Is there a spiritual explanation for this?

[identity_in_development]

Is there a spiritual explanation for this? (Need to log in for access?)

[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/healt ... wanted=all]Out-of-Body Experience? Your Brain Is to Blame[/url]

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By SANDRA BLAKESLEE
Published: October 3, 2006

They are eerie sensations, more common than one might think: A man describes feeling a shadowy figure standing behind him, then turning around to find no one there. A woman feels herself leaving her body and floating in space, looking down on her corporeal self.

Such experiences are often attributed by those who have them to paranormal forces.

But according to recent work by neuroscientists, they can be induced by delivering mild electric current to specific spots in the brain. In one woman, for example, a zap to a brain region called the angular gyrus resulted in a sensation that she was hanging from the ceiling, looking down at her body. In another woman, electrical current delivered to the angular gyrus produced an uncanny feeling that someone was behind her, intent on interfering with her actions.

The two women were being evaluated for epilepsy surgery at University Hospital in Geneva, where doctors implanted dozens of electrodes into their brains to pinpoint the abnormal tissue causing the seizures and to identify adjacent areas involved in language, hearing or other essential functions that should be avoided in the surgery. As each electrode was activated, stimulating a different patch of brain tissue, the patient was asked to say what she was experiencing.

Dr. Olaf Blanke, a neurologist at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne in Switzerland who carried out the procedures, said that the women had normal psychiatric histories and that they were stunned by the bizarre nature of their experiences.

The Sept. 21 issue of Nature magazine includes an account by Dr. Blanke and his colleagues of the woman who sensed a shadow person behind her. They described the out-of-body experiences in the February 2004 issue of the journal Brain.

There is nothing mystical about these ghostly experiences, said Peter Brugger, a neuroscientist at University Hospital in Zurich, who was not involved in the experiments but is an expert on phantom limbs, the sensation of still feeling a limb that has been amputated, and other mind-bending phenomena.

“The research shows that the self can be detached from the body and can live a phantom existence on its own, as in an out-of-body experience, or it can be felt outside of personal space, as in a sense of a presence,” Dr. Brugger said.

Scientists have gained new understanding of these odd bodily sensations as they have learned more about how the brain works, Dr. Blanke said. For example, researchers have discovered that some areas of the brain combine information from several senses. Vision, hearing and touch are initially processed in the primary sensory regions. But then they flow together, like tributaries into a river, to create the wholeness of a person's perceptions. A dog is visually recognized far more quickly if it is simultaneously accompanied by the sound of its bark.

These multisensory processing regions also build up perceptions of the body as it moves through the world, Dr. Blanke said. Sensors in the skin provide information about pressure, pain, heat, cold and similar sensations. Sensors in the joints, tendons and bones tell the brain where the body is positioned in space. Sensors in the ears track the sense of balance. And sensors in the internal organs, including the heart, liver and intestines, provide a readout of a person's emotional state.

Real-time information from the body, the space around the body and the subjective feelings from the body are also represented in multisensory regions, Dr. Blanke said. And if these regions are directly simulated by an electric current, as in the cases of the two women he studied, the integrity of the sense of body can be altered.

As an example, Dr. Blanke described the case of a 22-year-old student who had electrodes implanted into the left side of her brain in 2004.

“We were checking language areas,” Dr. Blanke said, when the woman turned her head to the right. That made no sense, he said, because the electrode was nowhere near areas involved in the control of movement. Instead, the current was stimulating a multisensory area called the angular gyrus.

Dr. Blanke applied the current again. Again, the woman turned her head to the right. “Why are you doing this?” he asked.

The woman replied that she had a weird sensation that another person was lying beneath her on the bed. The figure, she said, felt like a “shadow” that did not speak or move; it was young, more like a man than a woman, and it wanted to interfere with her.

When Dr. Blanke turned off the current, the woman stopped looking to the right, and said the strange presence had gone away. Each time he reapplied the current, she once again turned her head to try to see the shadow figure.

When the woman sat up, leaned forward and hugged her knees, she said that she felt as if the shadow man was also sitting and that he was clasping her in his arms. She said it felt unpleasant. When she held a card in her right hand, she reported that the shadow figure tried to take it from her. “He doesn't want me to read,” she said.

