Puritan Lad's Response

[FFC]

Very good, PL. Thorough as usual.

[B. W.]

Hello all,

Sorry for the delay getting back to thread - time is approaching the one year anniversary of my wife's father's passing away on September 25, 2005. My wife is having a difficult time as well as her mother as the date closes in. I have been dealing with these issues as well as work. As soon as I can, I will repost what I can on thread…

God Bless!!

[B. W.]

Jac and B.W.

Two more questions that I'm addressing, and would like to get your responses on before I proceed.

1.) Are angels predestined? Do they have free will? (B.W. has already addressed this, but I would like to give him the opportunity to clarify his stance.)

2.) Can we sin in heaven? Will we still have "free will", or we will be "spiritual robots"?

I'll bring up more as I write this...

God Bless,

PL

PL, I think the Barber illustration answers these questions rather well.

What is more sovereign - ruling based solely on pure determinism alone or ruling all possibilities and contingencies based on who you are, your nature, character, and wisdom?

Next point,

It is unfortunate that the western Church was so heavily influenced by the Greek philosophers. The Greek philosophers' concept of Fate and Destiny are now thoroughly incorporated into western Christian tradition.

Think on it for a moment and ponder its implications. As soon as I finish reading PL's quotes, I'll post more.

What I have read so far indicates a heavy influence of ancient pre-Christian Greek philosophy in terms of Fate and Destiny. Maybe Jac can elaborate more on this as I need to tend to Family issues coming up regarding the one year anniversary of my wife's father's passing away.

Let me add further that one reason I have stated that 'Renaissance era' doctrine regarding determinism's predestination is a doctrine of men because it can be linked to the ancient Greek philosophers.

Also, if you will note that that era's concept of sovereignty is also tied in with justifying the “Divine Right of Kings” practiced during that time - Again, this is interesting to note.

One more point to also note is an inability to acknowledge what God can act like, how God should be, and govern how ever God so chooses. The determinist deny that God can possibly govern in any other manner unless approved by their interpretation of scripture. Defending God — the deny God's total sovereignty. This form is thought is tied directly to the ancient pre-Christian Greek philosophy terms of Fate and Destiny.

I'll finish reading PL's post but so far — I see ancient pre-Christian Greek philosophy in action within the words quoted.

Remember: God is not an ancient pre-Christian Greek philosopher, nor bound to it.
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[B. W.]

The Myth of Libertarian Free Will (and objections answered)

Man's will is no cure for the sinful nature, but is instead the cause. Man's will has been corrupted by the Fall, and therefore, must be redeemed along with the rest off our wicked selves. Even the most basic philosopher quickly learns that man's will is neither libertarian nor autonomous. It is a secondary entity which depends on many things. The very definition is a rational person is one whose will is under the control of reason and rational thinking. To be "free" from such would make one insane. Wills are controlled by emotions, love, hate, anger, sadness, etc. Diseases can affect wills. Drug addicts "freely" partake in the substance that enslaves them, a perfect illustration of man's willing slavery to sin, but slavery nonetheless. Every part of man has been spiritually killed by the fall. He is totally depraved, and will be condemned forever unless God intervene on His behalf. For, "he that believeth not, is condemned already..." (John 3:18).

The weak "free will" philosophy has taken over modern evangelism. Instead of preaching "Good News", we have limited ourselves to "good advice". We plead for men to come to a begging Christ, who is standing on the sidelines just hoping that the wicked sinner can muster up enough faith of his own resources to let Jesus save him. Oddly enough, most Christians who preach this doctrine won't hesitate to pray for God to "save" lost loved ones, even though they teach that " God is a gentleman, who will never violate our free-will" (see Psalm 33:10-12). As John Owen pointed out in his chapter "The Idol of Free-will", man's will is not "free" until the Son makes him free. (John 8:36). Man's will is free only in the sense that he does what he wants to do...

How can man's will be free regarding what you have stated below? Also, no one that I can tell involved responding to you is teaching that man can beg his way into heaven or that God is a slave to human free will. Contrary, I wrote that God does Violate human free will everyday. If God did not - no one could be saved.

Isaiah tells us that God "hast wrought all our works for us." (Isaiah 26:12). With regard to the continued attempt to deify man's will, Stephen Charnock asks, "But what if the foreknowledge of God, and the liberty of the will cannot be reconciled by man? Shall we therefore deny a perfection in God to support a liberty in ourselves? Shall we rather fasten ignorance upon God, and accuse Him of blindness to maintain our liberty?"

