DonCameron wrote:First of all, I'm not the only one who feels that Jesus was not trying to teach what goes on in Hades. Here is what Turgonian said about Jesus' parable about Lazarus and the rich man...
A lot of orthodox Christians believe in everlasting punishment, but not in a literal fire. So the rich man might just have been thirsty. Others think the parable should just be taken not as a literal description of hell, but a story illustrating status-reversal to come in the afterlife. Please don't assume that everyone who talks about eternal punishment means fire and brimstone.
And so B.W. it isn't just me that does not take what Jesus said literally.
Of course I cannot speak for others, but one of the reasons I personally don't take it literally is because Jesus put the rich man in the wrong place. The place of everlasting punishment with fire is "Gehenna" not "Hades."
Another reason is because of what the Bible explains will eventually happen to Hades. In Revelation 20:13 it says that sometime in the future everyone in it will come out (including any rich people who happen to be in it). This will leave Hades empty. And then in verse 14 it says that the empty Hades will be thrown into "the second death."
I take this to mean that Hades will then be no more - just as Revelation 21:4 says that "death will be no more" when it too is thrown into the same "second death." Since people won't be dying any more, there won't be any more need for a place to put them. i.e. Hades.
Since the second death brings a permanent end to death and Hades, I conclude that it also brings a permanent end to everyone who is said to be thrown into it. - Rev. 20:15
Some on this Forum have expressed their dislike of the idea that the everlasting punishment will be consciously felt (either with or without a literal fire). But they feel that they have no choice but to accept that belief because they sincerely believe this is the Bible teaches - about Lazarus and the rich man, for example.
But in my case, the above is a way of understanding what Jesus said in this case so that he is not teaching about a conscious everlasting punishment by fire.
What do you think it means when death and Hades are thrown into the second death?
Don
First of all, I am not asking what Turgonian believes about the Rich man and Lazarus but you directly as you do not believe in everlasting punishment lasting for ever. Now on to this comment you made:
I take this to mean that Hades will then be no more - just as Revelation 21:4 says that "death will be no more" when it too is thrown into the same "second death." Since people won't be dying any more, there won't be any more need for a place to put them. i.e. Hades. Since the second death brings a permanent end to death and Hades, I conclude that it also brings a permanent end to everyone who is said to be thrown into it. - Rev. 20:15
Rev 20:11-15, “11 I saw a great white throne with someone sitting on it. Earth and heaven tried to run away, but there was no place for them to go. 12 I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done. 13 The sea gave up the dead people who were in it, and death and its kingdom also gave up their dead. Then everyone was judged by what they had done. 14 Afterwards, death and its kingdom were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name wasn't written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” CEV
According to your view, these people will be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire, in your opinion, means eternal death — non-being and non-existence. The individuals tossed into it are no more and all memory of them will cease as this is how you interpret Ecclesiastes 9:5, “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” KJV
Is this correct?
Now look at Revelations 21:1-4, “I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth had disappeared, and so had the sea. 2 Then I saw New Jerusalem, that holy city, coming down from God in heaven. It was like a bride dressed in her wedding gown and ready to meet her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice shout from the throne: God's home is now with his people. He will live with them, and they will be his own. Yes, God will make his home among his people. 4 He will wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death, suffering, crying, or pain. These things of the past are gone forever.” CEV
After the wicked are tossed into this lake of fire — the New Jerusalem will come down from the New Heavens and God will live amongst his people. The Lord will “wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death, suffering, crying, or pain. These things of the past are gone forever.”
Is this correct?
Revelations 22:1-7 then states, “The angel showed me a river that was crystal clear, and its waters gave life. The river came from the throne where God and the Lamb were seated. 2 Then it flowed down the middle of the city's main street. On each side of the river are trees that grow a different kind of fruit each month of the year. The fruit gives life, and the leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations. 3 God's curse will no longer be on the people of that city. He and the Lamb will be seated there on their thrones, and its people will worship God 4 and will see him face to face. God's name will be written on the foreheads of the people. 5 Never again will night appear, and no one who lives there will ever need a lamp or the sun. The Lord God will be their light, and they will rule forever. 6 Then I was told: These words are true and can be trusted. The Lord God controls the spirits of his prophets, and he is the one who sent his angel to show his servants what must happen right away. 7 Remember, I am coming soon! God will bless everyone who pays attention to the message of this book.” CEV
From the book we can see that God, after the white throne judgment will cast the wicked into the lake of fire, where according to your viewpoint of annihilationism, these people no-longer existence and all memory of them are erased eternally. Further more we can see that in the New Heavens, New Earth, and the New Jerusalem there will be no more death and sin as the old has past away.
Is this correct?
Revelations 22:14-15, “God will bless all who have washed their robes. They will each have the right to eat fruit from the tree that gives life, and they can enter the gates of the city. 15 But outside the city will be dogs, witches, immoral people, murderers, idol worshipers, and everyone who loves to tell lies and do wrong.”
As you can see, you those that can eat from the tree can enter the gates of the City. However, verse 15 states “But outside the city will be dogs, witches, immoral people, murderers, idol worshipers, and everyone who loves to tell lies and do wrong.”
Question: There is no more death and sin at this point in time in the New Heavens, New Earth, and the New Jerusalem. Who are these people? Where are they? Wasn't sin and death and all the wicked tossed into the lake of fire and no long exist and no memory of them either?
If the memory of the dead is forgotten by destruction as your interpretation of Ecclesiastes 9:5 states, “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” KJV — therefore how can these people in Revelations 22: 15 exist in this stage of the game?
Revelations 22: 15 “But outside the city will be dogs, witches, immoral people, murderers, idol worshipers, and everyone who loves to tell lies and do wrong.” CEV
These people in the correct timeline and context of the Book of Revelations make it clear this is after the events of Revelations 20:11-15, not before, not during, after. To say otherwise invokes severe consequence. Therefore, who are these individuals and where do they reside? Outside the gates where the lake of fire exist! You see, these people still exist and the smoke of their torment ascends forever just as Jesus stated.
Since there will be a New Heavens, New Earth, and the New Jerusalem there will also be a new Hell — a lake of fire — literal, metaphor, symbol matters not. A place set aside outside the city where [human] dogs, witches, immoral people, murderers, idol worshipers, and everyone who loves to tell lies and does wrong will remain as Jesus warned us about many-many times. These people will not be gone from memory, nor will they come into a state of eternal non-existence, but instead will remain in a fiery land of recompense chosen to be forgotten by many but in reality not left unseen - forever and ever.
Revelations 22 continues:
Rev 22:16-19 “I am Jesus! And I am the one who sent my angel to tell all of you these things for the churches. I am David's Great Descendant, and I am also the bright morning star. 17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Everyone who hears this should say, "Come!" If you are thirsty, come! If you want life-giving water, come and take it. It's free! 18 Here is my warning for everyone who hears the prophecies in this book: If you add anything to them, God will make you suffer all the terrible troubles written in this book. 19 If you take anything away from these prophecies, God will not let you have part in the life-giving tree and in the holy city described in this book.” CEV
The people in mentioned in verse Rev 22:15 are those in the lake of fire outside the City. They are conscious, awake, and suffering eternal recompense. To say otherwise invokes the stern warning of verses Rev 22:18-19. How? By adding to Revelations the doctrine of annihilationism to make the book of revelations conform annihilationist point of view indeed takes away from and adds to this book.
Don, In the terms of Chess — this is called Checkmate.
-
-
-
)