Puritan Lad's Response

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:29 pm

Don't worry. It's coming. (I keep adding to it because I want to address every argument so far. Obviously there is a lot here.) To put is simply, the Bible says much about predestination, and absolutely nothing about "free will".

By the way, I'm still waiting to hear where faith comes from. How does one get it? What is the difference between those who hear the word of God and reject it, and those who hear it and accept it? Wisdom? Righteousness? Ability? I would like to address your answer in my paper as well.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:10 pm

Jac and B.W.

Two more questions that I'm addressing, and would like to get your responses on before I proceed.

1.) Are angels predestined? Do they have free will? (B.W. has already addressed this, but I would like to give him the opportunity to clarify his stance.)

2.) Can we sin in heaven? Will we still have "free will", or we will be "spiritual robots"?

I'll bring up more as I write this...

God Bless,

PL

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:46 pm

puritan lad wrote:Jac and B.W.

Two more questions that I'm addressing, and would like to get your responses on before I proceed.

1.) Are angels predestined? Do they have free will? (B.W. has already addressed this, but I would like to give him the opportunity to clarify his stance.)

2.) Can we sin in heaven? Will we still have "free will", or we will be "spiritual robots"?

I'll bring up more as I write this...

God Bless,

PL

I have one too.

3.) Did God predestine Lucifer and a third of the angels to rebel against Him so that He could cast them out of heaven and prepare a place called hell for them?

YLTYLT · Post by **YLTYLT** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:25 pm

puritan lad wrote:B.W., I hear what you have been saying. The problem is that you are trying to say two opposite things, as you have done so here as well, ie.

God offers the choice in his call.

IT IS GOD'S CALL THAT SAVES

Which is it B.W.? Does God offer the choice, or does He save. If He merely offers the choice and gives us the ability to make that choice, then He doesn't save His people from their sins. He just gives them the ability to do it themselves through their free will. It's one or the other. Salvation, if not a completed work, is not salvation. Either Jesus finished the work and quickens whom He will, or He leaves the finishing of the work to us to decide. How we were created is irrelevant. We are fallen and condemned already. Your theology throws the whole Doctrine of the New Birth out of whack.

You logic is not sound. Just because a choice is offered does not mean the choice in and of itself is the work that saves. I suppose that it COULD be, but you cannot come to that logical conclusion from just that information alone that you presented in that post.

But when you add other information (scripture) you get more a scenario like the following.

for example:
If a Barber advertises free haircuts to anyone, then anyone who goes to see him gets a free haircut, but the haircut is done completely by the barber. The barber did the work, we only saw the advertisement and wondered where did that advertisement come from. Then someone else that got their free haircut said "I got my hair cut from Him and it was great. Its impossible to cut your own hair. Would you like your hair cut by Him as well." So I said "Yes I would like to have a haircut, because I do not have the ability to cut my own hair." But if the barber had not advertised I would have never known that he offered free haircuts. And if someone had not spoke to me and given me their testimony about how great the haircut was I would not have chosen to get a haircut. But even after hearing how great the haircut is, some people either think they do not need a haircut or just think they can cut their own hair.

PL, You quoted a verse earlier from Mat 18:11

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Who are lost, only those that will eventually be saved, or the whole world?

If only some people will be saved, (which I believe we both agree on that part) then from your point of view, since God always does what he tries to do, then the above verse would indacate that only SOME of the people are born lost. (Only the ones that He will or has saved) That would mean that some are not lost and have no need of slavation. But I do not think either of us agree with this statement. Or do you think that some people are born without the need for salvation?

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:04 pm

PL - I'll answer your questions after you answer mine, as we still have, at minimal, this post and this one. I suppose you will be answering them in your larger reply, so I'm waiting.

As for your comments on predestination, if you don't take into account what I've said in what . . . three threads now . . . as it relates to the doctrine, you will be wasting your time. Besides THAT, you still didn't answer the objection raised in the parable I offered. It is the same objection underlying YLT's story as well.

So, you've presented cases - we've presented rebuttals on various levels. You can deal with those rebuttals FIRST before moving on to a new topic, or you can concede the argument. This, of course, for the benefit of the reader who will certainly need to see your answers to perfectly fair questions.

God bless

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:37 am

FFC wrote:I have one too.

3.) Did God predestine Lucifer and a third of the angels to rebel against Him so that He could cast them out of heaven and prepare a place called hell for them?

Yes.

"he does according to his will among the hosts of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isa 45:7)

He "works all things according to the counsel of his will." (Eph. 1:11).

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:23 am

Jac,

My long post is more on the "will" and "human ability" then it is on "faith", although they are certainly related. I haven't seen your threads on predestination, so I'll be glad to look at them if you post the link. However, if you hold to the common "predestination contingent upon the foreknowledge of faith" nonsense, don't bother. In short, there is nothing in the Bible to support this, not to mention the "contingent predestination" is, by definition, not predestination, as I've already pointed out.

I hate to give you too much work, but since you want to limit me to verses of Scripture that I list now in addition to the ones you listed, I'll also throw in...

2 Timothy 1:9
Ephesian 1:4-5, 11
Psalm 33:10-12 "God choses His own Inheritance"
2 Thess. 2:13 "God chose us to be saved through belief, not because of belief".
John 10:26-28 "Why did they not believe?"
John 12:37-40 "Did God really do this?"
Luke 10:21

These pretty much speak for themselves.

