I Used 2 Be Christian =(

[Jac3510]

August, Gman -

Have you considered the fact that this guy is probably just a straight troll? "I'll go to this board, pretend to be a fallen Christian in need, and then show them why Christianity isn't real! And, I can point them to our website, maybe get some good discussion going there."

Of course, maybe this isn't the case, but it's sure what it looks like to me. Regardless, (s)he clearly has taken a surface look at some arguments for Christianity (i.e., the Moral argument), but has never taken it deeper than the atheistic stock rebuttals, which we all know are fairly silly.

IU2BC - if you aren't just trolling, the good news is that the arguments you've read and are now offering are silly, old, and have been refuted for some two thousand years. Origin, Justin Martyr, and other such church fathers dealt with these and other issues a long time ago. These days, we are just restating and refining for our own context those old truths. You said our faith had to be shaken at some point . . . you're simply wrong. It doesn't have to be.

1) Atheism the position of the arrogant imbecile or the presumptuous fool.

It is the hight of arrogance to claim that God cannot logically exist, especially with such arguments as the problem of evil. On the flip side, presumed atheism is foolish and closed minded.

2) Agnosticism is the position of the intellectual coward.

Saying "I don't know," sounds very virtuous and honest. But, in the end, it is cowardice. Examine the evidence and take a position. State what you believe, and don't be afraid of it.

3) Theism is either the position of the lazy believer or committed devotee.

There are many people who simply believe by blind faith. They are lazy in their thinking. On the other hand, there are those who have considered the positions and have come to solid conclusions. While they recongize that those conclusions need refining, they also recognize that to be a lifelong process. Thus, they spend their lives growing and learning.

Ah, and while you are deciding which camp you fall into, I'd suggest you notch your tone down just a wee bit.

God bless

[Gman]

Of course, maybe this isn't the case, but it's sure what it looks like to me. Regardless, (s)he clearly has taken a surface look at some arguments for Christianity (i.e., the Moral argument), but has never taken it deeper than the atheistic stock rebuttals, which we all know are fairly silly.

Yes Jac, they were trying to make a moral argument out of it, so I decided to make a moral argument out of Darwinian Evolution. Something very easy to do..

The links he gave were even funnier, in fact it made my beliefs in God even stronger because they had the wrong facts again.. Same old stuff though... Like a broken record.

Thanks for the input.. By the way I think both August and I knew about that chosen name.. That is why our defences were up..

As for evolution it claims that one person is more evolved than another. It has no message, it has no future, it has no cause... It other words it really promotes nothing, but simply breaks down people to simple mechanisms. Helpless robots casing their tails... No spiritually... a meaningless life. What a sad life to live...

[Vash]

I'm sorry, I assumed most people thought the murder of 70,000 people was cruel. You want a standard I use to assert? Ok ... how about ... killing anyone is mean. God's done it 70,000 times.

Ok, I stopped reading the rest of the thread after this quote so maybe someone said this already but...

I've come to believe that the mystery of death, while debateable just like everything, is to prevent worser evil from happening.

For instance, God is all-knowing. He knows the future. He knows the roadblocks, struggles, dangers, traps, and all that, that someone will eventually come to if they continue on the path that they are on.

With that in mind, how do you know that those 70,000 people wouldn't eventually have killed all of the isrealities or something? In that instance, God's intervention is justified.

Also, if anyone brings that up in a debate, as an argument against God's love or against God in general, I love to use this argument that I heard once, but I can't remember where from, but it goes like this.

"If someone jumped over your fence and killed your plants in your backyard, you'd probably be angry, but if YOU killed your plants, that's your right. They're YOUR plants. We are God plants. God gave us life and He has every right to take that life from us whenever He wants."

[godslanguage]

Yaa, I read the whole thread and I think Jac is right about that IUBAC is a troll, its suspicious that IUBAC and Nick registered as a new user on the same day as well.

[August]

It's quite funny that when atheists are asked to account for their position, they resort to insults, appeal to "common sense", "logic" and " majority opinion", without accounting for the origin of those and why they must be accpeted as the ultimate standard. Mix those in with assertions of how stupid Christans are. Any counter-arguments offered by Christians are duly ignored, and they just move on to their next lie, misconception or half-truth, without even attempting to understand or engage.

Simple logic tells us that every effect has a cause, and all I am trying to do is find out what the cause of "common sense" and the other reasoning tools that these people use is. Where did it come from? What caused it to be in the first place? And then to prove it, without the circular reasoning and dodging of questions that normally accompany it. The problem is, they cannot account for their own worldview.

We let this discussion go on so that everyone who visits here can see how atheists debate, and how untenable atheism as a position really is.

[Jorge S]

Hi IU2BAC,

If you ever come back to this thread please let us know your personal reasons for not believing. Other people's testimonies forcing you into or away from a Christian belief are inconsequential. What do you think? What have you personally found to support your position -or rather your lack of any position at all?

You are showing critical lack of information regarding the Bible and regarding both Science and History. Methinks you were never really a Christian so don't claim to be one based on the 'decision' of the 10 year-old person you were when first exposed to Christianity. It is only now that you are trying to make a choice and you seem more inclined to question the Bible than to learn from it.

Problem is that the arguments you are relying upon are not helping in any meaningful way. Vestigial organs!? Evidence for macro-evolution!? Human 'morality' that appoints itself higher than God's!? Yet you punctuate your posts with "I don't know," "I'm not sure" and "I want to learn from everybody's views"!? Come on, give me a break!
There's a Christian fellow at another board whose signature reads something like: 'If you are too open-minded your brain will fall!"

