Insidious counter-terrorism methods.

[Michelle]

The following is not meant to be in any way offensive to any person who has been affected in any manner by acts of terrorism. May I make it quite clear that I unequivocally condemn any form of terrorism. I am looking for a bit of input for academic purposes only and would appreciate anyones views, and level of awareness of the following.

Many people are undoubtedly aware of George W Bush's "extraordinary methods to deal with an extraordinary situation" comments some time back. However not many people may be aware of the term or meaning of extraordinary rendition. This is what Bush was referring to when he made these comments.

Extraordinary rendition is the smuggling of a suspect to a different location to be tortured in order to gain a confession. How it works is first a suspect is detained and transported by plane out of their country of origin to another, then once again loaded on to another plane to be taken to yet another country. This way the location of the whereabouts of the detainee can not be traced. So far more than 70 000 people have been detained in this manner. Techniquely these people fall off the face of the earth. Not all of these detainees are from Middle Eastern countries either! Some have been United States citizens as well with no Middle Eastern background. Among some of these people have been British, Australian, European and other nationalities.

The use of extraordinary rendition is illegal and the United States is operating unilaterally on this. In Article 14, 15, and 16 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights it clearly indicates that the methods used by the US are illegal. In international law the rule of law applies, and suspects regardless of the charge are entitled to a fair trial. While I can not, will not ever condone any act of terrorism I condemn this method to counteract it. So far the the majority of detainees have had absolutely no association with any terrorist organisation whatsoever. They are completely innocent people.

Just because a person either comes from the Middle East, speaks to people from there (such as their own neighbors) does not mean that they are necessarily a terrorist. As well not all persons living in that region practice Islam. Some are Christians as well. Not all people who live in our western Christian based society are not always Christians themselves. A person can be guilty according to the Bush administration by association, location and even appearance.

To me this is alarming. A person must receive a fair trial. The events of 9/11 (however appalling) can never be used to justify this extraordinary rendition. The possibility that many thousands of people may although innocent still be convicted of a crime. As well many of these people may face potential execution to cover up the United States tracks. Torture should never be used to force a confession from a person. The dangers are that a person will admit to something they have not done just to stop from being tortured.

Some of the methods being used to torture detainees include sleep deprivation, hog-tying, beatings, electric shock as well as water torture. Other methods used may be too distressing for some people so I will not include them.

It disgusts me that George Bush hides behind Christianity giving the people in the US the impression that he is a morally acting Christian, while all the time he has been condoning and even assisting in the torture of so many humans. What I condemn him for even more is the fact that he has been doing this even to his own people. I do not personally but politically condemn him.

[Byblos]

The following is not meant to be in any way offensive to any person who has been affected in any manner by acts of terrorism. May I make it quite clear that I unequivocally condemn any form of terrorism. I am looking for a bit of input for academic purposes only and would appreciate anyones views, and level of awareness of the following.

Many people are undoubtedly aware of George W Bush's "extraordinary methods to deal with an extraordinary situation" comments some time back. However not many people may be aware of the term or meaning of extraordinary rendition. This is what Bush was referring to when he made these comments.

Extraordinary rendition is the smuggling of a suspect to a different location to be tortured in order to gain a confession. How it works is first a suspect is detained and transported by plane out of their country of origin to another, then once again loaded on to another plane to be taken to yet another country. This way the location of the whereabouts of the detainee can not be traced. So far more than 70 000 people have been detained in this manner. Techniquely these people fall off the face of the earth. Not all of these detainees are from Middle Eastern countries either! Some have been United States citizens as well with no Middle Eastern background. Among some of these people have been British, Australian, European and other nationalities.

The use of extraordinary rendition is illegal and the United States is operating unilaterally on this. In Article 14, 15, and 16 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights it clearly indicates that the methods used by the US are illegal. In international law the rule of law applies, and suspects regardless of the charge are entitled to a fair trial. While I can not, will not ever condone any act of terrorism I condemn this method to counteract it. So far the the majority of detainees have had absolutely no association with any terrorist organisation whatsoever. They are completely innocent people.

Just because a person either comes from the Middle East, speaks to people from there (such as their own neighbors) does not mean that they are necessarily a terrorist. As well not all persons living in that region practice Islam. Some are Christians as well. Not all people who live in our western Christian based society are not always Christians themselves. A person can be guilty according to the Bush administration by association, location and even appearance.