Because the presence closely mimicked the patient's body posture and position, Dr. Blanke concluded that the patient was experiencing an unusual perception of her own body, as a double. But for reasons that scientists have not been able to explain, he said, she did not recognize that it was her own body she was sensing.

The feeling of a shadowy presence can occur without electrical stimulation to the brain, Dr. Brugger said. It has been described by people who undergo sensory deprivation, as in mountaineers trekking at high altitude or sailors crossing the ocean alone, and by people who have suffered minor strokes or other disruptions in blood flow to the brain.

Six years ago, another of Dr. Blanke's patients underwent brain stimulation to a different multisensory area, the angular gyrus, which blends vision with the body sense. The patient experienced a complete out-of-body experience.

When the current flowed, she said: “I am at the ceiling. I am looking down at my legs.”

When the current ceased, she said: “I'm back on the table now. What happened?”

Further applications of the current returned the woman to the ceiling, causing her to feel as if she were outside of her body, floating, her legs dangling below her. When she closed her eyes, she had the sensation of doing sit-ups, with her upper body approaching her legs.

Because the woman's felt position in space and her actual position in space did not match, her mind cast about for the best way to turn her confusion into a coherent experience, Dr. Blanke said. She concluded that she must be floating up and away while looking downward.

Some schizophrenics, Dr. Blanke said, experience paranoid delusions and the sense that someone is following them. They also sometimes confuse their own actions with the actions of other people. While the cause of these symptoms is not known, he said, multisensory processing areas may be involved.

When otherwise normal people experience bodily delusions, Dr. Blanke said, they are often flummoxed. The felt sensation of the body is so seamless, so familiar, that people do not realize it is a creation of the brain, even when something goes wrong and the brain is perturbed.

Yet the sense of body integrity is rather easily duped, Dr. Blanke said.

And while it may be tempting to invoke the supernatural when this body sense goes awry, he said the true explanation is a very natural one, the brain's attempt to make sense of conflicting information.

Correction: Oct. 10, 2006

An article in Science Times last Tuesday about a neurological explanation for out-of-body experiences omitted the name of a brain region that produces such sensations. It is the temporal parietal junction. (The angular gyrus, which was named in the article, is part of the temporal parietal junction.[url][/url][img][/img][url][/url]

[omimanordude]

identity_in_development, thank you for the article. I can see that you want some meaningful "Christian" explaination? Well, what exactly are you asking though? If you are implying that we can see certain things and feel certains things because of our brains, that seems just fine. But many people use this same approach (with the info that you posted), and say that the miracles of Jesus would be this same effect. Just saying, that it is utterly impossible to have multitudes of people all experiencing these paranormal forces all at once. They all broke bread and fish as it multiplied, and all saw the miracles that Jesus performed. Jesus appeared to a few people, and if you read in Acts, Cornellius had a vision just as Peter did, and they made sense together and matched in meaning. Can these forces go long distances? I don't think that they all had the same paranormal experience at the same time now.

Though I do not know what exactly to say concerning why this can happen to us, I do know that the complexity of the brain is another bit of evidence that we are NOT from monkeys or chimps or little cells or whatever these "scientists" come up with nowadays (no offense ). Anyone want to expand on the human brain?

[identity_in_development]

[quote="omimanordude"]identity_in_development, thank you for the article. I can see that you want some meaningful "Christian" explaination? Well, what exactly are you asking though? If you are implying that we can see certain things and feel certains things because of our brains, that seems just fine. But many people use this same approach (with the info that you posted), and say that the miracles of Jesus would be this same effect. Just saying, that it is utterly impossible to have multitudes of people all experiencing these paranormal forces all at once. They all broke bread and fish as it multiplied, and all saw the miracles that Jesus performed. Jesus appeared to a few people, and if you read in Acts, Cornellius had a vision just as Peter did, and they made sense together and matched in meaning. Can these forces go long distances? I don't think that they all had the same paranormal experience at the same time now.

