Believe in God or go to Hell attitude - all wrong

[August]

Our friend Mark has some dilemmas here.

Firstly, he blames God for something that he refuses to believe. I wonder whose responsibility it is if one chooses not to do something.

Secondly, he has a glaring double standard. He requires direct and personal experiental evidence that God exists, while he holds that out of the chaos of the big bang, chemicals learned to reproduce. Unless he directly witnessed how the chemicals learned to reproduce, he is demanding a higher standard for the existence of God than he holds for his current position.

[Fortigurn]

If I was a God, the last thing I would want is to frighten people into believing in me by saying that the alternative is this bad place called Hell. it's like paying someone to like you etc.

I agree. I do not believe the Bible presents such a God.

What do you think the Bible presents then? Because simplistically, unless I have got it all wrong, if I don't believe in God, I am going to Hell, which in effect, is this blackmail/buy love thing.

A God who rewards all those who seek Him diligently, and who provides evidence for His existence, but who will not punish with eternal torment those who have never known Him.

You will live your life as you choose, go into the grave, and know no more. A very reasonable deal, you would agree.

[Byblos]

You will live your life as you choose, go into the grave, and know no more. A very reasonable deal, you would agree.

It is worth noting that the above is not an Orthodox Christian position. It is also worth noting that where you end up is a choice you make. Either you choose to be with God or you choose to be separated from him.

[Fortigurn]

You will live your life as you choose, go into the grave, and know no more. A very reasonable deal, you would agree.

It is worth noting that the above is not an Orthodox Christian position.

Define 'orthodox'.

It is also worth noting that where you end up is a choice you make. Either you choose to be with God or you choose to be separated from him.

Well that's a truism. Except for all those people who are supposedly going to burn in hell through no choice of their own, having never known God.

[Gman]

A God who rewards all those who seek Him diligently, and who provides evidence for His existence, but who will not punish with eternal torment those who have never known Him.

It should be noted here that WE send ourselves to hell... When a man goes to the gallows, he lifts up the black veil of his executioner only to find himself..

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Go in piece

Hey Gman, did you mean to say 'go in peace' or was that a Freudian slip?

LOL... Caught red handed.. I hate my 40's, I must be losing my touch... Peace brother..

[mark2123]

A God who rewards all those who seek Him diligently, and who provides evidence for His existence, but who will not punish with eternal torment those who have never known Him.

It should be noted here that WE send ourselves to hell... When a man goes to the gallows, he lifts up the black veil of his executioner only to find himself..

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Go in piece

That is absolutely rediculous. A man in the gallows has usually done something wrong first. Sure, if I choose not to believe in God, then I am making a choice, but what sort of choice is that - love and believe in me or burn in Hell?

To the guy who said that there is more to an existence that just living, enjoying oneself and dying because there has to be a point to it - I disagree. I have two rabbits in a hutch in my garden, they only know the boundaries of their world, i.e. my garden. They at least can believe in me because I show myself to them daily and feed them, yet what if they were talking to each other, saying, ah, although it is boring in here, at least when we die there will be something else, otherwise what is the point of this existence in ths here hutch - sorry, they are my pets and that is their point - they don't get any after. And neither do we - though I do not believe we are pets, we are just a collection of biological cells living and dying.

[mark2123]

If I was a God, the last thing I would want is to frighten people into believing in me by saying that the alternative is this bad place called Hell. it's like paying someone to like you etc.

I don't believe in God because I see no proof, only reasons not to believe. There being a God makes no sense to me. I believe that there is a scientific reason why we are all here and this God belief gives people something to cling on to - something to believe in.

In my experience, it is usually the worse off people who believe in God and all the commandments - because it makes them feel better for not having as much. The rest who are doing well and having a good time breaking the commandments are not likely to believe in them now are they?

I think that you get one chance in life to have a good time and if you spend too much of it living by the rules of God, you are going to miss out in the hope of the promise of something good when you are dead - which no-one can prove exists. To me, people who believe in God must have been brainwashed into his existence - how else can they believe - then just accept the word of others - yet, there are so many religions all with different beliefs and with different Gods - who's to say one is right and one is wrong?

If there was a God, why is he playing a game with us? I mean, I didn't choose to be born, yet i am to suffer a terrible fate at the end of my life if I believe what I read, because I choose not to accept a God. Why should I deserve that? Why doesn't he just show himself to us and let us all get on with out lives? If he made us as his pets or toys to watch and observe, that that is pretty [poop] given that eventually, he is going to allow most of us to go to Hell - who would do that and be thought of in a nice way?