To me this is alarming. A person must receive a fair trial. The events of 9/11 (however appalling) can never be used to justify this extraordinary rendition. The possibility that many thousands of people may although innocent still be convicted of a crime. As well many of these people may face potential execution to cover up the United States tracks. Torture should never be used to force a confession from a person. The dangers are that a person will admit to something they have not done just to stop from being tortured.

Some of the methods being used to torture detainees include sleep deprivation, hog-tying, beatings, electric shock as well as water torture. Other methods used may be too distressing for some people so I will not include them.

It disgusts me that George Bush hides behind Christianity giving the people in the US the impression that he is a morally acting Christian, while all the time he has been condoning and even assisting in the torture of so many humans. What I condemn him for even more is the fact that he has been doing this even to his own people. I do not personally but politically condemn him.

Hi Michelle,

Please forgive the colorful expression but that's all a bunch poop.

You make wildly unsubstantiated claims without offering any proof whatsoever. You want to post so-called facts, please back them up with some links; otherwise do not misrepresent them as fact. They might be all true, I'm not saying they're not but that's besides the point.

The use of extraordinary rendition is illegal in the U.S. and other civilized nations (as per the Geneva convention) pertaining to enemy armies and civilians who themselves fall under the same laws and conventions. They most certainly do not pertain to enemy combatants who swear allegiance to no flag, country, or convention but to their sick, twisted ideologies and religions.

These are very trying times we live in. One cannot fight a war effectively if one's enemy does not have equal or at a minimum equivalent moral values as you do. You cannot be expected to give your enemies the same basic civil rights your own citizens enjoy when your enemy's very target is not your army but your very own citizens, economy and infrastructure, indeed everything you hold dear.

With all that, most detainees are now enjoying some of these basic rights as representation and fair trials by military tribunals. Far more generous than what they afforded our fellow civilians in the twin towers, the Pentagon, and the plane that crashed in PA on 9/11, wouldn't you say?

The war on terror was not started by Bush nor was he the one to define it in terms of religion; enough putting his christianity on trial. Regardless, you can bet your bottom dollar he will not cower down and give in. He will stay the course not matter how difficult and I hope his predecessor will do the same. The alternative is unthinkable.

In case you're wondering, yes I am a republican and Bush supporter ; I am also an Arab .

God bless,

John.

[puritan lad]

Besides that, I wasn't aware that Al Qaeda had signed onto the Geneva Convention. When they do, they might want to be made aware that the videotaped beheadings of civilians is a clear violation.

[puritan lad]

Michelle,

Do you have any evidence of these atrocities, particularly those against US Citiziens, or are you getting your information from MoveOn.org, etc.?

Sleep deprivation, water torture, loud music? Perish the thought!!!
I guarantee you that if I captured a terrorist that had information that would save my family's life, he would find out what torture really is.

Maybe you think we should put up terrorists in the Ritz Hotel???

[Canuckster1127]

The following is not meant to be in any way offensive to any person who has been affected in any manner by acts of terrorism. May I make it quite clear that I unequivocally condemn any form of terrorism. I am looking for a bit of input for academic purposes only and would appreciate anyones views, and level of awareness of the following.

Many people are undoubtedly aware of George W Bush's "extraordinary methods to deal with an extraordinary situation" comments some time back. However not many people may be aware of the term or meaning of extraordinary rendition. This is what Bush was referring to when he made these comments.

Extraordinary rendition is the smuggling of a suspect to a different location to be tortured in order to gain a confession. How it works is first a suspect is detained and transported by plane out of their country of origin to another, then once again loaded on to another plane to be taken to yet another country. This way the location of the whereabouts of the detainee can not be traced. So far more than 70 000 people have been detained in this manner. Techniquely these people fall off the face of the earth. Not all of these detainees are from Middle Eastern countries either! Some have been United States citizens as well with no Middle Eastern background. Among some of these people have been British, Australian, European and other nationalities.

The use of extraordinary rendition is illegal and the United States is operating unilaterally on this. In Article 14, 15, and 16 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights it clearly indicates that the methods used by the US are illegal. In international law the rule of law applies, and suspects regardless of the charge are entitled to a fair trial. While I can not, will not ever condone any act of terrorism I condemn this method to counteract it. So far the the majority of detainees have had absolutely no association with any terrorist organisation whatsoever. They are completely innocent people.

Just because a person either comes from the Middle East, speaks to people from there (such as their own neighbors) does not mean that they are necessarily a terrorist. As well not all persons living in that region practice Islam. Some are Christians as well. Not all people who live in our western Christian based society are not always Christians themselves. A person can be guilty according to the Bush administration by association, location and even appearance.

