LYING: Is it something we should acoid??

[madscientist]

Hm the thing about jews was so shocking... ya but did the man do it because he wanted to save them - did he mean to save them by saying the truth? Dont think so...

And the absolute thing... so were then allowed to lie. didnt have time to finish the article... Ans this ABSOLUTE thing... i kno i may sound dumb but what exactly s the meaning of ABSOLUTE?? Opposite of relative? Or what exactly?? I quite never understood that word. (Im only 17..)
So are lies consdiered a sin when they harm someone only?

[Turgonian]

Hm the thing about jews was so shocking... ya but did the man do it because he wanted to save them - did he mean to save them by saying the truth? Dont think so...

He was trying to protect them. He was reasoning like this:
- Everything is in God's hands.
- I have to protect these Jews.
- God forbids us to lie.
- I have to follow God's commandments.
- God will never place us in a dilemma; He will rather provide a way out.
- I must tell the truth (but I really don't have to try to convince the Nazis!) and place the Jews' fate in God's hands.

And God protected them...

And the absolute thing... so were then allowed to lie. didnt have time to finish the article... Ans this ABSOLUTE thing... i kno i may sound dumb but what exactly s the meaning of ABSOLUTE?? Opposite of relative? Or what exactly?? I quite never understood that word. (Im only 17..)

Absolute means: valid everywhere in every situation. If the commandment to not lie is absolute, then you must NEVER EVER lie no matter what. The man who hid the Jews took this rigidly absolute view of the Ten Commandments.
'Graded absolutism' says that the Ten Commandments are not THAT absolute. There are two REALLY absolute commandments: 1) love God and 2) love your neighbour. So if you have the choice between lying and betraying someone, you reason: lying is forbidden; but if I would tell the truth, I wouldn't be merciful. Mercy always takes precedence; therefore, in this particular situation, I am allowed to tell a lie.

So are lies consdiered a sin when they harm someone only?

No. I think telling 'white lies' is sinful too. You're not directly harming anyone when you say something which you don't believe but which they want to hear -- but I still think it's wrong.
Think of it like this: lying is wrong, except to save a person from terrible things he hasn't deserved.

[madscientist]

Hm the thing about jews was so shocking... ya but did the man do it because he wanted to save them - did he mean to save them by saying the truth? Dont think so...

He was trying to protect them. He was reasoning like this:
- Everything is in God's hands.
- I have to protect these Jews.
- God forbids us to lie.
- I have to follow God's commandments.
- God will never place us in a dilemma; He will rather provide a way out.
- I must tell the truth (but I really don't have to try to convince the Nazis!) and place the Jews' fate in God's hands.

And God protected them...

Thats a good way of reasoning but it doesnt always work. Thats the thing...

So are lies consdiered a sin when they harm someone only?

No. I think telling 'white lies' is sinful too. You're not directly harming anyone when you say something which you don't believe but which they want to hear -- but I still think it's wrong.
Think of it like this: lying is wrong, except to save a person from terrible things he hasn't deserved.

So u should tell truth almost every time, thats what i think then... OK but for example what if the truth would hurt the person in a bad way - eg that he has a trauma or something like that and telling another sad thing would make him suffer. Can we say its all right, postpone the truth and say it in a time more adequate? Eg i have some problems etc but dont want to tell someone its bad an so coy i know thez wujdnt do much and feel bad etc - and cause them worries. The person could for example feel deceived or so but there are times when we tell someone something it would be bad so we find another time... and at the time we say its not as bad not to make him worries. Is that a reasonable way of dealing with that? In that case its not really mercy but making someone suffer when he already has enough problems can be really bad.
Or, can I for example, tell lie when in a group because I dont want to feel bad for myslef and others ? Not to cause shame on a person, say the person is actually better than he is not to cause him shame? Or, if talking about myself, can i tell later to some people the truth but say i didnt want everyone in the group to know it? IS that adequate as a way of dealign? Eg not to cause someone shame or bad opinion about him?

Any thoughts?