I would also throw in John 6:29, where belief in God is defined as a "work".

As far as Eph. 2:8 goes...

Even if I were to grant that the pronoun "this" refers to more of a general idea regard the first part of the verse, there can be no doubt that "faith" is included in the "not of yourselves, it is a gift of God". Otherwise, your interpretation of the verse should read as follows...

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing (except for the faith, that is your own doing); it is the gift of God (even though you deserved it because of your faith), not a result of works, so that no one may boast (although since you were resourceful enough to obtain your own faith, you can go ahead and boast in that)." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Is this really what Paul meant? If you were to paraphrase this verse, rather than translate it, so they the English reader could understand the Greek Grammar, How would you write this verse? How would you remove the object of "faith" from this gift of God? After you have done this, explain why no translator of the Bible. speaking fluent Greek and understanding the grammar, tried to clarify this verse in that way. It is up to you to show that Paul would have excluded "faith" from this "gift of God". Even then you still need to explain where faith comes from. If you hold that faith is inherent in all men, then you need to explain why some men don't have faith. What is the difference between the saved man and the unsaved man? Sin? No that is common to all, and Paul was the "chief of sinners". Wisdom? Righteousness? These are gifts from God as well. Election? I say yes. What is your answer?

If we deal with all of these, we should come out with something. Take your time, I'm still working on my "Free Will" paper. (And I still am interested in your view of sin, free-will, angels, and heaven.)

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:18 am

The Myth of Libertarian Free Will (and objections answered)

This is a summary, so far, of all that I've addressed concerning Libertarian Free Will. I'll leave it to others to prove that such a thing even exists

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the stony heart out of your body, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements and do them." (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

"For doubtless, against thine holy Son Jesus, whom thou hast annointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel gathered themselves together, To do whatsoever thine hand, and thy counsel had determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28)

We see in these two scriptures, both a contrast and a similarity. The contrast is that, in the Ezekiel passage, God causes His People to walk in His Statutes while, in the Acts passage, God is actively working in the hearts of wicked men to whatever His Counsel had determined to be done. The similarity is that God is Sovereignly at work in both cases. There is a lot of talk among today's Christians about "Free-will". It is said that those of us who hold to the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace, otherwise known as Calvinism, oppose human "free-will". This is certainly not the case, for the Westminster Confession of Faith devotes the entire Chapter 9 defending the free-will of man. The issue, however, is that those who oppose us insist on a sort of "Libertarian" free will, a free will without boundaries, a free will able to manipulate events in the Spiritual realm . In the end, however, all must acknowledge that man's will indeed has limitations. Just ask, "Is it possible for anyone to live an entire lifetime without sinning?" If the hearer has any Biblical sense about him at all, he will have to acknowledge that men are indeed "slaves to sin". (Romans 6:17-20; Titus 3:3; 2 Peter 2:19).

It is acknowledged by any sober-minded person that man does have a will. Furthermore, it is easily proven than man's will is "free" to do what he wants to do. The problem arises when man's "free will" seeks for itself to become divine, able to save lost sinners, and effecting what Christ's work on Calvary was apparently unable to complete. For the Arminians tell us that "God is a gentleman, who will never go against man's "free will"", as if the Almighty God who created the universe and all things in it, sovereignly working all things to the council of His will (Ephesians 1:11), must bow to the liberty of His own creation. Thus God's Sovereignty is denied, and God is not God.

Man's will is no cure for the sinful nature, but is instead the cause. Man's will has been corrupted by the Fall, and therefore, must be redeemed along with the rest off our wicked selves. Even the most basic philosopher quickly learns that man's will is neither libertarian nor autonomous. It is a secondary entity which depends on many things. The very definition is a rational person is one whose will is under the control of reason and rational thinking. To be "free" from such would make one insane. Wills are controlled by emotions, love, hate, anger, sadness, etc. Diseases can affect wills. Drug addicts "freely" partake in the substance that enslaves them, a perfect illustration of man's willing slavery to sin, but slavery nonetheless. Every part of man has been spiritually killed by the fall. He is totally depraved, and will be condemned forever unless God intervene on His behalf. For, "he that believeth not, is condemned already..." (John 3:18).

The weak "free will" philosophy has taken over modern evangelism. Instead of preaching "Good News", we have limited ourselves to "good advice". We plead for men to come to a begging Christ, who is standing on the sidelines just hoping that the wicked sinner can muster up enough faith of his own resources to let Jesus save him. Oddly enough, most Christians who preach this doctrine won't hesitate to pray for God to "save" lost loved ones, even though they teach that " God is a gentleman, who will never violate our free-will" (see Psalm 33:10-12). As John Owen pointed out in his chapter "The Idol of Free-will", man's will is not "free" until the Son makes him free. (John 8:36). Man's will is free only in the sense that he does what he wants to do. Man's will is not free to change his own sinful heart, as Ezekiel 36:26-27 shows. This is the work of God alone.

The Sovereignty of God

Charles Spurgeon right observed that "Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne. They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love. They love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his scepter in his hand and his crown upon his head. But it is God upon the throne that we love to preach. It is God upon his throne whom we trust." Attempts have been made by many in all camps to "reconcile" the paradox between God's Sovereignty and man's "free-will", and volumes have been written in an effort to do just that. However, this alleged paradox is built on the assumption that man's will is capable of acting independent of God's decrees in even the least way. This idea is completely refuted in the opening Scriptures, as well as many others. God's sovereignty is openly declared throughout the Scriptures, whereas "free-will" is absent.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none other God, and there is nothing like me, Which declare the last thing from the beginning: and from of old, the things that were not done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do whatsoever I will. I call a bird from the East, and the man of my counsel from far: as I have spoken, so will I bring it to pass: I have purposed it, and I will do it." (Isaiah 46:9-11).

