Abortion - life begins when . . . ?

[Anonymous]

I advocate that there are two important features required to make a human infinitely valuable. The first is "life," and if something grows and develops or has a continued flow of existence, then I believe we have life. The second is what kind of life we're talking about. If the unborn are human, as I believe they are biogically based on their own unique genetic code within each of their cells, then human + life = human life.

But each living human cell is not an individual human life. Unique DNA is not a qualification for a human life either, as idencial twins are obviously two individual organisms who share the same DNA. A chimeric person is a single person who has two sets of DNA. Yet, they are one inidvidual organism.

An organism does not exist as an organism until it fits all the qualifications for life as an organism. So while you place two conditions, well, really so do I. A human life would have human dna and it has to be an organism. If it is not an organism then it is not human.

Now people (such as vajaradakini) might make further distinctions on what it is about human life that makes someone valuable (or makes them "persons" or a "human being"), but I believe human life is intrinsically valuable because it is human. Therefore I classify these two aspects ("life" and "human") as qualities that make an entity infinitely valuable, and so worth protecting.

Now, you do me a great injustice by acting like I'm some sort of nazi who presumes that the mentally challenged are subhuman, you do realise, right?

[Kurieuo]

An organism does not exist as an organism until it fits all the qualifications for life as an organism. So while you place two conditions, well, really so do I. A human life would have human dna and it has to be an organism. If it is not an organism then it is not human.

And I believe the entity formed after conception, qualifies under any biological definition as life, and not just life but "human" life. Science appears to me on my side here:

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
Larsen, W.J. 1998. Essentials of Human Embryology, Churchill Livingstone, New York, pp. 1-17.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments...  The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book." (p. 55)."
O'Rahilly, R. and F. Muller. 1996. Human Embryology & Teratology, Wiley-Liss, New York, pp. 5-55.

Infact, a dictionary definition of an abortion is "An aborted organism." A definition of organism is "An individual form of life." But you already understand the latter is life, so I perhaps needed not have stated that.

Now people (such as vajaradakini) might make further distinctions on what it is about human life that makes someone valuable (or makes them "persons" or a "human being"), but I believe human life is intrinsically valuable because it is human. Therefore I classify these two aspects ("life" and "human") as qualities that make an entity infinitely valuable, and so worth protecting.

Now, you do me a great injustice by acting like I'm some sort of nazi who presumes that the mentally challenged are subhuman, you do realise, right?

Actually I'm just performing a little philosophy, and taking your reasoning to its logical conclusion. If "humanness" is based on intellect, than those who have lower IQ or are mentally challenged are infact less human. If you disagree with this, then I encourage you to rethink why brain activity matters. To me such a statement is on par to blacks not being persons due to the colour of their skin, which is what some once said. I see no reason to discriminate against certain forms of human life in the way you have.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

vajaradakini: At any rate, your insistance on the discussion of value of life has nothing to do with the initial thread topic which is when life begins. I'm not sure how kindly people here take to hijacking threads, I know some places that don't like it when people do so and being new, I do not wish to step on any toes. I also see your insistance on putting value on each life to be rather silly as it is rather subjective.

Since I started this thread, I do appreciate your care in trying to stay on topic. I also am new to the board, and I also prefer not to step on toes. A nice respectful discourse is so much more productive. For this particular thread, I do believe that the value of life is a valid and crucial aspect to introduce to the conversation. To me it is a critical aspect of humanness. We are not plants, or other non-human lifeforms sitting here discussing things, wondering at the world and life. I work daily with plants -- I have no compunction about damaging one although I try not to for aesthtics and disease issues. I have even been known to rip a plant out of the ground if it fails to perform as expected or desired. But I take care not to do harm to other creatures and specifically I care more for the safety of humans. I hit and killed a neighbors dog recently. I was devastated, quite torn up about it as was the neighbor. He has another dog, I drive quite slowly and carefully past his house now (very rural area, hence free running animals). However if that had been a human, a child even more so, I'd probably give up driving all together and require excessive counseling. We really mustn't remove our concern for each other and our value of human life from the debate. Why else debate the points at all? You are concerned about stepping on the proverbial toes . . . why shouldn't all human life that has been conceived (and not been washed out due to nature) be allowed to keep theirs?

Are identical twins one person then?
Identical twins to not split until a week or so after conceived

I'm not a scientist so I posit this question: Do we know everything there is to know about DNA? If yes, how do we know that we know everything there is to know? Could there possibly some marker, or combinations of markers, that cause the split so that twins were preordained at fertilization? Hmmm, I guess that is a stupid question. My daughter is determined to marry a man who "has twins or triplets running in his family". Twinning is written into the DNA, and at fertilization, well before the split, they are two individuals who are just in need of a bit more development to display their individuality to our intelligent and curious minds.

and a chimeric embryo can be formed after sex differntiation.
Is a chimeric person two?
(Chimera is when two ovum, embryo et c merge into one, thus a single person is the product of two eggs and two sperm)

I had to try to look that one up, but have limited time to delve into it further right now. So far what I've seen are numerous references to the mythological creature, a monster, a dream, an unreachable idea/ideal, etc and one reference to "an individual, organ, or part consisting of tissues of diverse genetic constitution" -- quite a vague description to say the least. I've not accessed the proper medical texts yet, obviously. From what I can assess at this point, aren't most chimera genetically manipulated by humans (tiger and lion = tigon, etc)? In how many cases does it occur naturally in humans? Is it a mutation? I'm not being factitious, I really don't know. I will still research it myself, but if you'd care to explain I'd also like to see your definition of the term chimera and the circumstances you believe causes it.

