Is it logial to believe in a heaven or hell?

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:02 pm

Well first, you posted under baseman (causes much confusion). Does johnnyb = baseman... Same IPs. Please explain?

Additionally, if you've ever been educated in philosophy, you'd see a great deal of questions and problems lie in the arena of those who advocate determinism, more so than those who advocate libertarianism. To be a determinist you have to disregard many concepts we take for granted such as justice, goodness, responsibility, the choices we "appear" to have. All these are concepts closely tied in with Christianity. If baseman accepts only some orthodox Christian concepts surrounding God and us, then of course he'll run into problems if he doesn't assume the whole Christian belief set, including our freedom to choose, which appears to be a most logical and sound belief to have.

I also notice that much of what I've said has gone unchallenged. You can insult my intelligence all you like rather than deal with what is written, but producing ad hominems only reveals the weakness of your case, or lack of ability to argue for it.

Kurieuo.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:08 pm

For me at least, the concept of heaven and hell is a manifestation of the human need for immortality, which i think is the fundemental reason for christianities continued existence.
Who wouldnt want to have the promised eternal life in paradise.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:12 pm

An underlying premise within such an arguement is that death is something to be feared. However, if it can be shown that death can be embraced positively ragardless of an afterlife, then such an argument becomes dramatically weakened. Additionally, one can argue that one would not want to be held accountable for all their actions in this life, and therefore an afterlife where one would be held accountable is not something to look forward to. Thus, a permanent ceasing of existence would be more greatly welcomed.

Now to reason how death can be seen in a positive light, Jean-Paul Sartre thought the opposite believing that "death removes all meaning from life." Such a statement raises some serious questions about whether human life has any ultimate significance, or whether we are merely the by-product of forces and nothing more. Yet a response comes from Heidegger who pointed out that if life went on forever it would be equally meaningless, in that life would just be an endless concatenation of contingencies of no ultimate significance. Thus, Heidegger bids us to live in realistic anticipation of death, which would invigorate us to live life with more zest and intensity. I'd agree with Heidegger somewhat in his belief that it is precisely death that allows human life to be regarded as valuable and as having significance.

Kurieuo.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:04 pm

Most people who argue against the afterlife don't even know what Heaven/Hell really is or what it will be like so most arguments against it are moot and meaningless.

No heaven is not a bunch of christians getting lazy in a utopia and no hell is not a place where the devil pokes you with a pitchfork.

Once these misconceptions are removed, then one can discuss about the topic.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:14 pm

No heaven is not a bunch of christians getting lazy in a utopia

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:40 pm

Heaven is the dwelling place of God and for those who go there a place of everlasting bliss. Scripture implies three heavens, since "the third heaven" is revealed to exist (2 Cor. 12:2). It is logical that a third heaven cannot exist without a first and second. Scripture does not describe specifically the first and second heaven. The first, however, apparently refers to the atmospheric heavens of the fowl (Hosea 2:18) and clouds (Dan. 7:13). The second heaven may be the area of the stars and planets (Gen. 1:14-18). It is the abode of all supernatural angelic beings. The third heaven is the abode of the triune God. Its location is unrevealed. (See Matt. 23:34-37; Luke 10:20; and Rev. 22:2, 20-27).
http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_g-h.htm

In scripture, the word heaven has three meanings. (1) The sky, where the clouds are and where weather happens. We use heaven in this sense when we describe an approaching thunderstorm by saying that the “heavens are angry.” (2) The place where the stars and planets are located. We use heaven in this sense when we talk about the grandeur of the “heavens” while looking at the nighttime sky. (3) The place where God abides with His angels. In popular religion, Christians zip off to heaven when they die. In historic Christianity, when Christians die, their souls go to Paradise (Luke 23:43, also called the Bosom of Abraham) to await the Resurrection and the Last Judgment, after which they live in the New Jerusalem, also called the New Earth.
http://www.kencollins.com/glossary/Terms.htm

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:48 pm

What Will Heaven be Like?
by Rich Deem

Kurieuo: Full article quoted removedlinks are better.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:51 pm

What Will Hell be Like?

Kurieuo: Full article quoted removedlinks are better.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:26 pm

OK, one more time. Why did God give people, including Adam and Eve, free will if He knew that we would mess up, make the wrong decisions, and ultimately reject Him?

Free will is a blessing and a curse. God has given all of us the absolute ability to makes choices in life. We have the ability to choose good or evil, right or wrong, self or others. Unfortunately, from the beginning of time, we have chosen evil quite often. Many argue that mankind is generally good. Actually, mankind is generally bad. Just look at history. Just look at small children (we don't have to teach them how to steal cookies or strike siblings).

