God's forgiveness of the most evil

[Kurieuo]

I am wondering how the following reflection sits with other Christians, and I am sure others who deeply reflect upon this issue will find it particularly challenging to wrap their head around.

Think of the most "evil" person you can think of in history, or who you can conjure up in your imagination. Take Hitler, for example, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, or Dr. Mengele and his experimentation on live human beings, or imagine a human being who is essentially Satan who is highly responsible for the extreme amounts of pain and suffering in the world.

Now think of God wanting a relationship with such a vile person, so much so, God sent Christ through whom He is able to forgive the most hideous human who has ever lived ad infinitum. Now the most serious question I pose, is why would a God who is righteous even bother with such a creature? Out of love some might respond. Yet, why would God love such a being to begin with? Can anyone comprehend this?

I feel Christians often take for granted the forgiveness God really does offers us all through Christ. Reflecting upon this issue deeply, I personally find it stretches my imagination to extremities, in thinking that God could "really" love beings who are so diametrically opposed to His holy nature. It stretches my imagination to comprehend why He would love the vilest of us so much. So much so, that He offers unlimited grace just to have a relationship with the vilest person one could imagine. As Christians, is it really possible for us finite beings to accept this unfathomable forgiveness is really real? Or is the most we can do is hope in Christ with a hope that such forgiveness is real?

K

[IRQ Conflict]

Hi Kurieuo,

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. I do not believe God desires any relations with evil on any level.

More to the point Christ died once and for everyone if there is a way to save Hitler for example, God would do it because he sees the heart and reads the thoughts of man. Hate the sin but love the sinner.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers.

How many Christians did Paul kill? It's hard to kick against the pricks

Only God knows the heart and vengeance as He says is His. I just tend to leave things such as this in His most capable hands.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart mind and soul and lean not unto your own understanding.

[August]

I am wondering how the following reflection sits with other Christians, and I am sure others who deeply reflect upon this issue will find it particularly challenging to wrap their head around.

Think of the most "evil" person you can think of in history, or who you can conjure up in your imagination. Take Hitler, for example, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, or Dr. Mengele and his experimentation on live human beings, or imagine a human being who is essentially Satan who is highly responsible for the extreme amounts of pain and suffering in the world.

Now think of God wanting a relationship with such a vile person, so much so, God sent Christ through whom He is able to forgive the most hideous human who has ever lived ad infinitum. Now the most serious question I pose, is why would a God who is righteous even bother with such a creature? Out of love some might respond. Yet, why would God love such a being to begin with? Can anyone comprehend this?

I feel Christians often take for granted the forgiveness God really does offers us all through Christ. Reflecting upon this issue deeply, I personally find it stretches my imagination to extremities, in thinking that God could "really" love beings who are so diametrically opposed to His holy nature. It stretches my imagination to comprehend why He would love the vilest of us so much. So much so, that He offers unlimited grace just to have a relationship with the vilest person one could imagine. As Christians, is it really possible for us finite beings to accept this unfathomable forgiveness is really real? Or is the most we can do is hope in Christ with a hope that such forgiveness is real?

K

K, it is indeed mind-boggling to consider this. It may even get back to a more fundamental issue, why did God create something such as a human with the potential for such evil?

I have a couple of comments. Firstly, would it be at all possible for us to have a discussion about God's incredible unmerited grace that saves us from eternal damnation, and its transforming power, without being able to contrast it against pure evil? We cannot know what Gods real love is unless we also see the results of what stands in stark contrast. God is glorified by the results of His transformatory powers. Can we argue that glory comes to God when evil is overcome?

And secondly, before I get jumped for being wishy-washy on evil, we must remember that God hates evil. He hates it with such a passion that He had His only Son abused, flogged, spit on, insulted, nailed to a cross and murdered to make sure that evil does not rule. God brought His terrible sword of justice against His own Son to make sure that we can share in His glory, forever. If that justice is not enough to overcome even the worst sins, how do any of us stand a chance?

[Byblos]

Beautifully said August, particularly the following:

Can we argue that glory comes to God when evil is overcome?

How true. God is glorified by defeating evil. God's love shines through in the most illuminating way when, by his love, evil is conquered. Nowhere is this more clear than in the resurrection of Jesus Christ when God conquered death (evil's deadliest weapon so-to-speak) once and for all.

Going back to the point K was making, I've had the 'Hitler' discussion a couple of times, most notably (the one that had a lasting impression on me) is the one I had with Jac. Now there's really no way to have a discussion of this nature without it morphing back into OSAS and/or election/predestination. But I think in light of August's post, Hitler and the likes are just part of the global equation.

Byblos.

[puritan lad]

This says it all...

"God finds nothing in man to turn His heart, but enough to turn His stomach. He finds enough to provoke His loathing, but nothing to excite His love. Look back upon yourself, O Christian! Reflect upon your swinish nature, the spiritual filthiness of your flesh, your once beloved mire (II Peter 2). Behold your moral slime and corruption. Do not your own clothes abhor you? (Job 9:31). How then should holiness and purity love you? Be astonished, O heavens, at this be moved, O earth. Who but must needs cry, Grace! Grace! (Zech. 4:7). Hear and blush, you children of the Most High. O unthankful men, that free grace is no more in your mouths, in your thoughts; no more adored, admired and commended by such as you! One would think you should be doing nothing but praising and admiring God wherever you are. How can you forget such a grace, or pass it over with a slight and former mention? What but free grace could move God to love you, unless enmity could do it, unless deformity could do it? How affectionately Peter lifts up his hands: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, who of his abundant mercy hath begotten us again." How feelingly does Paul magnify the free mercy of God in it: "God who is rich in mercy, for hsi great love with which he loved us, has quickened us together with Christ. By grace are you saved" (Eph. 2:4-5)!