Though I do not know what exactly to say concerning why this can happen to us, I do know that the complexity of the brain is another bit of evidence that we are NOT from monkeys or chimps or little cells or whatever these "scientists" come up with nowadays (no offense ). Anyone want to expand on the human brain?[/quote]

Heh, actually, I have no complaints about the idea that Jesus did miracles. There are plenty of stories about other ancients with who did impossible things, what Jesus did was awesome, to be sure, but he wasn't the only one - and I as far as I'm concerned, I either believe all the stories or none of them... and believing in none of them bores life up a bit.

Also, all life starts as a single cell then divides itself over and over. It's like a little mini-fast-evolution.

I actually just wanted to express a simplistic thought regarding phenomena associated to this research. But I guess I'll be satisfied just saying that there are physiological and psychological pathways which explain the human desire for metaphysical knowledge. Some things are beyond the biblical and religious scope - and the explanation of human behavior from a PHYSIOLOGICAL standpoint is one of those things. Motivation, complicated as it is in it's manifestation, has a biological pathway from the level of atoms, to chemicals, to neurons, to a collection of neurons, to neural networks. Likewise for movement. Likewise, for the feeling of happiness and contentment.

I wonder how many Christians have thought that something evil was following them, saw a flash of light, or saw themselves assending to heaven... when in fact, they were just have a seizure located somewhere in their brain.

It's food for thought. Or... just don't think about it and disregard the dissonance.

[Canuckster1127]

Heh, actually, I have no complaints about the idea that Jesus did miracles. There are plenty of stories about other ancients with who did impossible things, what Jesus did was awesome, to be sure, but he wasn't the only one - and I as far as I'm concerned, I either believe all the stories or none of them... and believing in none of them bores life up a bit. Wink

This is a fallacy in my opinion. You lump everything together with an all or nothing directive. It would seem to me more reasonable to take each instance one at a time and base your evaluation upon the quality of the evidence.[/quote]

[identity_in_development]

[quote="Canuckster1127"][quote] Heh, actually, I have no complaints about the idea that Jesus did miracles. There are plenty of stories about other ancients with who did impossible things, what Jesus did was awesome, to be sure, but he wasn't the only one - and I as far as I'm concerned, I either believe all the stories or none of them... and believing in none of them bores life up a bit. Wink [/quote]

This is a fallacy in my opinion. You lump everything together with an all or nothing directive. It would seem to me more reasonable to take each instance one at a time and base your evaluation upon the quality of the evidence.[/quote]

Right. Actually it's a specific adaptive tool I use only in regard something like this. So what do I do when I have reasonable doubt regarding every source, the bible especially?

The following is a rhetorical question, so avoid a "yes, because you'll be condemned to hell" response please. But, based on what you said, would you say that it's Ok for me to NOT believe a source based on reasonable doubt, yet believe a different yet equal source while ignoring the reasons to doubt?

[Canuckster1127]

Heh, actually, I have no complaints about the idea that Jesus did miracles. There are plenty of stories about other ancients with who did impossible things, what Jesus did was awesome, to be sure, but he wasn't the only one - and I as far as I'm concerned, I either believe all the stories or none of them... and believing in none of them bores life up a bit. Wink

This is a fallacy in my opinion. You lump everything together with an all or nothing directive. It would seem to me more reasonable to take each instance one at a time and base your evaluation upon the quality of the evidence.

Right. Actually it's a specific adaptive tool I use only in regard something like this. So what do I do when I have reasonable doubt regarding every source, the bible especially?

The following is a rhetorical question, so avoid a "yes, because you'll be condemned to hell" response please. But, based on what you said, would you say that it's Ok for me to NOT believe a source based on reasonable doubt, yet believe a different yet equal source while ignoring the reasons to doubt?

I would ask why you have the need to assign the same thinking across the board instead of examining the individual support for different cases.

You seem to assuming a lot here; including what you anticipated my response to be.

I assume you believe Julius Caesar was a real historical figure with actions and words preserved in History that we can reasonably presume and make conclusions drawn upon those things?

If you wish, as an example, to equate the resurrection claim of Christianity for Jesus Christ to a similar mythology, say for instance similar to Apollo in Greek tradition and then assert that because they are similar in claim that the quality of their evidence must be the same then I would state that you are employing a fallacious form of circular reasoning which makes that assertion based upon an already made up mind that resurrection is not possible based upon your understanding of science and your experience or some such similar basis.

