Jesus' death: "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

[Felgar]

There was a preacher on TV the other day that was discussing prophecy and he made an obvious point that I had never realized before... When Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" just before He died, what He was really saying is that He was the fullfilment of Psalm 22.

Back in those times they didn't have Bibles with numbered chapters and verses, so a passage of scripture would have been known by the first part of it. In much the same way that we know Hymns by their first part (Amazing Grace, etc) rather than by a number. So basically Jesus is telling everyone to read Psalm 22.

I initially was thinking that the theory is pretty solid, and then when I looked up the passage in Matthew, the NIV version actually shows Psalm 22 as a reference to Jesus' words. So it went from "that's plausible" to "how could I have missed that?"

It seems so obvious I don't know why I didn't catch on to it earlier, but in case anyone else hadn't I thought I'd share. Psalm 22 as it turns out is about Jesus suffering, being killed, and then delivering humanity to God. The preacher pointed out that it's interesting how the Psalm states that Jesus' "hands and feet are pierced" when in fact crucifixion as a form of capital punishment would not have been around in David's time.

Anyways, just something new I thought I'd share...

[bluesman]

I think you are right but another thing would be that at this point the entire weight of the sins of world for all times was upon the son. At this point the father was not able or not willing to be there.

Mike

[R7-12]

The fact of the matter is that Christ was not forsaken by his God and Father at any time.

Read on in Psalm 22 and when you reach verse 24 you'll notice this,
For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard (NKJV).

There were no sins literally or mystically laid upon Christ at the time of his death. Instead, he paid the price of our sins and in that respect took upon himself the penalty for our sins. Thus his God and Father never left him nor was He unable to be there.

Besides Almighty God is omnipresent.

The cry coming from Christ just prior to his death was an expression of what he endured. God has promised never to leave or forsake anyone and that includes His firstborn son.

The piercing mentioned in that text and others is a reference to what actually caused Christ's death - the piercing of the soldier's spear into his side. Christ did not die of asphyxiation. If he had he would have been considered an unfit or unworthy sacrifice according to the law.

Christ died the death of the Passover Lamb. When he was pierced he shed his blood as the sacrifice which is necessary for the remission of sin. The water also poured out which itself contains significant symbolic meaning.

Every aspect of the life and death of Christ was in accordance with the Law/Word of Almighty God. And we are to walk as he walked.

The fundamental core meaning should be self-evident (Matt. 4:4).

R7-12

[bluesman]

"paid the price of our sins and in that respect took upon himself the penalty for our sins."

Is there not the believe by some anyways that the penalty for our sins is a
separation from God?

Mike

[bluesman]

http://www.konig.org/wc106.htm

is website that explains the belief that the father did forsake the son for a
brief time .

Mike

[R7-12]

Is there not the believe by some anyways that the penalty for our sins is a separation from God?

I'm sure there is but when one considers the attributes of God the only way we can properly understand separation from God is the way the Bible teaches it - complete death.

And that is what the law requires for payment when the law is broken. The righteous requirement of the law is the life of the sinner - the wages of sin is death. That's why a righteous sacrifice was accepted by the Father in our place so that those who repent and turn from evil can be granted everlasting life.

That's also why Christ had to die completely. It is in that way that our sins are paid for. And that is also why Christ had to completely trust his Father for he gave up everything to do his Father's will and thus depended upon Him to raise him from the dead three days and threes nights after his death. He trusted Him completely just as we are called to do also.

R7-12

[IRQ Conflict]

There were no sins literally or mystically laid upon Christ at the time of his death.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The cry coming from Christ just prior to his death was an expression of what he endured.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

God has promised never to leave or forsake anyone and that includes His firstborn son.

The sacrifice on the cross by our Lord and Savior were, to say the least extenuating circumstances.

The Father did hear Him, and turned His back on Him. He raised Himself from the dead, after preaching in hades for three days.

I remember, also, that our blessed Lord had lived in unbroken fellowship with God, and to be forsaken was a new grief to him. He had never known what the dark was till then: his life had been lived in the light of God... His fellowship with the Father was of the highest, deepest, fullest order; and what must the loss of it have been? We lose but drops when we lose our joyful experience of heavenly fellowship; and yet the loss is killing: but to our Lord Jesus Christ the sea was dried up I mean his sea of fellowship with the infinite God. -- Charles Spurgeon

[led]

Since God could know no sin, is it possible for a short time that to Christ it seemed God forsook Him because they were seperated, even though God was near the whole time. Just like when we sin we are seperated from a relationship with God until we repent. Perhaps there was a seperation caused by the sin that He bore until He was again one with God.