Finally, why is it that more than half of all life is terminated before pregnancy even begins?

Could you please expand/explain this question? Are you referring to unfertilized ovum, or unused sperm? My answer, based on how I read your question: Pregnancy begins at conception no matter what happens to the fertilized egg afterwards. An unfertilized egg or unused sperm does not constitute a life. Thus no termination of life.

But each living human cell is not an individual human life.

See my above

Unique DNA is not a qualification for a human life either, as idencial twins are obviously two individual organisms who share the same DNA.

See my above

A chimeric person is a single person who has two sets of DNA. Yet, they are one inidvidual organism.

See my above

[Anonymous]

Do any of you personally know a woman who has had an abortion?

I do.

Would you care to share what you know about her? I'm interested in knowing her reasons for her abortion, how long ago, age, her lifestyle, and her feelings about it now.

I know it seems off topic, but I have a reason for not making this a new topic. It will eventually tie in. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

And I believe the entity formed after conception, qualifies under any biological definition as life, and not just life but "human" life. Science appears to me on my side here:

Science is not dogmatic, there are disagreements on various issues in the scientific community. It is silly to say that "science" is on your side when what you mean is that some scientists are on your side.

Infact, a dictionary definition of an abortion is "An aborted organism." A definition of organism is "An individual form of life." But you already understand the latter is life, so I perhaps needed not have stated that.

The dictionary also defines marriage as being between two consenting adult persons and life as being from birth to death.

Actually I'm just performing a little philosophy, and taking your reasoning to its logical conclusion. If "humanness" is based on intellect, than those who have lower IQ or are mentally challenged are infact less human. If you disagree with this, then I encourage you to rethink why brain activity matters. To me such a statement is on par to blacks not being persons due to the colour of their skin, which is what some once said. I see no reason to discriminate against certain forms of human life in the way you have.

When did I ever say that humanness was based on intellect? lol. That is ludicrous. Any human that surves for a significant amount of time outside the womb has more than a brain stem, which is what the brainwaves you refer to are from so early on. There is no stimulus response as an organism, thus no organism, no matter what your dictionary says...

MOTION -- does it seem to move under its own power? Does it move
with some discernible purpose? (Toward food, away from heat, etc)

REPRODUCTION -- does it have some way of making more of itself,
either through sexual reproduction or by budding or fissioning in
some way?

CONSUMPTION -- does it eat or drink? Does it take in nutrients
in one way or another in order to survive, grow, and eventually
multiply?

GROWTH -- does the organism develop over time, increase in
complexity, until it reaches a mature stage?

STIMULUS RESPONSE -- does the organism respond to external
stimuli, i.e. has a nervous system of some sort to detect
external conditions?

[Anonymous]

Would you care to share what you know about her? I'm interested in knowing her reasons for her abortion, how long ago, age, her lifestyle, and her feelings about it now.

I know it seems off topic, but I have a reason for not making this a new topic. It will eventually tie in. Thank you.

She's my age and was my roommate in first year (so 19 at the time). She had an abortion because she felt embarassed about obtaining a condom from anyone on our floor and went and had unprotected sex (very stupid of her) She looked into adoption, deceided she couldn't do it (financially, emotionally), was going rather insane quite frankly (let's just say it was interesting living with her...) and she deceided she had to have an abortion (which didn't seem pleasant either, she was bedridden for a week) She also went on the pill just after having it done so it would not be a problem in the future. As for lifetsyle, well typical university student mostly, drinking, studying eating unhealthy food, she smoked at the time too thogh she's quit since she goes to the gym a lot too to the point where she was having health problems due to overexercising. I haven't asked how she feels about it now, but she seems rather content in general.

[Anonymous]

Would you care to share what you know about her? I'm interested in knowing her reasons for her abortion, how long ago, age, her lifestyle, and her feelings about it now.

I know it seems off topic, but I have a reason for not making this a new topic. It will eventually tie in. Thank you.

She's my age and was my roommate in first year (so 19 at the time). She had an abortion because she felt embarassed about obtaining a condom from anyone on our floor and went and had unprotected sex (very stupid of her) She looked into adoption, deceided she couldn't do it (financially, emotionally), was going rather insane quite frankly (let's just say it was interesting living with her...) and she deceided she had to have an abortion (which didn't seem pleasant either, she was bedridden for a week) She also went on the pill just after having it done so it would not be a problem in the future. As for lifetsyle, well typical university student mostly, drinking, studying eating unhealthy food, she smoked at the time too thogh she's quit since she goes to the gym a lot too to the point where she was having health problems due to overexercising. I haven't asked how she feels about it now, but she seems rather content in general.