The fact that God predestines all the works of man is offensive to the rebellious human heart, but cannot be denied from the Scriptures. God decrees and wills all things that have been and will ever be, “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10). God controls the steps (Jer. 10:23) and words of man (Prov. 16:1) as well as heart of a king (Prov. 21:1). In God “we live, and move, and have our being,” (Acts 17:28). He "upholds all things by the word of his power,” (Heb. 1:3), that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of his Father (Matt. 10:29). God fashioned the days of man, before they ever existed (Psalm 139:16). This is the God of the Bible, not the poor helpless being who sits on some distant throne hoping that His people will use their "free will" and let Him save them.

How does God decrees and work in the sinful acts of wicked men without being the author of sin (James 1:13)? The answer is that God does not force man to sin. He doesn't have to. While "in Him is no darkness" (1 John 1:5), man has enough sin in himself to accomplish all the evil that God could ever decree, for when a person sins, "each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death." (James 1:14-15). All God has to do is withhold grace, and "[deliver] them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient..." (Romans 1:28). This is what man's "free will" profits him. While God Himself is not the tempter, but He does send evil and lying Spirits to accomplish these acts (See 1 Kings 22:19-23; 1 Sam 16:14-23, 1 Sam 18:10, 1 Sam 19:9). God is said to "lay a stumbling block to make men fall" (Romans 9:33) and "send strong delusion, that they should believe lies," (2 These. 2:11). It is God alone who "hast set them in slippery places, and cast them down into desolation. How suddenly are they destroyed, perished and horribly consumed..." (Psalm 73:18-19). Thus, God can decree even man's evil deeds, and work to bring them to pass, yet man's sin remains man's own, and he is fully responsible for them.

2.) How does a god who does all things according to his good pleasure take pleasure in creating people, engineering their decision to make the wrong choice regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thereby causing sin and spiritual death to come into the world, resulting in his picking some of these people to be saved and the rest going to hell...which was all his predetermined plan?....

So you are stating that God engineers human decisions to make the wrong choices. Hence the Drug addict is not responsible for his act as every act of man is decreed of God therefore God does not force man to sin yet he direct our steps? Man has enough sin in himself yet who put it there if what you say below is true?

The fact that God predestines all the works of man is offensive to the rebellious human heart, but cannot be denied from the Scriptures. God decrees and wills all things that have been and will ever be, “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10). God controls the steps (Jer. 10:23) and words of man (Prov. 16:1) as well as heart of a king (Prov. 21:1). In God “we live, and move, and have our being,” (Acts 17:28). He "upholds all things by the word of his power,” (Heb. 1:3), that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of his Father (Matt. 10:29). God fashioned the days of man, before they ever existed (Psalm 139:16)...

Irreconcilable Contradiction - is it not?

That's a good question. The short answer is, “I don't know”. The Bible never tells why God predestines the sinful acts of the wicked, nor does it tell us on what basis He predestines and elects. Mountains of scholarly ink have been wasted in an effort to describe the secret things that belong to the Lord (Deut. 29:29).. All we know for sure, according to the Scriptures, is that God does predestine, and that He does so independent of man's choices (for He did so before man ever had a choice). Romans 9:23 gives us a possible glimpse as to why God creates “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”, “that he might declare the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory”. This seems to be validated in His words to Pharaoh, “"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17). In the end, God has one main goal and purpose, and that is to glorify Himself. God gets glory out of the salvation of His people, and He gets glory out of the destruction of the wicked. Calvinism is a thoroughly God-Centered theology which strips man of everything, allowing him to take glory in nothing. Everything that happens is part of God's predetermined plan, including our trials and tragedies. David Chilton explains, "The Biblical doctrine of predestination, when rightly understood, should not be a source of fear for the Christian; rather, it is a source of comfort and assurance. The opposite of the doctrine of predestination is not freedom, but meaninglessness; if the smallest details of our lives are not part of the Plan of God, if they are not created facts with a divinely determined significance, then they can have no meaning at all. They cannot be "working together for good." But the Christian who understands the truth of God's sovereignty is assured thereby that nothing in his life is without meaning and purpose — that God has ordained all things for His glory and for our ultimate good. This means that even our sufferings are part of a consistent Plan; that when we are opposed, we need not fear that God has abandoned us. We can be secure in the knowledge that, since we have been "called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28), all things in our life are a necessary aspect of that purpose. Martin Luther said: "It is, then, fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. . . . For the Christian's chief and only comfort in adversity lies in knowing that God does not lie, but brings all things to pass immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, altered or impeded".

