Calvinism and Arminianism

[Turgonian]

Gman -- I don't see why we should be stuck with a logical contradiction.
It's not useful in apologetics either.

[Canuckster1127]

Gman -- I don't see why we should be stuck with a logical contradiction.
It's not useful in apologetics either.

The claim of a logical contradiction can be used as a cop-out not to address an issue where there maybe sufficient Scriptural information to resolve it. That's obviously a misuse.

Apologetics is easier when there is a position of asserted certainty.

Unfortunately, logical contradictions are inevitable at some level, whenever the finite seeks to grasp the infinite.

The hard part is figuring out where that point is.

Too early and you're guilty perhaps of lazy or sloppy hermeneutics, failing to take heed to the whole Word of God and treating something he chose to reveal as not worth pursuing.

Too late and you're then guilty perhaps of philisophical eisogesis, elevating attributes of God and portions of Scripture over others and in so doing not accepting the whole council of God.

It's an important element to take into consideration for any Christian and it plays very much into the debate of Calvinism/Aminianism as well as many others.

[Gman]

Gman -- I don't see why we should be stuck with a logical contradiction.
It's not useful in apologetics either.

I don't see it as logical contradiction... I think "so called" logical conclusions aren't useful either...

[B. W.]

A close friend sent me the following link that I think offers yet another viewpoint of both Calvinism and Arminianism's doctrine of election and addresses where each skews from biblical truth (as per the author). His take on Romans 8:29,30 caught my attention in particular. It is well worth the time to read.

Any comments, please start another thread related to the article so as to leave this thread for references only.

(PL, if you would like to offer any insight, you can do it in your response thread rather than starting a new one, up to you).

A Biblical Explanation of the Doctrine of Election.
By Cooper P. Abrams, III

God bless,

John.

Great article John!!

He has it right on. I am glad he wrote about Roman's chapter Nine too as this saves time discussing it again with PL.

Again thank you for posting the link!
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[puritan lad]

I've already addressed most of the nonsense in the document. Nothing new here but the same old stuff.

For example, he writes. "Vessels fitted for destruction are those that reject God."

The Bible says that God prepared the vessels beforehand". Nothing is said in Romans 9 about man rejecting God, but rather God rejecting man. (See Roman 9:16)

The article says that "Paul is addressing the misunderstanding of the Jews in which they concluded that they were in God's favor because they being born as Hebrews". I'm sure that the Jews were confused about whether of not Pharoah was saved or lost based on his race.

This is not exegesis, but an attempt to explain away the clear meaning of the passage by including extrabiblical theories which the author wants the passage to say. Therefore, I'm not surprised the B.W. loved it.

[B. W.]

I've already addressed most of the nonsense in the document. Nothing new here but the same old stuff.

For example, he writes. "Vessels fitted for destruction are those that reject God."

The Bible says that God prepared the vessels beforehand". Nothing is said in Romans 9 about man rejecting God, but rather God rejecting man. (See Roman 9:16)

The article says that "Paul is addressing the misunderstanding of the Jews in which they concluded that they were in God's favor because they being born as Hebrews". I'm sure that the Jews were confused about whether of not Pharoah was saved or lost based on his race.

This is not exegesis, but an attempt to explain away the clear meaning of the passage by including extrabiblical theories which the author wants the passage to say. Therefore, I'm not surprised the B.W. loved it.

Laughing out loud!!

No hard feelings here! Can't wait to meet you someday so we can laugh about this together! You are a true Christian Man and I respect that. Just hope someday you can shed your hard determinism as many good Calvinist have and re-explore the Glorious Nature, Character, and Wisdom of God.

However, in the world of Calvinist Hard Determinism and all its subgroups the entire Christian world is divided between Armenians Heretics and noble Calvinist. All must conform to either of these two standards. It's a shame never to see the forest because of the trees. I have many things I can say about Armenianist Hard Determinism too but why bother most has been already be discussed adequately by you. However, the Christian world or church is made up of many members — not just two! Thank God for that! Amen!

Well, PL — did God predetermine, cause, King David to Sin so that God could cause Absalom's crimes and woes that befell King David's family? I am still waiting for your answer. Which by the way was my answer to your question regarding 2 Samuel 12:9-12 was with another question so stated above.
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[B. W.]

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Well let me toss more wrentches into your cogs.

Here is a better website explaining the debate:

http://www.biblehelp.org/sumsel.htm

It would do everyone well to read it all...

Enjoy!

Look at this section too:

http://www.biblehelp.org/dowhat.htm

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[puritan lad]

No hard feelings here! Can't wait to meet you someday so we can laugh about this together! You are a true Christian Man and I respect that.

I don't know. According to the article, I am a heretic (not that I care what he says.)

Just hope someday you can shed your hard determinism as many good Calvinist have and re-explore the Glorious Nature, Character, and Wisdom of God.

The issue is hard determinism (which is supported by many scriptures, of which I have already relayed), vs. "free-will", which is totally absent in the Scriptures. It is a question of whether we will fix any flaws in the Sovereignty of God in order to maintain "free will" (in any libertarian sense.) It is a question of whether man maintains any goodness in himself apart from the imputation of the Holy Spirit. It is an issue between a God-Centered or a Man-Centered theology.

For More Ramifications of this debate, check out The Ramifications of Bad Soteriology

Well, PL — did God predetermine, cause, King David to Sin so that God could cause Absalom's crimes and woes that befell King David's family? I am still waiting for your answer. Which by the way was my answer to your question regarding 2 Samuel 12:9-12 was with another question so stated above.

I says "yes". This was the secret will and work of God. Surprised? God doesn't need me to defend His honor. He has no shame in this. He openly declares that He would do this thing openly before all Israel and before the Sun. That's fine by me. He's God and I'm not.

David had no objections either.

[Canuckster1127]

Reminder. I know it's hard to do and there are some good resources being placed up.

Please try to keep this thread focused on resources and move any debate to another thread.

Thanks to all for the good material thus far.

[B. W.]

No hard feelings here! Can't wait to meet you someday so we can laugh about this together! You are a true Christian Man and I respect that.

I don't know. According to the article, I am a heretic (not that I care what he says.)

Just hope someday you can shed your hard determinism as many good Calvinist have and re-explore the Glorious Nature, Character, and Wisdom of God.

The issue is hard determinism (which is supported by many scriptures, of which I have already relayed), vs. "free-will", which is totally absent in the Scriptures. It is a question of whether we will fix any flaws in the Sovereignty of God in order to maintain "free will" (in any libertarian sense.) It is a question of whether man maintains any goodness in himself apart from the imputation of the Holy Spirit. It is an issue between a God-Centered or a Man-Centered theology.

For More Ramifications of this debate, check out The Ramifications of Bad Soteriology

Well, PL — did God predetermine, cause, King David to Sin so that God could cause Absalom's crimes and woes that befell King David's family? I am still waiting for your answer. Which by the way was my answer to your question regarding 2 Samuel 12:9-12 was with another question so stated above.

I says "yes". This was the secret will and work of God. Surprised? God doesn't need me to defend His honor. He has no shame in this. He openly declares that He would do this thing openly before all Israel and before the Sun. That's fine by me. He's God and I'm not.

David had no objections either.

No problem PL - I'll copy this to our threads and get back with you there.

I do not want to clutter this thread - just post those resource links I posted for the readers to look at so they can see other's points of view besides our own!
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