"But our God is in heaven: he doeth whatsoever he will." (Psalm 115:3)

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and according to his will he worketh in the armies of heaven, and in the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, nor say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)

"The Lord breaketh the counsel of the nations, and bringeth to nought the plans of the people. The counsel of the Lord shall stand forever, and the plans of his heart throughout all generations. Blessed is that nation, whose God is the Lord: the people that he hath chosen for his own inheritance." (Psalm 33:10-12)

He "... worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," (Ephesians 1:11)

These Scriptures alone should be enough to refute libertarian "free-will".

God's Sovereignty in the Works of Man

Isaiah tells us that God "hast wrought all our works for us." (Isaiah 26:12). With regard to the continued attempt to deify man's will, Stephen Charnock asks, "But what if the foreknowledge of God, and the liberty of the will cannot be reconciled by man? Shall we therefore deny a perfection in God to support a liberty in ourselves? Shall we rather fasten ignorance upon God, and accuse Him of blindness to maintain our liberty?"

Both Calvinists and Arminians believe in some sense that God has two "wills". The Calvinist holds that God has a "revealed" will (as given through his commandments"), and a secret will, His eternal decrees that are not revealed to man. Both of these are scriptural (Deut. 29:29). The Arminian holds that God has a "perfect" will (which can be compared to His secret will) and a "permissive" will, a horrible monstrosity in which God relinquishes His sovereign governance and turns a portion of His kingdom over to who knows what (man, fate, the Devil)? The fact that God predestines all the works of man is offensive to the rebellious human heart, but cannot be denied from the Scriptures. God decrees and wills all things that have been and will ever be, “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10). God controls the steps (Jer. 10:23) and words of man (Prov. 16:1) as well as heart of a king (Prov. 21:1). In God “we live, and move, and have our being,” (Acts 17:28). He "upholds all things by the word of his power,” (Heb. 1:3), that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of his Father (Matt. 10:29). God fashioned the days of man, before they ever existed (Psalm 139:16). This is the God of the Bible, not the poor helpless being who sits on some distant throne hoping that His people will use their "free will" and let Him save them.

One of the most sobering aspects of God's sovereignty is His working in the sinful acts of wicked men. To most Christians today, it is a theological bombshell to hear that God wills all that happens, including man's evil deeds. Not only that, but he uses the wickedness of man to bring about His Divine, immutable decree. According to Scripture, even Satan himself is in the hands of a Sovereign God. It is for this reason that many have sought to distinguish the will of God from the “permission” of God. However, God Himself has repudiated this distinction with His own Word, stating that He "works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11). God does not alter His decree based on our “free-will”, but acts totally independent of this idol.

While feeble-minded man attempts to remove God's purposeful will from all calamity and replace it with only His distant permission, Job, after passing through his many trials at the hands of Satan, his friends, his family, and his enemies, declares, “Who among all these does not know That the hand of the LORD has done this?” (Job 12:9) Thus the idea of mere “permission” is fiction. As punishment for David's sin, God proclaimed concerning Absalom's incest that He would "raise up evil out of" David's own house, and declared it to be His work (2 Sam 12:11-12). The envy, kidnapping, and lying of Joseph's brothers was a direct act of God (Genesis 45:7).

Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13:8) It was not only the permission, but the will of God for His Son to be slain (Luke 22:42). In fact, it was God Himself who performed the work, because it pleased Him to do so (Isaiah 53:10). God was actively working in the following sinful acts; that Judas betrayed Christ; that the Jews plotted to kill Him; and that the Romans carried out their act, for all these did nothing but "what the hand and counsel of God had decreed" (Acts 4:28). This is affirmed by Peter, that Christ was delivered to death by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23); in other words, that God, to whom all things are known from the beginning, had willed (not just permitted) what the Jews and Romans had executed. He repeats the same thing elsewhere, “Those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled,” (Acts 3:18). They were all "disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Peter 2:8).

"I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

These are just a few passages that show that God not only created all things, but sovereignly governs all things according the council of His will, decreeing even sinful acts without being their author. Any other belief is an attempt by rebellious man to remove God from His throne and thrust His church into Deism, or even fatalism.

How does God decrees and work in the sinful acts of wicked men without being the author of sin (James 1:13)? The answer is that God does not force man to sin. He doesn't have to. While "in Him is no darkness" (1 John 1:5), man has enough sin in himself to accomplish all the evil that God could ever decree, for when a person sins, "each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death." (James 1:14-15). All God has to do is withhold grace, and "[deliver] them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient..." (Romans 1:28). This is what man's "free will" profits him. While God Himself is not the tempter, but He does send evil and lying Spirits to accomplish these acts (See 1 Kings 22:19-23; 1 Sam 16:14-23, 1 Sam 18:10, 1 Sam 19:9). God is said to "lay a stumbling block to make men fall" (Romans 9:33) and "send strong delusion, that they should believe lies," (2 Thess. 2:11). It is God alone who "hast set them in slippery places, and cast them down into desolation. How suddenly are they destroyed, perished and horribly consumed..." (Psalm 73:18-19). Thus, God can decree even man's evil deeds, and work to bring them to pass, yet man's sin remains man's own, and he is fully responsible for them.