Why to people pray? I hear that God does not interfere, hence 9/11 and other bad things, so what is the point of his existence? at least I know, mine, to have a good time while it lasts. I just feel sorry for the previous Pope who appeared to waste his whole life on something that doesn't exist.

I WILL believe that there is a God if he comes on down and shows himself. Why should the people of 2000 years ago get to see it for themselves in Jesus (if he was the son of God - just imagine him turning up today - locked in an asylum after 5 minutes) yet we have to imagine and have 'faith' - why should anyone expect me to take it on faith - WHY!?

You are right - there is a scientific reason why we all here. Funnily enough it points to an all powerful intelligent creator. If you dont buy that - then please explain to me all the fine tuning attributes of this universe that makes it perfect for life. Explain to me how that all came about by chance.

You say have a good life and be done with it. Well fine - but let me tell without a God everything the human race does is absolutely futile. Everything you do is futile and totally meaningless - because in the end you and your "Charitable" work will be forgotten, because there will be nothing to remember it. In your words we are a pointless fluke, an enoromous tradegy of nature that has been given an awareness of our own mortality and existence - the cruelest joke of all is on us, because in the end it all means nothing.

The universe is far to amazing a thing to believe that for a second - the earth is far too amazing a thing to believe that. This is not brainwashing as you so arrogantly put - this is common sense and logic. Do your research and see for your self where the scientific evidence leads at least before you make pointless comments like the one above.

Silvertusk

What makes this planet perfect for life is its random positioning in relation to the sun etc. With literally billions of planets in the universe, the law of averages says that some will be of the right climate and positioning to be able to habour life.

Everything is futile and meaningless? No, everything is just so while I am here to experience it. I work hard, spend a bit, save a bit, help others, do charity work, and am generally a good person - I make the most of what I have and me and my wife lead a decent life. But, we are to go and burn in hell - hardly very fair because I do not buy into something.

If believing in God is common sense and logic, then basically, you are making up something to fit a scenario. Its like saying that there must be cause to have effect and so some God must have started it all off. Listen, we know about 0.001% of what there is to know about science and there could be other universes, there could be something before the big bang, some asteroid could have brough life here, no-one can prove that just as no-one can prove or disprove the existence of God. But if having such a belief makes you happy and comfortable, then I'm pleased for you. But, don't expect me to believe in it and don't make it so sad that those who don't agree will burn in Hell. Why can't you people have your own belief without it having to be the downfall of everyone else who doesn't want to buy into it?

[mark2123]

I suspect you are arrogant. From the day we are born, we have x number of days to live. I believe that everyone should attempt to have a good time whilst on the planet and that includes helping others if they wish to do so (many people, including me, get satisfaction and enjoyment from helping others, hence, having a good time).

You did not answer my previous questions, so let me try this.

For some, raping babies is a good time, and it gives them great satisfaction. Is that right?

That is a pathetic analogy and pretty poor to be honest. Don't try to twist what I am saying - If I have to spell it out to you, having a good time means, leading a family life and doing whatever hobbies and interests give you satisfaction. Now if that means going to Church, then so be it. Clearly anyone who breaks the law is out of order and you and I both know that, so why bring that into it?

[August]

I suspect you are arrogant. From the day we are born, we have x number of days to live. I believe that everyone should attempt to have a good time whilst on the planet and that includes helping others if they wish to do so (many people, including me, get satisfaction and enjoyment from helping others, hence, having a good time).

You did not answer my previous questions, so let me try this.

For some, raping babies is a good time, and it gives them great satisfaction. Is that right?

That is a pathetic analogy and pretty poor to be honest. Don't try to twist what I am saying - If I have to spell it out to you, having a good time means, leading a family life and doing whatever hobbies and interests give you satisfaction. Now if that means going to Church, then so be it. Clearly anyone who breaks the law is out of order and you and I both know that, so why bring that into it?

No, it is not a poor analogy. In some societies raping babies is accepted practice as a cure for AIDS. It is obviously of benefit to both the society and the individual.

Ok, but if you want to play the law card, what about stoning people to death for not holding specific positions, like happens with shariah law. That is the law of the country, so in your book, it is ok, as long as you enjoy stoning people.