The good news is that God allows for examination and questionning. Don't feel guilty about it. He answers; trust me on that. I used to be a very acid atheist but God won me over. Just open your heart, soul and mind to Him rather than to other people who seem more arrogantly ignorant than anything else.

Cheers.

[Turgonian]

About the issue of the 70,000 people, see here and search within the article for 'His second quote'. Start reading from there. It isn't as mean as it seems...

...which, once again, shows that people should rationally investigate the evidence rather than emotionally question God. He might just ask you,

'Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man, and you shall answer me...' (Job 38:2-3)

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Simple logic tells us that every effect has a cause, and all I am trying to do is find out what the cause of "common sense" and the other reasoning tools that these people use is. Where did it come from? What caused it to be in the first place?

So a simple I don't know will not suffice? I am 100% certain people in the past have lived normal lives without venturing to answer some of these deepoer questions.

[Vash]

Simple logic tells us that every effect has a cause, and all I am trying to do is find out what the cause of "common sense" and the other reasoning tools that these people use is. Where did it come from? What caused it to be in the first place?

So a simple I don't know will not suffice? I am 100% certain people in the past have lived normal lives without venturing to answer some of these deepoer questions.

Of course, but if God, Christianty, Hell, and all that are real, where are those people now?

I don't see why people can't at least TRY to understand. Especially when they have nothing to lose.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

So a simple I don't know will not suffice? I am 100% certain people in the past have lived normal lives without venturing to answer some of these deepoer questions.

Of course, but if God, Christianty, Hell, and all that are real, where are those people now?

I don't see why people can't at least TRY to understand. Especially when they have nothing to lose.

I understand your point, and I am certain that many do understand, but still choose to disagree. Even given that they have nothing to lose.

The good news may be told but not always heard.

[Turgonian]

[My moral intuition] came from a little thing called common sense - and it had nothing to do with God, stop trying to get me to say that it came from God - you don't need to get morals from God, they come from a myriad of other places. A law book is a good place to start.

I don't have my moral intuition from a law book, and neither does my little sister, but that's beside the point...

The point is that it made me laugh that this person said morals come 'from a myriad of places'. The English word 'myriad' is derived from Greek murias which means '10,000'. If he or any other atheist can list for me five out of these ten thousand places where morals come from, I might reconsider my position (or demand that he name the other 9,995).

[LowlyOne]

IUTBAC,

Here is the Orthodox Christian Point Of View, and also a bible teacher named Steve Gregg's statement of beliefs:

1. We believe that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, known as the Old and New Testaments were written by men inspired by God, and are therefore His word of self-revelation to mankind. There is no higher written authority to which we can appeal for our knowledge of God and of His will for us.

2. We believe in the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—Creator of all things—revealed to us in scripture and experience as the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. These three are God, and yet there is only one God. This is affirmed in scripture, though the manner in which God is both one and three is never clearly explained and remains admittedly mysterious. Full comprehension of this mystery is probably not a prerequisite for one's having a relationship with God.

3. We believe that the sin of our first parents involved the whole human race in a disastrous fall, bringing a curse on the earth, and bondage to the power of sin in every child of Adam. This bondage to sin manifests in rebellion against God's rule and alienates man from the only source of eternal life, which is God Himself. The result is the condemnation of the sinner. Man cannot save or justify himself, because he is a slave to sin and the devil. Man's great need is not for self-fulfillment, earthly health, possessions, relationships or security, but reconciliation to God, which man has no innate power to bring about.

4. We believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the unique and sole incarnation of the one true God—and as such was rightly called the Son of God. Jesus was also the Messiah (or Christ) predicted long before, in the Law of Moses, in the Psalms and in the Hebrew Prophets. Jesus lived a sinless and exemplary life, died on a cross under Pontius Pilate, and arose from the dead on the third day. His death provides a propitiation and atonement for the sins of the world, and His resurrection resulted in His exaltation to and enthronement at the right hand of His Father, from which He reigns over His people (called the Church) as a King with His subjects or a shepherd with his flock.

5. We believe that Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God, over which He Himself reigns. Those who are His have been translated out of the power of darkness into this kingdom, and follow Him as sheep follow a shepherd. This kingdom is destined to grow from small beginnings to a global entity, as a mustard seed grows into a great tree. The day will come in which Jesus will return to earth and His kingdom will be universally established over all the earth. All opposition will have been put down, and Christ will reign in righteousness forever and ever.

6. We believe that participation in Christ's kingdom (also called “salvation”) is not entered into by the virtue of doing any number of good works, but by a second, and spiritual, birth—or “regeneration.” This birth is a work of God, which He works in the lives of those who repent of their rebellion against Him and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Possession of this new life is marked by baptism in water and the receiving of God's Holy Spirit. Restoration to God is a matter of God's grace alone, and not human merit. Yet, those who have repented and embraced Christ as Lord exhibit this salvation in their changed lives, which are characterized by faith in God, love for all, and willing obedience to Christ. Righteous behavior and love for the brethren are the chief evidences that such transformation has occurred.

[puritan lad]

- you don't need to get morals from God, they come from a myriad of other places. A law book is a good place to start.

Boy could that open a can of worms. Whose law book? Hitler's? Stalin's? Moses wrote a pretty good one (In fact, it was perfect).