Jesus and "original Sin"

[Christian2]

Can anyone convince me that Jesus taught "original sin" -- that all men have fallen because of the sin of Adam?

Thanks.

[FFC]

Can anyone convince me that Jesus taught "original sin" -- that all men have fallen because of the sin of Adam?

I'm not sure if I can convince you but Jesus did tell Nicodemus that if we believe in His son we will be saved and not perish, and also that those who don't believe are condemned already. It seems to be implied here:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[afriend]

Can anyone convince me that Jesus taught "original sin" -- that all men have fallen because of the sin of Adam?

Thanks.

Hopefully, I can convince you of more than that. That in fact, you have fallen because of your own sin. And that your sin, is the Same sin, by which Adam fell.

Now don't go jumping to any conclusions, my friend. It's just that, I believe, that Most people, do not even know what Adam's sin was. Or maybe they know what it was, but they do not know "how" they themselves, do commit this sin each and everyday.

I believe this, because I myself, am guilty of the same. Yet, for YEARS (i won't tell you how many), I "thought" as you do. As everybody does. That because of Adam, I am condemned. But that is not true! We are condemned by our Own sins. By our own Fears! Or rather, by our "acceptance" of fear.

Because you see my friend, that is, "how" sin takes us. Entering in *through our emotions*, evil spirits (if you will pardon my use of those two words), tempt us to Fear, and to Doubt, and to Disbelieve.

Have you ever read the story? And I mean, for your-Self, have you read it, without taking the word of someone else, as to what it says, or what it means? I did. Genesis 3 (paraphrased by me): But then the Serpent came! And he Tricked Eve, into believing that God had Tricked her! That in fact, He, God, was taking advantage her, and Oppressing her by keeping her, from that which would make her "equal" with GOD. The Fruit, of the tree, of knowledge, "of good and Evil".

Read it, and think about it my friend. For the Serpent had just convinced Eve, that God had LIED to her, (as she Now knew, that she would not die). And that He was Cheating her, (as He would keep this "knowledge" that would make her "like God", from her). And worst of all that, God Himself, was Evil, as He had "Betrayed her"! And she knew that this was true. As once, she had trusted Him. Even, "believed" in Him. Oooh, but not anymore! For now, with her *emotions* running high, she was becoming "Self"-conscious, Self-centered, and even, Self-Aware!

I'll let you take it from there as to, "What all would go through "your" mind, if you had just found out that you had been Raped by a Monster?" For in truth, this is exactly, what Eve now believed as her new found "self-awareness", would make her also aware, of just how Evil, God really is!

But don't take my word for it! Read it for yourself! And you will See, that it was at this point, when a "separation" occurred. For as Eve now knew, what she "thought" was the truth. She would separate herself from God, and God from herself, with these simple thoughts, "You mean, I'm not like god? No! I am Not like God. For GOD is High, and I am low. And I would Never have done to my child, that which HE has done to me."

Ok so maybe her "thoughts" are not written in the scripture; but let me ask you this. "What would you have thought, if the serpent had just come to you, and said; "Ye shall Not surely die! For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Be as the gods? Well now wait a minute!
You mean, I'm not like god?
You mean, God has deprived me?

You see what I mean my friend? There is More to reading the bible than just reading the bible. You have to BE THERE to See exactly what is going on. Eve and Adam, and even God; had been running around the garden all day, and Eve, had Never noticed any difference "before". She just simply "accepted god" for who and what he was. And herself, for who and what she was. Which, were "servants". Equal, in stature. Each serving and served, even as each served, and were serving. (Action, Reaction!)

Even Jesus said; "no man is above his master, but it is enough that he be equal with him." and, "he who would be master of all, let him be a servant to all." So you see, I'm not just making this stuff up. God is Not, some Pie in the Sky, "Supreme Being", that is So "Far Above" us that, there can be no reasoning with him! I mean, that's what Everybody believes. Especially the Muslims. And even the Jews as Moses would take them to See god but that, they in Fear said; "No, NO, Moses! YOU go see God. Then you can tell us what He said."