To me this is alarming. A person must receive a fair trial. The events of 9/11 (however appalling) can never be used to justify this extraordinary rendition. The possibility that many thousands of people may although innocent still be convicted of a crime. As well many of these people may face potential execution to cover up the United States tracks. Torture should never be used to force a confession from a person. The dangers are that a person will admit to something they have not done just to stop from being tortured.

Some of the methods being used to torture detainees include sleep deprivation, hog-tying, beatings, electric shock as well as water torture. Other methods used may be too distressing for some people so I will not include them.

It disgusts me that George Bush hides behind Christianity giving the people in the US the impression that he is a morally acting Christian, while all the time he has been condoning and even assisting in the torture of so many humans. What I condemn him for even more is the fact that he has been doing this even to his own people. I do not personally but politically condemn him.

Michelle,

Do you have a source for any of this?

70,000? Are you kidding? That is an outrageous claim and needs substantiation.

You start indicating you want input on an academic level and then end with condemnations, disgust and judgements of someone's Christianity?

No response is really needed here until you substantiate your claims.

Regards,

Bart

[FFC]

I don't know if what you have written is true, Michelle, but I don't put it past the Bush regime...I was a republican for 30 years until he came into Office and shortly after that I became a conservative Democrat. Christian does not equal Republican.

[Michelle]

The following is not meant to be in any way offensive to any person who has been affected in any manner by acts of terrorism. May I make it quite clear that I unequivocally condemn any form of terrorism. I am looking for a bit of input for academic purposes only and would appreciate anyones views, and level of awareness of the following.

Many people are undoubtedly aware of George W Bush's "extraordinary methods to deal with an extraordinary situation" comments some time back. However not many people may be aware of the term or meaning of extraordinary rendition. This is what Bush was referring to when he made these comments.

Extraordinary rendition is the smuggling of a suspect to a different location to be tortured in order to gain a confession. How it works is first a suspect is detained and transported by plane out of their country of origin to another, then once again loaded on to another plane to be taken to yet another country. This way the location of the whereabouts of the detainee can not be traced. So far more than 70 000 people have been detained in this manner. Techniquely these people fall off the face of the earth. Not all of these detainees are from Middle Eastern countries either! Some have been United States citizens as well with no Middle Eastern background. Among some of these people have been British, Australian, European and other nationalities.

The use of extraordinary rendition is illegal and the United States is operating unilaterally on this. In Article 14, 15, and 16 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights it clearly indicates that the methods used by the US are illegal. In international law the rule of law applies, and suspects regardless of the charge are entitled to a fair trial. While I can not, will not ever condone any act of terrorism I condemn this method to counteract it. So far the the majority of detainees have had absolutely no association with any terrorist organisation whatsoever. They are completely innocent people.

Just because a person either comes from the Middle East, speaks to people from there (such as their own neighbors) does not mean that they are necessarily a terrorist. As well not all persons living in that region practice Islam. Some are Christians as well. Not all people who live in our western Christian based society are not always Christians themselves. A person can be guilty according to the Bush administration by association, location and even appearance.

To me this is alarming. A person must receive a fair trial. The events of 9/11 (however appalling) can never be used to justify this extraordinary rendition. The possibility that many thousands of people may although innocent still be convicted of a crime. As well many of these people may face potential execution to cover up the United States tracks. Torture should never be used to force a confession from a person. The dangers are that a person will admit to something they have not done just to stop from being tortured.

Some of the methods being used to torture detainees include sleep deprivation, hog-tying, beatings, electric shock as well as water torture. Other methods used may be too distressing for some people so I will not include them.

It disgusts me that George Bush hides behind Christianity giving the people in the US the impression that he is a morally acting Christian, while all the time he has been condoning and even assisting in the torture of so many humans. What I condemn him for even more is the fact that he has been doing this even to his own people. I do not personally but politically condemn him.

Michelle,

Do you have a source for any of this?

70,000? Are you kidding? That is an outrageous claim and needs substantiation.

You start indicating you want input on an academic level and then end with condemnations, disgust and judgements of someone's Christianity?

No response is really needed here until you substantiate your claims.

Regards,

Bart

Bart, The information regarding this came from two distinct sources. The first was from the United Nations and the second was from Amnesty International. I do not rely on internet information. I have not given the site addresses simply because I dont feel these organisations would appreciate it if they started getting idiots messing around with their websites (not meaning any one from this forum).

As for the numbers, again the above sources will substantiate this. For some reason when anybody makes the slightest comment in against anything Bush has some people view it as an attack on the US itself. It is simply a warning to people that something is occurring that shouldn't be. I am a stickler for human rights.