(Joseph Alleine - An Alarm to the Unconverted)

[madscientist]

Think of the most "evil" person you can think of in history, or who you can conjure up in your imagination. Take Hitler, for example, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, or Dr. Mengele and his experimentation on live human beings, or imagine a human being who is essentially Satan who is highly responsible for the extreme amounts of pain and suffering in the world.

I think this is just the infinite love God offers us all. But i laso think thre is a linit how evil a person can be. At least my opinion on this. This is when one desires everyone to suffer eternally, all the people... and wants them evil, everyone to suffer in hell and him/her be able to watch and see them suffer and laugh at them, i think. nothing more cruel. ANd thats satan i think. He wantes all the peple to suffer in hell. He wants a rebellion but he does it by leading them into sin. e leads us all into sin. ANd people? Probably people who just want everyone to suffer etc. Does this include himeslf? What if someone hates everything that he even hates himself? Does this add to the sin/evilness? Or what if someone wanted everyone to suffer except for him? Then hes selfish. But what if someone doesnt even like himself? What then?

ANd the thing with sin etc I think that when a person, how sinful he may be, decides to make a decison to stop that and become good and follow God God will allow him to become good and reach heaven. However since God is omniscient he already knows who will and who wont. SO he can make his plans and so on. And i think life of Paul is the best example. When i first read about him in the bible for children when i was small i wanted him to be stoned and die but then i read how he turned and it shocked me i didnt know it cud happen. SO i think if the person wants. This is because he accepts - admits hed sinned and wants to be good. And wants to be good forEVER, not just for a while. Hope thats quite right what my opinion is on it.

But why are sone people more evil that others in this world in terms of hw much they do? Id just say its the ffact they are given the ability to do so. Hitler was evil coz hje had power. So do all people like that. Who have the power, who were goven the possibility of being so evil. SOme people may hate the wordl even nore but cant show t because have no power. We tend to say persecuted are good and persecutors are evil. And the stanford prison xperiment shows how it was really like. Those to be in "evil positions" were evil. What if Hitler had been a persecuted rather than the Fuhrer? Whjat if he had not the power to decide? Wed say he wasnt evil - simply because God wouldnt have granted him the ability to do so, What about other people who would have been evil had they been goven the possibility but for example they are somwehere when they cant achieve what they want. Its all about this, and that is why God judges upon mind not actions, Were LIMITED to our actions by other people, government, physical laws etc. Eg someone wants to be evil kill others etc but doesnt do it, can we say hes less evil? NO id say but we may never know. The fact we KNOW hitler was evil becaues he was famous and decisions came from him. Other people in the world who we dont know of could be even more evil but just javent got the abilities to express it... My opinion o it at least.

[SnowDrops]

Think of the most "evil" person you can think of in history, or who you can conjure up in your imagination. Take Hitler, for example, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, or Dr. Mengele and his experimentation on live human beings, or imagine a human being who is essentially Satan who is highly responsible for the extreme amounts of pain and suffering in the world.

I think this is just the infinite love God offers us all. But i laso think thre is a linit how evil a person can be. At least my opinion on this. This is when one desires everyone to suffer eternally, all the people... and wants them evil, everyone to suffer in hell and him/her be able to watch and see them suffer and laugh at them, i think. nothing more cruel. ANd thats satan i think. He wantes all the peple to suffer in hell. He wants a rebellion but he does it by leading them into sin. e leads us all into sin. ANd people? Probably people who just want everyone to suffer etc. Does this include himeslf? What if someone hates everything that he even hates himself? Does this add to the sin/evilness? Or what if someone wanted everyone to suffer except for him? Then hes selfish. But what if someone doesnt even like himself? What then?

ANd the thing with sin etc I think that when a person, how sinful he may be, decides to make a decison to stop that and become good and follow God God will allow him to become good and reach heaven. However since God is omniscient he already knows who will and who wont. SO he can make his plans and so on. And i think life of Paul is the best example. When i first read about him in the bible for children when i was small i wanted him to be stoned and die but then i read how he turned and it shocked me i didnt know it cud happen. SO i think if the person wants. This is because he accepts - admits hed sinned and wants to be good. And wants to be good forEVER, not just for a while. Hope thats quite right what my opinion is on it.

But why are sone people more evil that others in this world in terms of hw much they do? Id just say its the ffact they are given the ability to do so. Hitler was evil coz hje had power. So do all people like that. Who have the power, who were goven the possibility of being so evil. SOme people may hate the wordl even nore but cant show t because have no power. We tend to say persecuted are good and persecutors are evil. And the stanford prison xperiment shows how it was really like. Those to be in "evil positions" were evil. What if Hitler had been a persecuted rather than the Fuhrer? Whjat if he had not the power to decide? Wed say he wasnt evil - simply because God wouldnt have granted him the ability to do so, What about other people who would have been evil had they been goven the possibility but for example they are somwehere when they cant achieve what they want. Its all about this, and that is why God judges upon mind not actions, Were LIMITED to our actions by other people, government, physical laws etc. Eg someone wants to be evil kill others etc but doesnt do it, can we say hes less evil? NO id say but we may never know. The fact we KNOW hitler was evil becaues he was famous and decisions came from him. Other people in the world who we dont know of could be even more evil but just javent got the abilities to express it... My opinion o it at least.

People aren't condemned because of what they do - they are condemned because of who they are.