Salvation is of the Lord

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:..." (Psalm 65:4)

God is sovereign over the eternal destination of man. God Himself predestines the salvation of His elect (Acts 13:48; Eph. 1:4-5; Eph. 1:11; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Thess 2:13-14), and He predestines the destruction of the wicked (Prov. 16:4; Romans 9:21-22; Jude 1:4). However, it must be pointed out that, in both cases, men are still free to do what they want to do. There is a temptation here for many to stand in judgment of the Almighty. Paul, however, offers a stern rebuke to those who do so.

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doeth he yet complain? for who hath resisted his will? But, O man, who art thou which pleadest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power of the clay to make of the same lump one vessel to honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:19-21)

You must be Born Again

The worst part of "free will" theology is that it undermines the need for the new birth. For free-willers tell us that man, by virtues of the intelligence, reason, and wisdom that he was created with, is able to effectively come to Christ an obtain salvation. This is commonly referred to as "Human Ability" and is refuted time and again by Scripture. Jesus tells us that "No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me, draw him" (John 6:44), and again "no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65). Human Ability, if taken to it's logical conclusion, denies the need for the New Birth (John 3:3). It makes the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation either unnecessary, are at best, ineffective. However, the Bible is clear that a man must be born of the Spirit BEFORE he can even see the kingdom of God, let alone choose it. Human Ability gives natural man ability to receive the things of God, which the Scriptures specifically deny (1 Cor. 2:14). Furthermore, Human Ability as a contribution to salvation is expressly denied in Scripture (John 1:12-13, Romans 9:16). Without the new birth, the things of the Kingdom of God appear to be foolishness. You must be born again. This is a supernatural event, one that man is totally incapable of doing.

Conclusion

The so-called paradox between God's Sovereignty and Man's "Free will" is a paradox invented by the minds of men. God's Sovereignty is clearly spelled out in the Scriptures, while man's freedom to act outside that sovereignty is but a pipe dream, and figment of man's vain imagination, the product not of the Divine Letter, but of human neurons. Nothing of this sort exists in the Scriptures.

Objections

1.) God offers choices, and commands us to "choose" and "repent".

A common objection to this Sovereignty are the commands to "choose this day whom you will serve (Joshua 24:15), and to "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out," (Acts 3:19). This is true, and God does offer this choice to all. However, man, in his fallen state, is unable to make that choice. Jesus commands us to Come to Him (Matt. 11:28), but then clearly states that no one can come to Him unless is has been granted to him by the Father (John 6:65). Paul tells us to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12), and then immediately adds, “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13). The Scriptures are clear. The ability to repent, obey, and respond to the gospel call is itself a gift from God. Therefore, God's commandments to “Repent” do not presume our ability to do so. The sinner does not need good advice. He needs new life, and only God can give that. This was the basis for St. Augustine's prayer that brought the Pelagian heresy out of the woodwork. “Lord, command what you will, and give what you command.” This is most necessary, for without Him, we can do nothing (John 15:5).

2.) God is unfair.

This objection overlooks Original Sin and man's inherent guilt. The last thing that any human would ever truly want to do is appeal to God's "fairness" and "justice". If God were to merely operate in the realm of fairness, then no one would be saved. God could wipe out the entire human race and send everyone to Hell, and be totally fair in doing so. Mercy is the opposite of "fairness". Mercy, by definition, means that God does not give us what we deserve. Is God unfair? He sent Jesus to die for my sins. There has never been anything more "unfair" than that.

3.) Election makes coming to Christ futile.

Unfortunately, the Doctrine of Election is portrayed as a negative, when it is actually a positive. Election does not make coming to Christ futile. Election makes coming to Christ possible. No truly penitent sinner has ever been turned away from Christ because of Election. Without election, there would be no truly penitent sinners.

4.) Does that make us Spiritual Robots?

Man is not a Spiritual Robot. He is spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1). We have already acknowledged that man has a will which is free to do what he wants to do. The problem is that what man wants to do is sin. It is his nature, and he is a slave to it (Romans 6:17). The entire man must be born of the Spirit before he can see the kingdom of God (John 3:3), and man's will is not exempt from this need (John 1:12-13).

Angels are a perfect example of how to correctly the Scriptures concerning will and predestination. It is no coincidence that the saved “angels” are referred to as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21), whilst Hell is prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41). If anything in scripture is clear, it is that the final estate of angels are predestined. Yet, even the angels have the ability to think and morally reason independently. Hell was created specifically for the wicked angels. Yet, the substance of what guides their actions does not cease to be “will”. Therefore, with angels, we see a prime example of beings that have a “will”, yet their wills are not free. Elect Angels cannot be damned, nor can wicked ones be saved. Most Christians have no problem with God predestining angels, but get most offended at the idea that God could do this with people. Why do we assume that our wills are more free than that of angels?

In heaven, we cannot sin (Rev. 21:27). Does that mean that we will be Spiritual Robots? Of Course not. It means that we will serve Him (Rev. 22:3), and do so willingly. In heaven, our wills will finally be free to "not sin".

5.) Why preach?

