision and will challenge it with the hopes that the Reformed crowd may wake up and really reform their doctrine:

You have been warned...

OK. I'm buckled up…

Introduction — Review:

In all honesty, how can anyone ever be assured of their salvation as it is written, “Not of him the runs and wills but only God show mercy and that God has mercy and compassion on only whom he wills and hardens whom he wills?” Romans 9:15-16 As taught by those of the reformed tradition.

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."
(1 John 2:3-6)

Should we reject Romans 9:15-16 as canonical? Most Arminians don't really like what it says.

You cannot trust what you read in the bible as that involves human will to interpret the bible. You cannot say, “I am saved because God made me feel wretched or even that God illuminated that I was elected through the scripture,” as that involves human will to feel and understand that one is saved.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
(John 14:26)

According to Reformed Theology, human choice is a work that deifies man, then how can anyone be assured they have been elected? Man is totally and absolutely a passive agent because God has mercy and compassion on only whom he wills and hardens whom he wills.

I've already dealt with this on many occasions. Man is not “passive”. He is wicked and rebellious. There is a huge difference.

The best you can do is just hope that you are the elect. There would be no way to confirm you were of the elect as all such confirmations involve human agency's will. Any such confirmation deifies human will and thus cannot be trusted.

Those who are elect know so. The rest, well, they are doing what they want to do. They are exercising there “free-will”, being slaves to sin and at enmity with God. In short, if you don't know you're saved, you not saved.

Since Jesus work on the cross is limited only to the elect, the elect have no way to know if they are really saved. They cannot rely on any human agency. If One says they rely on God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit to save — then that very act of reliance is still part of human self will and therefore of human effort.

Who says that relying on God is human effort?

By the way, you still haven't dealt with any of my objections.

If God made a choice possible what then - Is that a work of God or man? If God made a choice possible to humanity — it remains a work of God. Without an offer, no mercy could be proved, no compassion displayed, and only hardening can remain as mankind's ultimate destiny.

B.W. You keep repeating the same things over and over again, despite my objections. You believe that Jesus makes salvation a possible choice. The Bible says that Jesus “seeks and saves”. The two are not the same thing. Which is it?

If God being God knows everything then He knows before hand what one will do with his offer. This does not deify mankind as reformed doctrine expostulates because some human beings were foreseen to respond positively and some negatively to God's offer.

Scripture please? God foreknows because He “has declared the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying “My council shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure””. This scripture alone is the death of all “free-will, foreknowledge of choice, contingency, etc.” teaching. Contrary to your belief in a God of ever-changing, contingent decrees, (ie. “God can change His mind”, apparently getting wiser as time goes by), the God of the Bible “predestines” and “works all things to the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11).

Salvation is not based on what humanity does. It is based solely on what God does: He offers and grants all human beings a choice. Without doing so, none could be assured of salvation and become his 'called out ones.'

Which is it B.W.? Is Salvation based solely on what God does, or does He "offer and grant all human beings a choice, (presumely along with the ability to make that choice)"? What you really believe is that "possibility" or "choice" of salvation "is based solely on what God does". If Salvation itself "is based solely on what God does", then human choice is eliminated from the picture.

This is what the bible teaches. If you are willing and obedient you will eat of the good of the land. But is you refuse and rebel you will be destroyed, Isaiah 1:19-20. There is a choice.

Yes, there is a choice. Unfortunately fallen man will always make the wrong choice unless God changes His heart, as I have pointed out many times. See the entire thread.

In Conclusion:

If Reformed doctrine is correct, you cannot choose, salvation would remain unknown as all human agency is corrupt. God damns to hell who he likes and saves who he likes just because he can. Jesus came to save the elect but the elect could never be able to trust any human agency of will because it is needed to interpret if one is saved or not.

Correct, until we are born of the Spirit. Once we are quickened by the Spirit, we can receive the things of the Spirit of God, which natural man cannot do (1 Cor. 2:14).

How can an Arminian be assured of His salvation? I would hate to think that my salvation depended on my will. What if I get a mental disease and go insane? What if I come across a sin that I love so much, I'll run to it and take my medicine in Hell?

All human hearing, seeing, understanding of the bible cannot be trusted either, as that is a work of evil human self will.
No, it is the teaching of the Spirit of God, as I have already pointed out.

God chooses how? Not by Reformed or Armenian doctrine.

It is either one or the other. Either Christ needs our permission to save us, or He quickens whom He will. Why to Arminians continue to deny their Arminianism? You've already defended 4 of the 5 points, and I'll bet you believe that a saved person can be lost as well.

I'm still interested in your replies to post #11 in this thread, where I compared your claims about God and salvation to the Scriptures. It'll be more interesting than me having to answer the same objections over and over again.

Blessings,

PL

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:00 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:It's not enough to feast at the banquet table of God. You must also be spoon-fed lest your reaching to the plate be seen as works based upon your own merits.

(sorry .... couldn't resist ....)

No, but you must at least be made to want the food.