[August]

The USA and many other states are involved in the unlawful practice of "rendition" that, in the context of the "war on terror", has led to numerous men being secretly flown to countries where they have suffered torture or other ill-treatment and prolonged detention without charge.

Some victims of rendition have subsequently turned up in official US detention centres, such as Guantánamo Bay. Others have simply "disappeared" after being arrested by US agents or turned over to US custody.

About 25 rendition cases have so far become public. Based on the available evidence however, the number of victims of rendition is likely to be in hundreds.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/stoptorture-renditions-eng

[Michelle]

I don't know if what you have written is true, Michelle, but I don't put it past the Bush regime...I was a republican for 30 years until he came into Office and shortly after that I became a conservative Democrat. Christian does not equal Republican.

At first when I came across the information I thought what a load of rubbish. However the more research I did the more I found out it was true. There is even more information regarding this from the report into terrorism from the US government itself.

[Canuckster1127]

The following is not meant to be in any way offensive to any person who has been affected in any manner by acts of terrorism. May I make it quite clear that I unequivocally condemn any form of terrorism. I am looking for a bit of input for academic purposes only and would appreciate anyones views, and level of awareness of the following.

Many people are undoubtedly aware of George W Bush's "extraordinary methods to deal with an extraordinary situation" comments some time back. However not many people may be aware of the term or meaning of extraordinary rendition. This is what Bush was referring to when he made these comments.

Extraordinary rendition is the smuggling of a suspect to a different location to be tortured in order to gain a confession. How it works is first a suspect is detained and transported by plane out of their country of origin to another, then once again loaded on to another plane to be taken to yet another country. This way the location of the whereabouts of the detainee can not be traced. So far more than 70 000 people have been detained in this manner. Techniquely these people fall off the face of the earth. Not all of these detainees are from Middle Eastern countries either! Some have been United States citizens as well with no Middle Eastern background. Among some of these people have been British, Australian, European and other nationalities.

The use of extraordinary rendition is illegal and the United States is operating unilaterally on this. In Article 14, 15, and 16 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights it clearly indicates that the methods used by the US are illegal. In international law the rule of law applies, and suspects regardless of the charge are entitled to a fair trial. While I can not, will not ever condone any act of terrorism I condemn this method to counteract it. So far the the majority of detainees have had absolutely no association with any terrorist organisation whatsoever. They are completely innocent people.

Just because a person either comes from the Middle East, speaks to people from there (such as their own neighbors) does not mean that they are necessarily a terrorist. As well not all persons living in that region practice Islam. Some are Christians as well. Not all people who live in our western Christian based society are not always Christians themselves. A person can be guilty according to the Bush administration by association, location and even appearance.

To me this is alarming. A person must receive a fair trial. The events of 9/11 (however appalling) can never be used to justify this extraordinary rendition. The possibility that many thousands of people may although innocent still be convicted of a crime. As well many of these people may face potential execution to cover up the United States tracks. Torture should never be used to force a confession from a person. The dangers are that a person will admit to something they have not done just to stop from being tortured.

Some of the methods being used to torture detainees include sleep deprivation, hog-tying, beatings, electric shock as well as water torture. Other methods used may be too distressing for some people so I will not include them.

It disgusts me that George Bush hides behind Christianity giving the people in the US the impression that he is a morally acting Christian, while all the time he has been condoning and even assisting in the torture of so many humans. What I condemn him for even more is the fact that he has been doing this even to his own people. I do not personally but politically condemn him.

Michelle,

Do you have a source for any of this?

70,000? Are you kidding? That is an outrageous claim and needs substantiation.

You start indicating you want input on an academic level and then end with condemnations, disgust and judgements of someone's Christianity?

No response is really needed here until you substantiate your claims.

Regards,

Bart

Bart, The information regarding this came from two distinct sources. The first was from the United Nations and the second was from Amnesty International. I do not rely on internet information. I have not given the site addresses simply because I dont feel these organisations would appreciate it if they started getting idiots messing around with their websites (not meaning any one from this forum).

As for the numbers, again the above sources will substantiate this. For some reason when anybody makes the slightest comment in against anything Bush has some people view it as an attack on the US itself. It is simply a warning to people that something is occurring that shouldn't be. I am a stickler for human rights.

Michelle,

I don't believe that Bush walks on water not that the US never makes mistakes.

You made a pretty large claim here of 70,000. Would you please give me a direct link to where that number is substantiated?

August has given one that indicates 25 cases are know with conjecture (unsubstantiated) that it might be hundreds.