Why the great Commission? If all is rigidly predetermined? If God has already predetermined who would be saved, then why bother to preach the gospel? The answer is multifold. 1.) Jesus told us to (Matt. 28:18-20). 2.) The means in which God gathers His elect is "by the foolishness of preaching (1 Cor. 1:21). We don't know who the elect are, nor are we to presume who they are. What we do know is that some will accept it, and some will reject it. Why? If our answers are anything other than the sovereign election of God, then we have to assume some inherent goodness or wisdom in men that enables them to do this. Someone once commented to Charles Spurgeon that if he really believed in Calvinism, he shouldn't bother to preach. He replied, “God has called me to preach His Word, and if I knew that all the elect had a yellow stripe painted down their backs, then I would give up preaching the gospel and go lift up shirt tails.” As Calvinists, we can preach the Word, knowing that "...My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11). Is this verse always true, or only when people are saved?

6.) Love and obedience cannot be true love and obedience without free will.

Says who? The opening verse (Ezekiel 36:27) is very clear in that God gives His people a heart to obey Him, and causes them to walk in His statutes (See also 2 Chron. 30:12). Love must come from the heart, and true Godly love must come from a true Godly heart, not a deceitful and desperately wicked heart (Jer. 17:9). Man, by his fallen nature, drinks iniquity like water (Job 15:16); does not seek God (Rom_3:11); loves darkness and hates the light (John 3:19-20); is dead in trespasses (Eph. 2:1); cannot understand things that are Spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14); is a slave to sin (John 8:34); can no more choose good than a leopard can change his spots (Jer. 13:23). This is why Jonah tells us that "Salvation is of the Lord" (Jonah 2:9). Paul agrees, telling us that "it is by grace alone, not of works, lest any man should boast". (Eph. 2:8-9). Ezekiel could have prophesied to those dry bones until he was blue in the face (Ezekiel 37:1-10), but unless the Spirit of God comes down to give them life (Ezekiel 37:5-6), they will never choose anything. They are dead. So is fallen man Spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1, Col. 2:13). Sinners do not need good advice. What they need is new life, and only God can give that.

7.) Why the work on the cross if all is rigidly predetermined?

To satisfy the justice of God for the elect. I would ask, why the work on the cross if there was no one determined to be saved. Did Jesus actually die in order to save "nobody"? I hold that He came to "save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). I'll deal more with this when I get to the atonement, as this was mainly about "free will", although it is all related.

8.) So we must let to prisoners free and hold them not accountable for their crimes, rape, torture, molestations, abuse, beatings, robbery because they are actually fulfilling God's will?

B.W., I addressed this all above. We are all guilty, and we all deserve punishment. All men are accountable to God at all times. Man's sins are his own, and He is fully responsible for them. The guilty are to be punished on earth, because God has commanded it (Romans 13:1-5).

Up Next, Errors concerning Predestination and Foreknowledge concerning the Scriptures listed above. (Again, this will take some time as I try to gather up all arguments from these threads.)

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:21 am

Jac,

Another related Question (sorry to pile up so much here, take your time).

Since you are a futurist concerning Revelation...

Does the Antichrist have free will? Is He predestined? Can he choose to be saved? Is His rebellion inevitable? Why?

What about the 144,000? Are they predestined to be saved?

Of course, none of them can have "free will" before they exist, right?

B. W. · Post by **B. W.** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:25 am

Jac3510 wrote:Uhm . . . not so hot with intepreting parables, are you PL? What's the main point? I bet BW would have no problem seeing it.

Yes I see it Jac!

Now let me illustrate how easy it is too twist the bible to build doctrines of men and not have the scriptures testify of Christ but rather man's doctrine.

One: The bible teaches that Jesus is the Lion of Judah and that he is also the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. A man read these and concluded that Jesus was not a man but rather a Lamb slain for universal salvation before the foundation of the world and that Jesus was reincarnated back as a Lion later, and possibly make manhood if he was a good lion.

Does the bible state that Jesus is the Lion of Judah and that he is also the Lamb of God? Yes, but man twist scriptures.

Two - Another story: A man read from 1 John that we are to walk like Christ and be Christ like. Jesus said in the Gospels that He and the Father were one. Therefore, knowing that God the Father is a sovereign Lord and Jesus is Lord and we are to walk as Sovereign Lord's to shine light to the masses.

Men are to be Lord's over their wives and children. Wives are to submit to this Lordship of the Husband and children are to obey their father. All this, the bible has ample scriptural proof text to back up, which the man did and used to govern his family.

He was the sovereign over the household. His wife was expecting twins and the husband, exercising his right to act God like said he must act like God and preordain what these children were to do and be like. So he said, “I will hate one of the twins because I have the right too, like Chirst I am Lord too — One will be an athlete and have riches but I will hate him and curse him as the scripture declare that I am to walk as Christ and act like God as Romans chapter nine tells me I must. The other twin will be a lowly janitor but I will love him.

After the twins were born, neither had the will to become as their father wanted so the father would demand, “I am the boss and determined your course in life and if you disobey, I will break you legs and beat you till you submit to me — you are an athlete and you are a janitor and wife you cannot go to the store, shop, or anything until I preordain the program in writing. If you fail to obey, you will be beaten until you learn to comply. I do this because I love you and know best as I am the sovereign lord of this home as the bible declares. I must destroy your will so you learn to love me!”