Led

[Atticus Finch]

The people who bitterly search for contradictions often call the two different last words of Jesus (before death) as contradicting. These people are not looking at the whole picture.

If I remember properly, Matthew and Mark say that Jesus did the Psalm 22 line and Luke and John say he said "I commend my spirit unto you." or something like that. Where's the contradiction here? I imagine a man dying on a cross would have said as many things as he could if he felt like it.

This is why many of the "contradictions" that people find no longer phase me very much. These people are looking for mistakes and with that they will find them. If they were looking for harmony and truth they would also find that. It's a mirror of our own mind's state.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

There was a preacher on TV the other day that was discussing prophecy and he made an obvious point that I had never realized before... When Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" just before He died, what He was really saying is that He was the fullfilment of Psalm 22.

This assumes that Psalms 22 was a prophesy...

Back in those times they didn't have Bibles with numbered chapters and verses, so a passage of scripture would have been known by the first part of it. In much the same way that we know Hymns by their first part (Amazing Grace, etc) rather than by a number. So basically Jesus is telling everyone to read Psalm 22.

Yes he appears to be citing Psalms 22.

I initially was thinking that the theory is pretty solid, and then when I looked up the passage in Matthew, the NIV version actually shows Psalm 22 as a reference to Jesus' words. So it went from "that's plausible" to "how could I have missed that?"

It seems so obvious I don't know why I didn't catch on to it earlier, but in case anyone else hadn't I thought I'd share. Psalm 22 as it turns out is about Jesus suffering, being killed, and then delivering humanity to God. The preacher pointed out that it's interesting how the Psalm states that Jesus' "hands and feet are pierced" when in fact crucifixion as a form of capital punishment would not have been around in David's time.

Peirced as in mangled by the bites of dogs. You need to read the original hebrew, you may be reading too much into it.

[Swamper]

The piercing mentioned in that text and others is a reference to what actually caused Christ's death - the piercing of the soldier's spear into his side. Christ did not die of asphyxiation. If he had he would have been considered an unfit or unworthy sacrifice according to the law.

The Bible says that Jesus was already dead when the soldier pierced His side. Besides, the psalm mentions the piercing of the hands and feet, not the side (though I suppose this could be a translation issue).

The Father did hear Him, and turned His back on Him. He raised Himself from the dead, after preaching in hades for three days.

Where's the scriptural evidence that Jesus was in Hell? It seems more likely that this is a mistranslation and Jesus was simply dead in his grave for three days (there are several words translated as "hell" in the Bible, one simply referring to the grave, which is something that seems to cause confusion to no end).

[FFC]

Where's the scriptural evidence that Jesus was in Hell? It seems more likely that this is a mistranslation and Jesus was simply dead in his grave for three days (there are several words translated as "hell" in the Bible, one simply referring to the grave, which is something that seems to cause confusion to no end).

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Lexicon Results for hades (Strong's 86)
Greek for 86

Pronunciation Guide
hades {hah'-dace}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:146,22 from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492
Part of Speech
n pr loc
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
++++
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.

Where did He go when He presched to the spirits in prison?


1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

[Turgonian]

This assumes that Psalms 22 was a prophesy...

No, it doesn't. Jewish writers (including the Gospel writers) often cited OT texts 'out of context' as we would say now, to give them a deeper spiritual significance. This was not a dishonest practice, but something called midrash typology.

The piercing mentioned in that text and others is a reference to what actually caused Christ's death - the piercing of the soldier's spear into his side. Christ did not die of asphyxiation. If he had he would have been considered an unfit or unworthy sacrifice according to the law.

No, the water coming out was probably a sign that he was already dead. Quoting from here (note: the 'nonsense' refers to the theory that Jesus did not die at all on the cross):

There is only one circumstance which fits both the story as given and medical science. That is the one where a patient has died and the blood in his heart has pooled long enough to fractionate into packed cells and serum. A spear thrust into the heart would allow these fluids to pour out with exactly the appearance recorded. We should note that such a patient would be DEAD.