What would be more reasonable, in my opinion, would be to look at the historical evidence for the claim of Christ's resurrection in a similar vein to what you would employ to assertain the reliability or probability of any other historical event from that time in history and see how well it supports that conclusion and then follow the evidence where it leads.

Just lumping things together and rejecting them en masse doesn't really have a lot to argue for it in terms of reason and a willingness to have an open mind and look at the evidence without jumping ahead to conclusions which haven't really been looked at. Claiming it is appropriate in one special circumstance such as this, while recognizing it as fallacious in others doesn't have a lot to argue for it in my opinion.

What do you think?

[Fortigurn]

This is a fascinating article, which helps prove that the (immaterial), consciousness is a product of the (material), brain. It also demonstrates how consciousness and conscious perception is affected by material changes in the environment.

[Canuckster1127]

This is a fascinating article, which helps prove that the (immaterial), consciousness is a product of the (material), brain. It also demonstrates how consciousness and conscious perception is affected by material changes in the environment.

Does a partial explanation in this realm however, which I agree is an element, provide a reasonable basis upon which to reject, discount or diminish the supernatural. Perhaps it reflects design with intent to support the belief and acceptance of these elements as evidence that we are more than the physical compenents that comprise us.

[Fortigurn]

This is a fascinating article, which helps prove that the (immaterial), consciousness is a product of the (material), brain. It also demonstrates how consciousness and conscious perception is affected by material changes in the environment.

Does a partial explanation in this realm however, which I agree is an element, provide a reasonable basis upon which to reject, discount or diminish the supernatural. Perhaps it reflects design with intent to support the belief and acceptance of these elements as evidence that we are more than the physical compenents that comprise us.

I don't think the article has anything to say about the supernatural, though the results do pose interesting questions for those who believe in the 'immortal soul' (a doctrine which maintains that the consciousness is not a product of the brain, but independent of the body).

[identity_in_development]

Canuckster, great questions and great insight.

I intend to respond to your questions more completely, but a prelude to why I “lump”, in regards to religious belief, is for a few reasons: the variance between myths and religions becomes easier to sort out, allowing for the high likelihood that there is no one true religion (which is the claim, historically, that leads to some kind of destruction), and it gives the benefit of doubt to religious belief, where otherwise I would give it none.

Before I go into more detail though, I want to give you a more appropriate and parallel example of what I'm referencing in regards to what I said earlier about not believing a source (story or myth) based on reasonable doubt, yet believing a different yet equal source (story or myth) while ignoring the reasons to doubt.

The link I'm giving will, undoubtedly, be read by you with the utmost criticism — good while evaluating credibility. After reading for a bit, you'll probably notice how close-minded you are to the information, and you'll probably start thinking about how ridiculous it is that you're reading it. Yet, all the information will seem so familiar despite it's foreign content. And this will provoke a scenario similar to what I was talking about just previously in my last paragraph.

Please follow to this link: http://www.answers.com/topic/apollonius-of-tyana

Discuss your findings, concerns, etc — and perhaps we should consider moving this discussion to a new thread..?

[Canuckster1127]

Canuckster, great questions and great insight.

I intend to respond to your questions more completely, but a prelude to why I “lump”, in regards to religious belief, is for a few reasons: the variance between myths and religions becomes easier to sort out, allowing for the high likelihood that there is no one true religion (which is the claim, historically, that leads to some kind of destruction), and it gives the benefit of doubt to religious belief, where otherwise I would give it none.

Before I go into more detail though, I want to give you a more appropriate and parallel example of what I'm referencing in regards to what I said earlier about not believing a source (story or myth) based on reasonable doubt, yet believing a different yet equal source (story or myth) while ignoring the reasons to doubt.

The link I'm giving will, undoubtedly, be read by you with the utmost criticism — good while evaluating credibility. After reading for a bit, you'll probably notice how close-minded you are to the information, and you'll probably start thinking about how ridiculous it is that you're reading it. Yet, all the information will seem so familiar despite it's foreign content. And this will provoke a scenario similar to what I was talking about just previously in my last paragraph.