So it's probably only been a few years or so? Do you still converse, or do you mostly just 'pass in the halls' so to speak? What are your majors? Med students?

[Anonymous]

So it's probably only been a few years or so? Do you still converse, or do you mostly just 'pass in the halls' so to speak? What are your majors? Med students?

What the...?

I dont' know why you would guess med students of all things.

She's in communication studies and i'm in physics. We talk here and there, not in the halls, as our classes tend to be on the opposite side of campus and she lives on camupus while i have moved off campus.

I think I see what you're digging for and so you know, there are women who are perfectly fine after getting abortions. I've spoken to a number online who may consider it a regretful position to have been placed in, but feel they made the right choice.

[Anonymous]

So it's probably only been a few years or so? Do you still converse, or do you mostly just 'pass in the halls' so to speak? What are your majors? Med students?

What the...?

I dont' know why you would guess med students of all things.

She's in communication studies and i'm in physics. We talk here and there, not in the halls, as our classes tend to be on the opposite side of campus and she lives on camupus while i have moved off campus.

I think I see what you're digging for and so you know, there are women who are perfectly fine after getting abortions. I've spoken to a number online who may consider it a regretful position to have been placed in, but feel they made the right choice.

Didn't mean to confuse you. I suppose I should have left off the "Med students?" but since I'm new on the board and most of the conversations I've popped into seem scientifically and medically oriented, so I made a rash assumption. I aplogize if I offended. Interesting majors, not deadend like some.

I'm sure you do see where I'm going. Yes, many women are fine with their decision to abort. Some are not. Some regret it immediately, some regret it late in life, some never do. That's the way people are. Since she's content with it and you are both still in school I figured hers was only a few years ago.

Thank you for sharing.

[Deborah]

Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.
This scripture tells us that God knew us before we were conceived. He had a plan for us from then. This is something to think about. If god have planned for every life before it occures then indeed at conception it is life, and if we are Christian then it is life from God.

[Anonymous]

I had to try to look that one up, but have limited time to delve into it further right now. So far what I've seen are numerous references to the mythological creature, a monster, a dream, an unreachable idea/ideal, etc and one reference to "an individual, organ, or part consisting of tissues of diverse genetic constitution" -- quite a vague description to say the least. I've not accessed the proper medical texts yet, obviously. From what I can assess at this point, aren't most chimera genetically manipulated by humans (tiger and lion = tigon, etc)? In how many cases does it occur naturally in humans? Is it a mutation? I'm not being factitious, I really don't know. I will still research it myself, but if you'd care to explain I'd also like to see your definition of the term chimera and the circumstances you believe causes it.

Human chimeras are naturally occuring as well, experimentation with human embryos in such a way isn't really encouraged.

Do you watch csi? There's an episode called bloodlines where there is a chimeric man who rapes and kills women and they don't catch him at first because the dna in his sex organs and blood is different from the dna in his mouth. There was a woman in england a while back who upon needing a kidney donation found out that she was not actually directly related to three of her four children.

Could you please expand/explain this question? Are you referring to unfertilized ovum, or unused sperm? My answer, based on how I read your question: Pregnancy begins at conception no matter what happens to the fertilized egg afterwards. An unfertilized egg or unused sperm does not constitute a life. Thus no termination of life.

I am referring to fertilized ovum which are naturally flushed through a woman's system without implantation (pregnancy does not begin until implantation) Often this has to do with the woman's life (say she works at a stressful job or drinks) so really, if you put the beginning of life at conception, then every sexually active woman is potentially guilty of manslaughter many times over without ever being pregnant. Or in teh cases of women who are pregnant without knowledge of it and miscarry because say, they had to move and spent a whole day lifting boxes and furniture.

[Anonymous]

Didn't mean to confuse you. I suppose I should have left off the "Med students?" but since I'm new on the board and most of the conversations I've popped into seem scientifically and medically oriented, so I made a rash assumption. I aplogize if I offended. Interesting majors, not deadend like some.

Oh, you didn't cause any offense at all. Don't worry about that, it just seems a rather odd assumption.

I'm sure you do see where I'm going. Yes, many women are fine with their decision to abort. Some are not. Some regret it immediately, some regret it late in life, some never do. That's the way people are. Since she's content with it and you are both still in school I figured hers was only a few years ago.

Some people also regret getting their hair cut or taking a job they realized later they didn't like or buying a car they end up hating... People regret lots of things they do.

[Anonymous]

Genesis 2:7
then the LORD GOD formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being. (NSRV)

Clearly one is not a living being until their first breath.

[Mastermind]

Genesis 2:7
then the LORD GOD formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being. (NSRV)

Clearly one is not a living being until their first breath.

This has been discussed to death. Here's a summary:

You're wrong.

[Anonymous]

This has been discussed to death. Here's a summary:

You're wrong.

... Right... because I disagree with the majority of the posters on here, I'm automatically wrong. Well, good to see that thinking for oneself is out of date and completely unnecessary.