So according to your position - it has just proved that God is the author of sin and evil and thus causes God to deny all that he is. Any who points out the error of your doctrine is shouted as a wast of time and effort to silence your critics... Hmm... Not so...

My hypotheses stands - God calls - if he did not - all humanity remains lost. God calls - now there is hope offered to humanity through the work of Christ alone. The Gospel is that simple. God knows who are his and who are not because he is God and knows all, sees all, and controls all things according to His will - which is defined and governed by his nature, character, and wisdom - this the bible teaches, even from every scriptures you quoted.

Ancient Greek and Roman Philosophic notions of destiny and fate are interwoven within determinisms' doctrine and its use of the scriptures.
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[puritan lad]

B.W.,

Do you have any scriptural objections? I haven't seen any Scriptures in your posts for a while, just tired arguments that have already been refuted. I do not base anything on "fate" or Greek Philosophy. Sola Scriptura.

Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren? If what you say is true, then it would be entirely possible for the precious blood of Jesus to have saved no one. Christ could have died in vain, unless His death was actually a purposeful means to a purposeful end, that end being the actual salvation of His elect, not a possible salvation, a mere "ointment in a box" that becomes effective when applied by someone of their own virtuous resources. (More on this in the upcoming atonement piece.)

And you still haven't answered any if my questions yet. I'll settle for just one.

Did God do Absalom's incest openly before all Israel and before the sun? (2 Samuel 12:11-12)

For some reason, Christians today cannot come to grips with the fact that God is sovereign over the sinful acts of wicked men, despite the mountains of scriptural evidence.

[FFC]

Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren?

Because God is outside of time and space and sees everything from the beginning to the end. God is working in the lives of all his creatures everyday. He didn't just make a plan and then sit back and watch how it turns out. The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving.

If what you say is true, then it would be entirely possible for the precious blood of Jesus to have saved no one.

The precious blood as promised will save all who believe in Him.


PL, On a side note, I've finally gotten through book I of Owens book. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I really can see how you believe what you do. I am just not convinced yet that God is the author of Salvation as well as sin. Bear with me and know that I am not attacking your beliefs, just questioning...sometimes in the form of statements.

God bless

[Canuckster1127]

Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren?

Because God is outside of time and space and sees everything from the beginning to the end. God is working in the lives of all his creatures everyday. He didn't just make a plan and then sit back and watch how it turns out. The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving.

If what you say is true, then it would be entirely possible for the precious blood of Jesus to have saved no one.

The precious blood as promised will save all who believe in Him.


PL, On a side note, I've finally gotten through book I of Owens book. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I really can see how you believe what you do. I am just not convinced yet that God is the author of Salvation as well as sin. Bear with me and know that I am not attacking your beliefs, just questioning...sometimes in the form of statements.

God bless

It is inescapable that God at the very least by allowance is responsible for sin. Omnipotence does not allow for any form of dualism. The one who has the power to eliminate or prevent evil and allows it to remain, is by definition responsible for it.

The question in my mind, is can human theology account for all that implies by means of systematic theology. I don't believe it ultimately can. At some point, you have to step back, and state "I don't know and I can't make it all fit together perfectly." At some point, you have to acknowledge that God is infinite and cannot be completely explained and completely grasped by logic or the human mind. Scripture itself affirms this in many places.

The question is, at what point do you make that assertion and embrace an element of mystery by faith? Extremes exist at either end of the spectrum which carry their own dangers and excesses.

That, in my opinion, is really the underlying issue in the tension between Sovereignty and Free Will. On some issues they are mutually exclusive and must be.

It's not enough to simply proof-text concepts and build a framework. There has to be an underlying hermeneutic that eminates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself.

That's where I am on it anyway. It is not a particularly satisfying answer for many and there is a danger that standing on mystery can become a crutch to avoid what Scripture does reveal in this area that is within our grasp and should be wrestled with.

[Gman]

The question is, at what point do you make that assertion and embrace an element of mystery by faith? Extremes exist at either end of the spectrum which carry their own dangers and excesses.

That, in my opinion, is really the underlying issue in the tension between Sovereignty and Free Will. On some issues they are mutually exclusive and must be.