You also did not answer my previous questions. Shall we let it stand that you cannot do so?

[mark2123]

Seeing as you are well practised at defending the existence of God, as I would expect you have to be, lets just accept that having a good time means enjoying oneself within the law of where a person exists/lives, seeing as that is the most relevant place to them. I just want to enjoy my life and make the most of it - that's what I meant - not about what other people want to do.

Your other question - wait a sec and I'll go and see what it was.

[August]

Seeing as you are well practised at defending the existence of God, as I would expect you have to be, lets just accept that having a good time means enjoying oneself within the law of where a person exists/lives, seeing as that is the most relevant place to them. I just want to enjoy my life and make the most of it - that's what I meant - not about what other people want to do.

So you are ok with the raping of babies and the stoning of people for holding the wrong position as long as the law says it is ok?

How do you know that you are making the most of your life? Is that dependent on you, or others as well?

[mark2123]

Hi,

Not so much a scientific reason, but scientific explanation as to how we came to being - my the combination of chemicals billions of years ago that learned to reproduce and then evolve into what we all are today. He just happened - much as the big bang did and everything else is just history

So you have faith in something that "just happened"? It is "just history"?

But why did it just happen? Why is there something instead of nothing? Where did it all come from? How can chemicals "learn to reproduce?"

It still stands though that there are a lot more reasons not to believe in God than there are to believe - as far as I can see it. And, it is not logical for him to hide, expect us to just believe and punish us for not doing so - like I chose to be here in the first place, NOT!

Ok, so what would you regard as evidence for the existence of God?

I'm assuming you meant these questions?

The chemicals and reproduction thing is explained in Stephen Hawking's book A Brief History of Time - it's a good read. Chemicals, combined in a pre-biotic soup to eventually make up enough cells to form a type of pre-DNA. Evolution and the rest is history. Now, you are going to come back and say why do I believe that any more than in God, well, it is logical in that if you go backwards in evolution, you find less and less complicated being and cells, hence evolution. So it makes sense to me that the beginning started with single celled creatures. That to me makes more sense that some God looking over us all forcing nasty choices and condemning us for not believing - I made my choice so please accept that - I accept you made yours too.

Evidence as the exstence of God would be useful in that I would believe - is it so much to ask when it would mean me changing how I live in order to include God in my life?

In so few situations in life do we accept the word of people without proof, especially the more and more it has greater consequences. If I told you to jump off a cliff and that you would be caught half way down, handed £1m and then put carefully on the floor, you would'nt believe me or risk doing it. You would need some proof. Why not I also then?

[mark2123]

Seeing as you are well practised at defending the existence of God, as I would expect you have to be, lets just accept that having a good time means enjoying oneself within the law of where a person exists/lives, seeing as that is the most relevant place to them. I just want to enjoy my life and make the most of it - that's what I meant - not about what other people want to do.

So you are ok with the raping of babies and the stoning of people for holding the wrong position as long as the law says it is ok?

How do you know that you are making the most of your life? Is that dependent on you, or others as well?

Am I ok with the raping of babies? What do you think.

At what point have I said anything out this - you have. I keep telling you, but it's not sinking in is it, that I just want to lead a happy life for myself. I cannot stop people in Iran stoning others so there is little point in a big debate about the ethics of it.

[mark2123]

I've just received a yellow card from a moderator for having a debate with you guys as this forum is only for confirmed 'believers' or those seeking to believe. as I don't believe and no-one can convince me otherwise, I'm going to toodle-pip.

Bye.

[August]

Seeing as you are well practised at defending the existence of God, as I would expect you have to be, lets just accept that having a good time means enjoying oneself within the law of where a person exists/lives, seeing as that is the most relevant place to them. I just want to enjoy my life and make the most of it - that's what I meant - not about what other people want to do.

So you are ok with the raping of babies and the stoning of people for holding the wrong position as long as the law says it is ok?

How do you know that you are making the most of your life? Is that dependent on you, or others as well?

Am I ok with the raping of babies? What do you think.

At what point have I said anything out this - you have. I keep telling you, but it's not sinking in is it, that I just want to lead a happy life for myself. I cannot stop people in Iran stoning others so there is little point in a big debate about the ethics of it.

You said that as long as the law allowed it, you were ok with it.

lets just accept that having a good time means enjoying oneself within the law of where a person exists/lives, seeing as that is the most relevant place to them.

So it stands.