That's more in line with what I'm familiar with.

Do you have direct substantiation of the assertions you're making other than general references to sites which are public record and there's no reason I'm aware of for not referencing?

Thanks

Bart

[August]

Actually, that quote is from Michelle's source, Amnesty International.

Also, the European amnesty orgs investigators could not find any hard evidence of such prisons in Europe.

Whilst hard evidence, at least according to the strict meaning of the word, is still not forthcoming, a number of coherent and converging elements indicate that secret detention centres have indeed existed and unlawful inter-state transfers have taken place in Europe. I do not set myself up to act as a criminal court, because this would require evidence beyond reasonable doubt. My assessment rather reflects a conviction based upon careful examination of balance of probabilities, as
well as upon logical deductions from clearly established facts. It is not intended to pronounce that the authorities of these countries are 'guilty' for having tolerated secret detention sites, but rather it is to hold them 'responsible' for failing to comply with the positive obligation to diligently investigate any serious allegation of fundamental rights violations.

From the report on secret detention centres in Europe, June 2006. In other words, we believe that the US did it, because that is what we want to believe.

[Michelle]

The USA and many other states are involved in the unlawful practice of "rendition" that, in the context of the "war on terror", has led to numerous men being secretly flown to countries where they have suffered torture or other ill-treatment and prolonged detention without charge.

Some victims of rendition have subsequently turned up in official US detention centres, such as Guantánamo Bay. Others have simply "disappeared" after being arrested by US agents or turned over to US custody.

About 25 rendition cases have so far become public. Based on the available evidence however, the number of victims of rendition is likely to be in hundreds.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/stoptorture-renditions-eng

Thanks for the info. The Amnesty report I got was different from this one. I got the written report itself. Which is strange because the information contradicts what your link states. I believe it is very possible that my information may not be the true numbers but a suspected estimation. Or it is possible that the numbers referred to are the collective of all the people over a number of years (including before 9/11.).

This is one reason why I asked people what they did know. The more info, the more accurate it will be. Isn't it amazing how we both had information from the same organisation yet it was different. I also got info from the UN as well. But once again can they be trusted either?

[Michelle]

Michelle,

Do you have any evidence of these atrocities, particularly those against US Citiziens, or are you getting your information from MoveOn.org, etc.?

Sleep deprivation, water torture, loud music? Perish the thought!!!
I guarantee you that if I captured a terrorist that had information that would save my family's life, he would find out what torture really is.

Maybe you think we should put up terrorists in the Ritz Hotel???

You missed the whole point. My info has been from written reports. However interestingly enough it is in contradiction to other reports So I am willing to admit that my source may be wrong. Even if I did get a written report there is always the possibility that there is a printing error. That is why I stated for academic purposes. I want further info not just to rely on the stuff I have.

As for your attitude regarding your family, I wouldnt blame you for wanting to tear a terrorist apart. However the issue is whether or nor it is right to torture a person to gain a confession. What if innocent people are tortured?

[August]

Michelle, do you not think that the war on radical Islam is unlike any other war ever fought?

I fought in a war in Africa myself, and it is no bed of roses. I saw way too many innocent people die, and human beings do unimaginable things to each other. War is hell on earth. Unfortunately, when in a war, one has to choose the lesser of evils. Of course everyone would prefer to not go to war, or when in a war, arrange duelling pistols at 3 on the lawn. But that is not how it works. It is a dirty, messy, barbaric and bloody affair, and involves the spilling of blood, whether we like it or not. No-one enters a war with the intent to lose, and especially in this case, where the one side deliberately chooses to attack civilian targets, it is imperative to keep the war away from those civilians.

I do not condone torture, don't get me wrong. But just as the killing of a fellow human being is sometimes unavoidable, so is the extraction of information to save lives. It is a sad and unfair choice, but a necessary one.

I think it is good that there are organisations that keeps an eye on these types of things, it keeps everyone on their toes. However, it is very disappointing that I cannot find a condemnation or expression of outrage against the terrorists, not even an appeal for them to stop attacking civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. If organisations like AI wants to keep some semblance of credibility, they should be equally critical of all abusers of human rights.

[Michelle]

Thanks everyone for your remarks. I do not rely on websites but rather ask for the written reports. I find it amazing that there can be two distinctly different information from the same organisation. This is the beauty of doing this research. The more I am finding out the more accurate everything will be which is what I am aiming for.

I am curious though, I wonder if the report I got as well as the UN info was assumed to be correct at the time and has since been updated. Either way I appreciate being corrected. Once again thanks all.