It's not enough to simply proof-text concepts and build a framework. There has to be an underlying hermeneutic that eminates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself.

That's where I am on it anyway. It is not a particularly satisfying answer for many and there is a danger that standing on mystery can become a crutch to avoid what Scripture does reveal in this area that is within our grasp and should be wrestled with.

Yes Bart... well said... That is the million dollar question. Athough I'm not a direct fan of mystery, is it a cop out to say that we really don't know sometimes or does it impede our direct understanding of certain Biblical truths?

[Canuckster1127]

The question is, at what point do you make that assertion and embrace an element of mystery by faith? Extremes exist at either end of the spectrum which carry their own dangers and excesses.

That, in my opinion, is really the underlying issue in the tension between Sovereignty and Free Will. On some issues they are mutually exclusive and must be.

It's not enough to simply proof-text concepts and build a framework. There has to be an underlying hermeneutic that eminates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself.

That's where I am on it anyway. It is not a particularly satisfying answer for many and there is a danger that standing on mystery can become a crutch to avoid what Scripture does reveal in this area that is within our grasp and should be wrestled with.

Yes Bart... well said... That is the million dollar question. Athough I'm not a direct fan of mystery, is it a cop out to say that we really don't know sometimes or does it impede our direct understanding of certain Biblical truths?

I think it is not a cop out at some point to say, "I don't know."

Intellectual belief has never saved anyone and never will.

In fact, ironically, I believe there comes a point where when we claim complete understanding of one immutable characteristic of God, and we elevate it that we are in danger of ceasing to place our faith in God and imagine our intellectual system, or systematized theology, has captured all of God that we need to know and understand. It is at that point, that we begin to introduce logical extremes and absurdities that elevate one particular element of God above all others and we get out of balance, in my opinion.

I think that is possible to do with the Sovereignty of God to some extent. I also think that is possible to do with free will.

That is why I think the entire framing of the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism asks the wrong questions, and in doing so, comes up with some imbalanced answers.

[Gman]

Damm.. Yes, yes, yes.... Not to prop you up, but I think you ARE a true minister Bart... (now don't everybody laugh...).

G -

[B. W.]

Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren?

Because God is outside of time and space and sees everything from the beginning to the end. God is working in the lives of all his creatures everyday. He didn't just make a plan and then sit back and watch how it turns out. The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving.

If what you say is true, then it would be entirely possible for the precious blood of Jesus to have saved no one.

The precious blood as promised will save all who believe in Him.


PL, On a side note, I've finally gotten through book I of Owens book. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I really can see how you believe what you do. I am just not convinced yet that God is the author of Salvation as well as sin. Bear with me and know that I am not attacking your beliefs, just questioning...sometimes in the form of statements.

God bless

Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren?

The ancients did not define fate or destiny as blind or as acts of chance. These were deterministically caused and summed up in these statements…

Man's life and path is spun by the gods…

Fortune smiles upon you today…

Your fate is sealed by the gods oh Oedipus…

Determinism, both hard and soft, as used by some in Christendom state the same things by using proof text scriptures strung together without balanced and sound hermeneutical context. To attain a hermeneutic theme to prove their doctrine it is oft resorted to change the contextual meaning of bible text by use of multilayer definitions and terms — i.e. a common practice involved within the philosophic tradition of men. Cults also do this to the bible using proof text scriptures to bolster a particular point of view...

What is neglected is an understanding of who God is and what He is like and then asking, does what I believe line up with who God is as revealed within the pages of the Bible in a biblical hermeneutic fashion. This is possible and something God wants you to do: Seek Him.

That is the main thrust of my position.

PL, note that I am not an Armenian, nor do I hold their doctrine; so, PL, stop interpreting what I write with that Calvinism's attack dog fashion by only reading into what I write things I do not say or mean.

As for your questions, these were answered but when you only view someone as either of an Armenian or Calvinist and go into attack mode due solely to the misconception that all other views can only be of these two persuasion, no one can answer you.

You appear to me to only hear, see, and interpret the world according to a deterministic belief system — black and white. All I would end up doing is endless quoting the same scriptures you cite - right back to you — to no avail. This gets no place fast.

Canuckster1127 has the right idea as does FCC - use an underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself.

The way to find the truth of the bible is through an underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself.

If ones vision has been clouded by centuries of mans teaching about this subject and how they translate bible words and define them to support a set of doctrines a person can miss the simple hermeneutic that ties it all together.