The kids refused and he beat and broke their legs, for every act of disobedience — he tormented until his family complied. His wife eventually left him and sought shelter in the Home for Batter Women and the children grew, crippled for life. A tree is known by its fruit. People do twist scriptures to justify the acts of men and call it defending the faith, standing on doctrine, etc. Doctrine that does not testify of who Jesus is and what He truly is like and glorify God is not of God but of man who can twist scriptures to justify other men's ideas concerning scriptures.

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puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:26 am

B.W.,

Is it not enough for you to redefine "predestination"? Must you now redefine "sovereign"?

And you still haven't answered my questions. I don't hold out much hope that you will, other than to post irrelevant stories about spousal and child abuse.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:37 am

YLTYLT wrote:PL, You quoted a verse earlier from Mat 18:11

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Who are lost, only those that will eventually be saved, or the whole world?

If only some people will be saved, (which I believe we both agree on that part) then from your point of view, since God always does what he tries to do, then the above verse would indacate that only SOME of the people are born lost. (Only the ones that He will or has saved) That would mean that some are not lost and have no need of slavation. But I do not think either of us agree with this statement. Or do you think that some people are born without the need for salvation?

All need salvation, but only some will get it. (At least we agree on that). Let me ask you

According to Matthew 18:11, do you believe that the Son of man is come to save the whole world"? Did He succeed?

I'll address this further in Part III of my paper. What did Christ accomplish at Calvary?

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:38 pm

Let me add one more objection to your list, PL, because this one has always troubled me:

9.) How does a god who does all things according to his good pleasure take pleasure in creating people, engineering their decision to make the wrong choice regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thereby causing sin and spiritual death to come into the world, resulting in his picking some of these people to be saved and the rest going to hell...which was all his predetermined plan?

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:56 pm

That's a good question, although it is more an objection to “predestination” than to “free will”, so I'll make sure I include it in the next piece. The short answer is, “I don't know”. The Bible never tells us why or how God gets “pleasure” out of this, nor does it tell us on what basis He predestines and elects. All we know for sure, according to the Scriptures, is that God does predestine, and that He does so independent of man's choices (for He did so before man ever had a choice). Romans 9:23 gives us a possible glimpse as to why God creates “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”. It was so “that he might declare the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory”. This seems to be validated in His words to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17). In the end, God has one main goal and purpose, and that is to glorify Himself. I'll seek a more “thorough” answer in my final “predestination” document.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:41 am

Election and the Myth of Contingent Predestination

"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!" (Psalm 33:10-12)

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

Predestined and Foreknowledge Correctly Defined

Men will seemingly do anything in order to maintain their liberty, apparently even invent flaws in the Sovereignty of God if necessary. It is common place for Arminians and Pelagians to jump on the word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29, and use it to redefine the word "predestine". They tell us that "God's predestination, per this passage, is contingent upon His 'foreknowing' man's choice". Such nonsense requires that,

First, Predestination be redefined. The term Predestined (proorizo) is defined as "to limit in advance, that is, predetermine: - determine before, ordain. We are told by those who oppose us that God's predestination is contingent upon man's actions. This, by definition, is not predestination. The terms "predestination" and "contingency" are opposites. Events in history that are "contingent" are not "predestined". "Contigent Predestination" can no more exist than "cold heat" or "dry moisture"."

Second, God's omniscience be denied. God must first learn what choices His creation will make before He decrees anything. Thus God, getting wiser with time, is able to make better decisions based on this newfound knowledge. This can only work one of two ways. Either God "predestines" based on a foreknowledge of some inherent goodness in man that He was previously ignorant of, or else He "predestines" based on some accidental goodness that He was not the author of.

Third, God's omnipotence be denied. Rather than do whatever pleases Him (Psalm 115:3), God is subject to the actions of His own creation, actions that haven't even happened yet. In this case, God "predestines" events that He "foreknew" would happen anyway. Thus, in the end, God really predestines nothing, making His determinate counsel nothing more than a hopeful wish.

Now in case of the term "foreknowledge", it is ALWAYS used in Scripture to refer to persons, never their actions. In Romans 8:29, it is WHOM He foreknew, not what. In Acts 2:23, God's foreknowledge is used in conjuction with His "determinate counsel". The only other occurrances of "foreknowledge" are Romans 11:2 and 1 Peter 1:2, and in both cases, it refers to people, not their foreseen actions. Of course, God does foresee and foreknow our actions, because He predestines and works in them. There in nothing in Scripture that suggests that God predestines based on the foreknowledge of our actions. This is a doctrine built on theological desperation, not sound exegesis.

We need to define our Scriptural words with Scripture, not with Webster's Dictionary. In Scripture, the term "knowledge" is used as a way to express an intimate love or favorable regard. Three times in Genesis 4, we see that a man "knew" his wife, causing her to conceive and bare a son (Genesis 4:1, Genesis 4:17, Genesis 4:25). Surely the term "know" means more than "to be informed about". God told Israel that "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). Did God not know about other families? Again, "If any man love God, the same is known of Him" (1 Cor. 8:3). Of course, God knows those who do not love Him as well. When Jesus says to the wicked on the Day of Judgment, "Depart from Me, I never knew you..." (Matt. 7:23), He isn't telling them that He doesn't know who they are, or that He doesn't know anything about them. He is saying to them, "I never loved you with any redeeming love. You are not my sheep, and you shall not be mine. Therefore, depart from me, you who practice lawlessness".