One alternate has been proposed with some plausibility. That one states that Jesus' trials led to the accumulation of a pleural effusion. The spear then allowed that water to flow out. But such a circumstance would not lead to blood flowing out as described. That would require the spear to penetrate the heart. Again, the patient would be DEAD. Even this very unlikely scenario requires the patient to be dead, and the rest of [the] arguments are therefore nonsense.

And finally...

Where did He go when He preached to the spirits in prison?

I will quote from an article against the Mormon doctrine of 'divine perseverance', which presumes to answer that question...

Did Christ not also preach to those who lived between Noah and his own time that had died? If so, why does the verse not say so? Why are those of Noah's time specifically mentioned if this was a message to all who had died prior to Christ? It will not do to say that Peter was simply specifying one group out of many that were preached to; this is merely begging the question, even if (as Marshall tells us -- Mars.1P, 126) that the generation of Noah was noted proverbially for its wickedness. Why just the generation of Noah, and not, for example, Sodom and Gomorrah's inhabitants? Was the generation of Noah randomly selected here by Peter? We should try to find a more secure context for this passage, and this leads to the first important question:

Who are these "spirits"? LDS apologists of course assume that these are the spirits of men, but the word "spirit" is also used in Jewish and Christian literature to refer to supernatural beings and especially evil spirits (e.g., Mark 1:23, 26, 27; Tobit 6:6; 2 Macc. 3:24). Note also that the passage refers to "the spirits who disobeyed," not to "the spirits of those who disobeyed," suggesting strongly that these critters are spirits by nature and always were. [Kist.PJ, 142] Combined with the limitation to the days of Noah described above, it is possible to anchor this passage in another well-known account, this one from the apocryphal book of 1 Enoch.

1 Enoch includes an account of the "sons of God" who came among the daughters of men and corrupted the human race, based on Gen. 6:1-4 (cf. Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4). These "sons of God" are variously named as angels, watchers, and in one place as "spirits" and Enoch is sent to tell them that they are out of luck (1 Enoch 12:4, 15:8):

And they said to me, "Enoch, son of righteousness, go and make known to the Watchers of heaven who have abandoned the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women..."

But now the giants who are born from spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth.

This book also notes that certain angels were "bound" and thrown into a "prison house" (1 Enoch 10:4-6, 12-14, 13:1, etc.) Thus the "spirits in prison" are to be identified with these referred to in 1 Enoch, and Peter is either relating that Christ took up in reality what Enoch had done fictionally, or else is using this account typologically "to depict dramatically Christ's victory over evil." [Mars.1P, 129] (Michaels, it should be indicated, refers to these as "spirits in refuge" and believes that the reference is not to the sinning angels, but to their demonic offspring. His reasons for making this identification are not compelling, but this obviously no more agrees with the LDS view than ours does.)

[puritan lad]

FFC,

Those are some difficult Scriptures, and I think you have misinterpreted them. Let me ask you.

Do you think Jesus actually went on a "missions trip" to Hell? How does that square with His words to the dying thief in Luke 23:43?

While Hades certainly means Hell in some usages, such as Luke 16:23, it can also mean "grave". Given the context of Acts 2:27 with "corruption", I believe that "grave" is the correct translation here.

As far as 1 Peter 3:19 goes, it doesn't say that Christ preached to the spirits while they were in prison. It says He went (past tense) and proclaimed (past tense) to the spirits in prison (present tense). Verse 20 seems to bear that out, "because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water". What did they formerly not obey? I hold that it was the preaching of Christ (via Noah).

[FFC]

Do you think Jesus actually went on a "missions trip" to Hell? How does that square with His words to the dying thief in Luke 23:43?

I wouldn't say a "mission trip", more of a "setting the captive free" trip with some orientation involved.

This is how I see it, but I'm willing to be set straight.

Jesus told His disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them. John 14. Before Christ died and paid the penality for sin there was no place in heaven for the dead. When Jesus told the Thief that he would be with Him in paradise today he was right...the thief was in paradise with Jesus when Jesus entered to set the captives free in Abrahams bosom aka Paradise...which was a compartment in hell but separated from the torment part of hell. Jesus gave us a good picture of it in Luke.

Of course now that Jesus has ascended and taken his rightful place at God's right hand, "Paradise" is with Him for all who believe in His name.