I do not lay claim to knowing all the answer to the issues. I do see something neglected that is worth the time to study as it points something out that is simply overlooked - the Importance of God's call...
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[Gman]

Intellectual belief has never saved anyone and never will.

In fact, ironically, I believe there comes a point where when we claim complete understanding of one immutable characteristic of God, and we elevate it that we are in danger of ceasing to place our faith in God and imagine our intellectual system, or systematized theology, has captured all of God that we need to know and understand. It is at that point, that we begin to introduce logical extremes and absurdities that elevate one particular element of God above all others and we get out of balance, in my opinion.

Sorry to break in here again, but I think this is one of Bart's higher-beam shots... I just haven't heard it put this way in a long time... It certianly got my attention...

What are you using in that flashlight of yours Bart? Duracell or Energizer?

Anyways, please continue...

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[B. W.]

Because God is outside of time and space and sees everything from the beginning to the end. God is working in the lives of all his creatures everyday. He didn't just make a plan and then sit back and watch how it turns out. The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving...

It is inescapable that God at the very least by allowance is responsible for sin. Omnipotence does not allow for any form of dualism. The one who has the power to eliminate or prevent evil and allows it to remain, is by definition responsible for it.

The question in my mind, is can human theology account for all that implies by means of systematic theology. I don't believe it ultimately can. At some point, you have to step back, and state "I don't know and I can't make it all fit together perfectly." At some point, you have to acknowledge that God is infinite and cannot be completely explained and completely grasped by logic or the human mind. Scripture itself affirms this in many places.

The question is, at what point do you make that assertion and embrace an element of mystery by faith? Extremes exist at either end of the spectrum which carry their own dangers and excesses.

That, in my opinion, is really the underlying issue in the tension between Sovereignty and Free Will. On some issues they are mutually exclusive and must be.

It's not enough to simply proof-text concepts and build a framework. There has to be an underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself.

That's where I am on it anyway. It is not a particularly satisfying answer for many and there is a danger that standing on mystery can become a crutch to avoid what Scripture does reveal in this area that is within our grasp and should be wrestled with.

Yes, there actually is an underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself. It is quite simple, in fact very simple and glorifies God alone and not man. It is a mystery that is for sure. My challenge is to explore it further so you can, “grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Sadly, so many people have become so entrenched in their human philosophic views that they miss entirely what Paul is saying in Romans chapter 8-11. They miss the simple message and exchange it for the complex stringing together of proof text like a cult does.

The hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself is simply found in something that FCC pointed out:

Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son…The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving.

Also, as Canuckster1127 stated above — what is needed is an underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework of predestination and God's will concerning his design of human beings and 'free will.' There is such a hermeneutic.

Before continuing further I like to make it clear that I do not like the term 'Free Will' because it misrepresents Freedom and Will and grants both a fickle definition. I use it because others do. God gave man the capacity to independently think, reason, and exercise intelligence in order to do what we were designed to do.

This is not free will but rather the ability to be able to think and reason in a manner that can govern your surroundings and provide for your needs, etc. Out of the abundance of the heart comes all sorts of things Jesus tells us. The issues of life spring forth from the heart. As a man thinketh, so is he the bible teaches and declares.

Let's clarify terms then before proceeding further in exploration of this matter of mystery:

Free Will: the capacity to independently think, reason, and exercise intelligence…When I use this term — this is what I mean by it. The bible teaches us that God made us with intelligence and likes to reason with us. Stick with that.

Now what is your definition of Predestination?

Next what is your definition of God's Will?

When discussing this we need to know if we are speaking the same thing or not.

Next, do you really want to explore what is this simple underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself?

It is really simple and not that complex. There is no secret will, nor is there a known will involved, no compatiblism, no synergism, no Armenianism, no 1-2-3-4-5 point Calvinism ramblings involved, No soft or hard determinism, no interdeterminism, no fatalism and all their offspring — the answer is really simple. FCC opened your eyes to it in his excellent statements.

Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son….The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving

Here is the mysterious hermeneutic: Genesis1:1, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 65: 17-25, Isaiah 66:22, Revelations 21:1-4, Revelations 22:17, — all is tied into this flow The entire work of redemption is found within this hermeneutic and will plug into it and fit perfectly like that proverbial glove. All of whom God is and God does fit into this flow: Evan Romans chapter nine becomes clear. It is a mystery that God wants you alone to solve as you grow in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

First clue: God had a plan — it was preordained. What is it? Hint - FCC pointed it out!