Unconditional Election

Throughout Scripture, we see that God's predestination and election work independent of man's choices, ie. Unconditional Election. In Romans 9:11, God chose Jacob over Esau when "the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand". Eph. 1:4 says that " he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him", not because he foreknew that we would be holy and blameless. Eph. 1:5 and Eph. 1:11 agree that we were "predestined... according to the purpose of his will". In 2 Timothy 1:9, He "saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us through Christ Jesus before the world was". The first observation here is that we were saved, not according to our works (or wills), but according to His own purpose and grace". The second observation is that "grace was given us through Christ Jesus before the world was". Therefore, the grace that we have is not the result of foreseen faith, but according to His own purpose before the world was." 2 Thess. 2:13 tells us that "God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth". "Belief of the truth" is part of what God chose for us from the beginning. Nothing pertaining to our salvation can be credited to us, "for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). Despite the textual criticism in this passage, "faith" cannot be separated from this "gift of God", and made to stand on it's own. If faith were "of ourselves", then grace would not be a gift, but rather a reward for our faith.

Besides, those who reject faith as being a gift from God have no explanation for where faith comes from. Why is it that "not all have faith" (2 Thess. 3:2)? If it be attributed to "free will", and we grant that all men have the same "free will", then either 1.) All men would have the same faith, or 2.) those who were able to obtain faith of their own resources have some inherent quality (wisdom, righeousness, etc.) in them that faithless men do not have. The first case, as 2 Thess. 3:2 points out, is unscriptural, as well as refuted by common observation. In the second case, since wisdom (James 1:5; James 3:17) and righteousness (Romans 5:17; Romans 10:3) are themselves gifts from God, we are right back where we started, with Unconditional election. According to Isaiah 43:10, we are chosen that we may believe, not on any condition that we do believe, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake." (Phillipians 1:29).

It has been suggested by some that the phrase "in Him" in Eph. 1:4 refers to the position of believers who exercise their "free-will" prior to being chosen, rather then the result of being chosen. This holds no water, for we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, long before we had any will whatsoever. Jesus was very clear that no one could come to Him unless it was granted to him by the Father (John 6:65). Therefore, in order to be "in Him", we must first have it granted to us "by Him", for "of him are ye in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor. 1:30).

Election or Ratification?

There are clear definitions to words in Scripture. The Arminians, Pelagians, Open Theists, and the like are stuck with the task of having to redefine words in order to make their theology work, such as "predestined", as I showed above. Another word that must be redefined is "election" (ekloge). It is defined as "(divine) selection (abstractly or concretely): - chosen, election." It is no concidence that the saints in Scripture are referred to as the "elect" of God (Matt. 24:22, Matt. 24:24, Matt. 24:31, Romans 8:33). Furthermore, it is said that this election is independent of man's choices, and is accomplished so "that the purpose of God according to election might stand" (Romans 9:11). Election means what it says, that God "elects" (chooses) the brethren beloved of God (1 Thess. 1:4). Those who oppose the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace will say that election, like predestination, is based on a "foreknowledge" of faith. This, by definition, is not election, but more akin to ratification. In this view, salvation falls into the frail hands of man, and if certain people make the correct decision, God comes along and puts His stamp of approval (ratifies) their choice. However, according to Scripture, "...many are called, but few chosen." (Matt. 22:14). Salvation is God's choice, for "God chooses his own heritage" (Psalm 33:12). As a result, "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified His elect. (Romans 8:28-30). God did not appoint His elect to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:9). He chose His elect in Him before the foundation of the world, predestined them to adoption as sons, according to the good pleasure of His will. (Eph. 1:4-5) We were predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will. (Eph. 1:11) He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. (2 Tim. 1:9). God does not leave the "choice" of salvation to man, but "God from the beginning chose us for salvation". (2 Thess. 2:13-14). In the end, those who are with Him are "called, chosen, and faithful." (Rev. 17:14). (By the way, the greek word for "church" [ekklesia] literally means "the called out ones".)

Pharoah vs. Paul

“For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.” (Romans 9:17-18)

"And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go to the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one named Saul, a man of Tarsus: for behold, he prayeth; and he hath seen a man named Ananias coming in, and laying his hands on him, that he might receive his sight. But Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many of this man, how much evil he did to thy saints at Jerusalem: and here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call upon thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel: for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name's sake." (Acts 9:11-16)

"This is a true saying, and by all means worthy to be received, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." (1 Tim. 1:15)

In these passages, we have a lost sinner in Pharoah and a saved sinner in Paul. We must ask, what made the difference? What was it that allowed Saul of Tarsus, the chief of sinners, to obtain mercy from God, while Pharoah was rejected? The answer must come from Scripture itself, not our emotions. Certainly, it cannot be some inherent righteousness in Saul, nor can it rightly be said that Pharoah was a worse or more obstinate sinner than Paul, for Paul was the chief of sinners.

Romans 9:18 gives us the answer. God has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. His election is unconditional, as we saw with Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:11). God's purpose for raising up Pharoah was to show His power by destroying him (Romans 9:17), where as Paul was chosen to bear the Lord's name to gentiles and kings (Acts 9:15). Each man served God's purpose.

The Scriptures plainly tell us that God hardened Pharoah's heart, so that He could lay His hand on (judge) Egypt.