It is Fear then, that keeps us From god. And yes, the bible says that "love" conquers all fear but...

but, it's not quite that easy, is it? I mean, "What would people think if you told them that, "we Are, just like God?" Why, they would Laugh at you! Ridicule you! Curse you! And in all ways, Persecute you.

Enter, Adam! and the sin that takes us all!
"PRIDE!!!"

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (knowledge), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (profitable), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (Like God), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband ***with her***; and he did eat."

That's right my friend. Adam had been standing there the whole time. And with his friends, all now doing drugs (so to speak), ...well, what else could he do? Just say No?

Ok! So then tell me my friend; "How many times has a friend, girl friend, wife, husband or boy friend, urged you to do something that, you really didn't want to do, but that for *fear* of "persecution/repercussions", *You Did Eat*?

And when I say repercussions, know that I include, Yelling, Screaming, Crying, Throwing things, Violence in general, and even, "the loss of your friend".

Collapsing therefore under "Peer Pressure!!!"; Adam, became a victim of his own EGO!!!


Can I convince you that Jesus taught "that all men have fallen because of the sin of Adam?"

No. I cannot convince you of that. Because the truth is, all men have fallen because of their own sin, which is the SAME sin, of which Adam was guilty. Even "as" Adam, *Giving way to "societies" demands and expectations for us, we crumble under the pressure, and submit ourselves to hell and damnation*. Adam, was simply the first.

Nevertheless, as "the son can do nothing of himself, but that which he sees the father do, he doeth", the real question you need to answer is, "who's your daddy? Adam? or Jesus?" For if Adam, then like Adam you will be, and do. But if Jesus.............

[Kurieuo]

Can anyone convince me that Jesus taught "original sin" -- that all men have fallen because of the sin of Adam?

Thanks.

I am unsure of Jesus, but I do know we have a very individual perspective given a lot of us a modern-minded. Yet, take a look back at Genesis 1:26-27:

26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

This may initially look weak, but many accept it was both male and female God created in His image. As such the imago dei is seen having a strong social or relational quality. Given a social Trinitarian perspective of God (plurality within a unity), this makes further sense that it is humanity (plurality within a unity), and not simply an individual, who is made in God's image. Man and woman is even referred to as becoming an echad (Genesis 2:24) something reminscient of God in the Shema: "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deut 6:4)

Now extending this concept by way of family into the larger society, it is ultimately humankind (not "a human") who is created in God's image. Thus, by the same token, it is humankind (not "a human") who sinned against God. We have lost much of the communal aspect of humanity today, something which appears to be getting reclaimed in many theological circles, at least the ones I am familiar with. I am not sure how far I would personally go into a relational view, as I tend to believe some sort of individuality is retained, but it certainly is an interesting idea to reflect upon especially as an ecclesiology.

Kurieuo

[Judah]

I rather like an explanation that was written by Peter Kreeft, Professor of Philosophy, Boston College.

How are we to blame for what Adam and Eve did? We aren't; we are to blame for what we do. But what we do is conditioned by what they did, just as a baby who is born a drug addict because its mother took drugs during pregnancy, is condition by what its mother did.

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

Premodern thinkers, less individualistic than we, saw the human race as an organism, like a tree, not an anthill. Each individual (leaf) gets bad sap because the tree as a whole has bad sap. Adam was the first bad sap. Our sin is not a matter of imitation, of ant-like "follow the leader", but of incorporation, just as our salvation through Christ is not a matter of our imitating Christ from without but of being incorportated into Christ from within by faith.

(from You Can Understand the Bible, Ignatius Press, 2005.)

Jesus surely need not be expected to have gone over every little thing that the Jews would have known from the Torah? He concentrated on certain things that needed His illumination, but surely there was a "base knowledge" that was already accepted as known and largely understood therefore not needing His specific teaching concerning it? Wouldn't it be quite reasonable that the idea of our propensity to sin, which was already taught in the Old Testament, be regarded as knowledge well understood therefore not needing Jesus to teach and elaborate on it any further?