Now, PL please do not get excited and jump the gun and start saying this proves Calvinism's determinism that God made the elect and non-elect according to pure determinism. You'll miss the Hermeneutic and get lost in the doctrines of men. You'll end up glorying Calvinism's determinism and sing its praise, as you are and have been doing so far, and thus keep neglecting the Glory due to God. Calvinism's determinism robs God the glory due his name, character, and wisdom.

Calvinism's determinism distorts God's sovereignty while attempting to honor it. It ascribes to God to behave contrary to his nature and purpose that he predestined. It misrepresents God's wisdom in carrying out his plans. It makes God the father of sin, lies, and death. The bible teaches what about God?

More Clues: Deuteronomy 32:1-4 and Job 34:10-33. Determinism cannot honor God as it only convicts God of gross misconduct. God will not deny himself.

God had a predestined plan — it is simple and effective. [Bible]Romans 8:19-30 sticks with the underlying hermeneutic of Genesis1:1, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 65: 17-25, Isaiah 66:22, Revelations 21:1-4, Revelations 22:17. Calvinism's Determinism does not.

God's plan involved God calling out to humanity and showing mercy when none was deserved.

What is the plan? Does it line up with God's nature, character, and wisdom without pointless twisting of text and words and new jargon to explain complexity? The simplicity of the gospel plan remains true to God's will or it does not.

What is God's will?

Take a deep breath pause and heed every the word of 2 Peter 3:8-18 well and “Grow in the knowledge of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the Glory both now and forever!” NKJV

The Bible tells to grow in the 'grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.' Not Calvinism, Not Armenianism, Not mine — but in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Hmmm — wonder what Peter meant by this? Even the context of what is quoted from 2 Peter fits the underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself concerning this matter. Interesting????
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[Canuckster1127]

I don't want to get too deep in this thread because it's not my purpose to derail it.

It seems to me though, that it only fair that I present and proof text what I'm saying rather than just sniping from the side so here goes.

First, here's the Athanasian Creed. Pay attention to the portions that speak of the incomprehensible nature of God.

http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

Athanasian Creed

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1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

More next, but this is pointing toward the mystery of God. The very essense of the Trinity is shrouded beyond our ability to completely grasp. Those limits are both in the limits of human language and human finite mental capacity and experience to grasp completely even the basic nature of God.

In view of that, we should expect that there will be conflicts and apparent contradictions.

The question is, are we to attempt to resolve those contradictions to our own level of understanding or does the very process of our doing that, ensure that what we come up with will be wrong?

My view is that Scripture clearly does teach that God knows who will be saved:

Romans 8:29

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

1 Peter 1:2

2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Ephesians 1:4 tells us that God chose us “before the foundation of the world.”

The Bible repeatedly describes believers as the “chosen” (Romans 8:33; 11:5; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2; 2:9)

and the “elect” (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 11:7; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1).

The fact that believers are predestined (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, 11) and elected (Romans 9:11; 11:28; 2 Peter 1:10) for salvation is clear.

But the Bible also says we that we have free will and choice and indicates that such a choice comes before salvation. (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10).

So we have these three Biblically taught and true things.

1. God knows who will be saved.
2. God chooses who will be saved.
3. We must choose Christ in order to be saved.

It's not a mistake by any measure that much of the core passages in Romans dealing with this end with this doxology.

Romans 11:33-36

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[a] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[c]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

a Romans 11:33 Or riches and the wisdom and the
b Romans 11:34 Isaiah 40:13
c Romans 11:35 Job 41:11

I treat this question, the same way that I treat the Trinity. It is buried in the mind, nature and person of God.

I have a choice in terms of what I do with this,

I can pick one concept over the other and wrestle with ways to try to attempt to show why the passages that clearly say otherwise must be misunderstood. In doing that, I may well be elevating my need for logical consistency over God's Word.

I can reject both and claim that because God does not conform with my expectations as to what should be logical, that there is no God here worth serving. I've never understood this personally. I prefer to believe God is smarter and bigger than I am.

Or, I can accept that all these things come into play in a manner that I likely cannot understand because some of it ties into the very person of God himself, who is infinite, and because I am finite, there will be parts I have to simply accept the mystery and place my faith in God.

There it is. Hope it helps.

[Gman]

Sweeeeeet... Thanks Bart!!


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