Why did God give us free will then? Wouldn't it have been easier and nicer to create mankind as inherently good. Well, God's purpose with mankind is to have eternal fellowship with those who truly love Him. Therefore, to create us as inherently good robots, without the potential for the opposite character, evil, would not allow for true love. For only love that comes from a free choice of the will is TRUE LOVE. Voluntary choice is the key - love isn't genuine if there's no other option.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/faq/one-more-time.htm

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:24 am

An underlying premise within such an arguement is that death is something to be feared. However, if it can be shown that death can be embraced positively ragardless of an afterlife, then such an argument becomes dramatically weakened.

Yes it can, but I'm talking about the majority here. Here is my reasoning: Most people fear death, death is a certainty, inescapable part of life. Though you cant change death, you can change what you view comes after it. Christianity offers a promise that there is good life after death, that is only if you give yourself to christ etc... It would be natural for one who fears death to be entice by such promises.
fear of death is one reason people go to church.

Additionally, one can argue that one would not want to be held accountable for all their actions in this life, and therefore an afterlife where one would be held accountable is not something to look forward to.

Well, if you are a christian, then you would have no fear for that. Therefore an afterlife is something to look forward to.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:51 am

nameless wrote:Most people fear death, death is a certainty, inescapable part of life. Though you cant change death, you can change what you view comes after it. Christianity offers a promise that there is good life after death, that is only if you give yourself to christ etc... It would be natural for one who fears death to be entice by such promises.
fear of death is one reason people go to church.

No argument here, Christianity does offer promise and adds a meaning and purpose to life, an ultimate meaning and purpose we all seem to feel life has. Is there something wrong with that?

Based on similar reasoning to your own, it could be said Atheist's choose to view death as an end to their existence despite our feeling of immortality and purpose and that there must exist something more, because they somehow think it more noble. Personally I do not see the reason why one would fear an absense of existence anymore than one dreads the time before they were conceived.

In the end, it does not matter whether you think Christians are in some way caused to hold their beliefs, and thereby you commit the genetic fallacy. Such an accusation has no impact upon the validity or reasonableness of our beliefs. And from all I know, and all I have experienced, I am confident my beliefs are correct, and rationally sound.

Kurieuo.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:45 am

Based on similar reasoning to your own, it could be said Atheist's choose to view death as an end to their existence despite our feeling of immortality and purpose and that there must exist something more, because they somehow think it more noble.

Well as a agnostic/athesist person, its not because I 'somehow' think its more noble. I would gladly believe in heaven and hell and christianity if someone could show me that it is true. Which of course hasnt happen.

Such an accusation has no impact upon the validity or reasonableness of our beliefs

No it doesnt... i wasnt even accusing, just merely stating what I observe. Its however wise to realise that when one has vested interest in a position ie 'immortal life', it is hard to engage in a thoroughly objective discussion.

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Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:38 am

nameless wrote:No it doesnt... i wasnt even accusing, just merely stating what I observe. Its however wise to realise that when one has vested interest in a position ie 'immortal life', it is hard to engage in a thoroughly objective discussion.

Actually, it's not as hard as you think if one accepts all knowledge is based upon foundational knowledge, but I'm assuming someone who knows what is wise to realise would already realise that.

This becomes even more plausible when one factors in that we appear to have a default sense of an afterlife (as you noted earlier). Therefore our sense of immortality could be explained by a foundational knowledge, and one must therefore wonder why we have we begin with such desire if it is untrue and there is nothing to fulfill it.

Additionally, the Christian hope is based on Christ, who was a historical figure, and so is open to investigation. As Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 15:13-19—
13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Kurieuo.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:16 am

This becomes even more plausible when one factors in that we appear to have a default sense of an afterlife (as you noted earlier)

That is not my view.

Therefore our sense of immortality could be explained by a foundational knowledge, and one must therefore wonder why we have we begin with such desire if it is untrue and there is nothing to fulfill it

My view is that there is a need for immortality, not a sense of immortality.
A need for immortality is the consenquences of an organism wanting to preserve its existence for as long as possible. Such traits are advantageous for the survival of the species.
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Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:17 am

Incidentally if you do have studies which show humans have innate sense of immortality, could you provide me with the source.

Actually, it's not as hard as you think if one accepts all knowledge is based upon foundational knowledge

I'm not familiar with the term foundational knowledge, if its not to much of a trouble, could you elaborate on that.