“And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.” (Exodus 7:3-4)

It does not say that God “allowed” Pharoah's heart to be hardened. It says that God hardened it (and it says it on several occasions). Yet, Pharoah was responsible for his wickedness. The Scriptures tell us that Pharoah hardened his own heart. But that doesn't answer the most important question. Could Pharoah have repented and overcome God's hardening of His heart? How?

“The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.” (Proverbs 21:1)

“The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.” (Proverbs 16:4)

As John Newton used to say, “…the Lord must have loved me before I was born, or else He would not have seen anything in me to love afterwards.”

The Immutability of God and His Decree

“I am the LORD, I change not,” (Malachi 3:6). This attribute of God, clearly stated in the Scriptures, has been challenged in some newer movements such as Open Theism, a heretical belief that God leaves future events "open" and dependent on human actions. (The title of Charles Hartshorne's book “Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes” tells you all you need to know about this nonsense). This is easily refuted by Scripture. The God of the Bible has already declared "the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10). “As I have purposed, so shall it stand,” (Isaiah 14:24). God is “"the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17). “But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does.” (Job 23:13). “Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.” (Psalm 119:89).

Objections

1.) God "repents" and seems to "change His mind in Scripture.

There are some who would object to God's immutability based on a few incidents where God did seem to "change His mind". In Genesis 6:6, it reads, "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." It must be noted that it does not say that God changed His mind, but that it "repented" or "sorrowed" the Lord (nacham). This is known as an anthropopathism, where God attributes human emotion or action to Himself to accommodate our limited understanding. God describes Himself as having eyes, ears, and hands, yet God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and has no body (Luke 24:39). He speaks of Himself as "waking" (Psalm 78:65), as "rising early" (Jer. 7:13); yet He neither slumbers nor sleeps (Psalm 121:4). In this same way, God can be said to "repent" or be "sorrowed", when in fact, “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” (Numbers 23:19). If we are to use Genesis 6:6 as a case where God "changes his mind", we are faced with the monstrous obsurdity that God made a mistake, was taken by surprise at man's wickedness, and had to resort to the flood as "Plan B" in order to correct the mistake.

Another related objection is the 15 years that God added to Hezekiah's life (2 Kings 20:1-6). Again, This whole episode was part of God's eternal, immutable secret counsel, for "in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there were none of them." (Psalm 139:16). At this point, I must point out that the Open Theist view that God can change His mind is a death blow to Arminian foreknowledge. Arminians and Pelagians insist that God "foreknows" all of men's actions, and establishes His decrees based on that foreknowledge. Yet, if God changed His mind about Hezekiah's days based on Hezekiah's prayer, then God apparently didn't foreknow that Hezekiah didn't really want to die. Based on this new information, God then was able to make a better decision and give Hezekiah the extra 15 years. (Most "Open Theists" will support what I just wrote wholeheartedly!!!)

Obviously, this is nonsense. It was God's "revealed will" that changed, not His mind, for "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world,” (Acts 15:18). If God already knows all His works from the beginning of the world, he has no need to ever change His mind. Why would He, since "his way is perfect" (Psalm 18:30)? Perfection cannot be impr0ved on. “For the LORD of hosts has purposed, And who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, And who will turn it back?” (Isaiah 14:27). "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? (Romans 11:34)? Let the opposition continue to speak of this god who has everchanging, open decrees. In the end, “The counsel of the LORD stands for ever, the plans of his heart to all generations.” (Psalm 33:11).

2.) How does a god who does all things according to his good pleasure take pleasure in creating people, engineering their decision to make the wrong choice regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thereby causing sin and spiritual death to come into the world, resulting in his picking some of these people to be saved and the rest going to hell...which was all his predetermined plan?

That's a good question. The short answer is, “I don't know”. The Bible never tells why God predestines the sinful acts of the wicked, nor does it tell us on what basis He predestines and elects. Mountians of scholarly ink have been wasted in an effort to describe the secret things that belong to the Lord (Deut. 29:29). All we know for sure, according to the Scriptures, is that God does predestine, and that He does so independent of man's choices (for He did so before man ever had a choice). Romans 9:23 gives us a possible glimpse as to why God creates “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”, “that he might declare the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory”. This seems to be validated in His words to Pharaoh, “"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17). In the end, God has one main goal and purpose, and that is to glorify Himself. God gets glory out of the salvation of His people, and He gets glory out of the destruction of the wicked. Calvinism is a thoroughly God-Centered theology which strips man of everything, allowing him to take glory in nothing. Everything that happens is part of God's predetermined plan, including our trials and tragedies. David Chilton explains, "The Biblical doctrine of predestination, when rightly understood, should not be a source of fear for the Christian; rather, it is a source of comfort and assurance. The opposite of the doctrine of predestination is not freedom, but meaninglessness; if the smallest details of our lives are not part of the Plan of God, if they are not created facts with a divinely determined significance, then they can have no meaning at all. They cannot be "working together for good." But the Christian who understands the truth of God's sovereignty is assured thereby that nothing in his life is without meaning and purpose — that God has ordained all things for His glory and for our ultimate good. This means that even our sufferings are part of a consistent Plan; that when we are opposed, we need not fear that God has abandoned us. We can be secure in the knowledge that, since we have been "called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28), all things in our life are a necessary aspect of that purpose. Martin Luther said: "It is, then, fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. . . . For the Christian's chief and only comfort in adversity lies in knowing that God does not lie, but brings all things to pass immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, altered or impeded".

Up next, "It is Finished", the Atoning Work of Christ, it's intent, and it's accomplishment.