Please follow to this link: http://www.answers.com/topic/apollonius-of-tyana

Discuss your findings, concerns, etc — and perhaps we should consider moving this discussion to a new thread..?

I'll read it when I have some time to give that I can be focused which may be a bit.

I'm already pretty aware of the subject matter based upon the title.

So you're aware, and I'm not saying this to boast or imply that I have any great authority in this area, I have the equivilent of a BA in Biblical Literature with studies in hermeneutics, and koine greek. My focus in the degree was in the synoptic gospels with a senior thesis done on the Nag Hammadi codex which included the Gospel of Thomas. At the time the text was in Coptic egyptian which is an Egyptian dialect which used the greek alphabet.

We have some common ground in terms of other areas as well. I'm in the midst of an MS degree in Organizational Leadership which is a psychology degree which incoporates some of the disciplines for which you appear to be involved.

All this to say, as we don't know each other very well, this is an area which I have looked at including issues such as we are discussing.

Perhaps we could suspend the formalities of presuming that the other must be ignorant of things in order to hold to thier position and deal with the actual questions rather than dancing around things.

Feel free to share some of your background as well and we can go from there. In the meantime, I'll do you the courtesy of reading and responding to your article and I'll appreciate it if you'll give some thought to my questions and interact with them as well.

Bart

[Canuckster1127]

This is a fascinating article, which helps prove that the (immaterial), consciousness is a product of the (material), brain. It also demonstrates how consciousness and conscious perception is affected by material changes in the environment.

Does a partial explanation in this realm however, which I agree is an element, provide a reasonable basis upon which to reject, discount or diminish the supernatural. Perhaps it reflects design with intent to support the belief and acceptance of these elements as evidence that we are more than the physical compenents that comprise us.

I don't think the article has anything to say about the supernatural, though the results do pose interesting questions for those who believe in the 'immortal soul' (a doctrine which maintains that the consciousness is not a product of the brain, but independent of the body).

I agree the article itself doesn't go there.

I think you're very much oversimplifying the doctrine of immortal soul as well at least as I understand it in the context of the triune composition of man as body, soul and spirit. Some of that may be due to the change in context of the argument as scientific knowledge increases.

Science has some insights to offer in terms of mechanics which are interesting and helpful and may even help to frame the question a little differently. Reducing it down to simply the physical elements, which is all science can deal with directly however, loses some essential elements in my opinion.

[identity_in_development]

Canuckster,
All presumptions of ignorance have been suspended. So apologies, it sounds like you're well versed in this subject matter and I could probably learn something from you - which I'm completely open to. I am familiar with hermeneutics, koine greek and the synoptic gospels; but I'm sure you have some insights that would be good for me to hear.

[Turgonian]

I don't think the article has anything to say about the supernatural, though the results do pose interesting questions for those who believe in the 'immortal soul' (a doctrine which maintains that the consciousness is not a product of the brain, but independent of the body).

Like Canuckster said, you're oversimplifying the doctrine. Of course the soul 'uses' our brain; we already knew for a while that our brains did the thinking, didn't we?

But if you're interested, you might take a look at this 40-page article:

Is there evidence for the existence of the 'soul'?

[charlottecowell]

I've had a few of out of body experiences (the last one about 3 years ago) and I've also both seen, heard and felt (as a force or energy) someone else's 'spirit' or astral body, or however you want to call it, which was very unusual indeed. This happened on several occasions but always with the same person....

I wouldn't know whether to attribute this to God, the devil, spirituality, emotions, neuroscience or whatever, but I can say that with respect to the other person, he was an intensely spiritual character - you could even use the word 'powerful' to describe him in this respect. In fact, it was partly because of him that I 'found Jesus', he definitely had a major role to play in my conversion.

And no, I wasn't under the influence of drugs, although in the case of one of the out of body experiences I was extremely drunk, which makes me think I must have had alcohol poisoning on that occasion. It seemed no less real for it but didn't last very long. On another occasion I made a very deliberate and concerted effort to 'get out' of my body because I knew it was possible. I did it one Sunday afternoon.

The process involved sending my body completely to sleep (the eyes are the hardest part as they flicker) whilst retaining consciousness (this is the trick as mostly you end up just falling asleep), and then I used my right arm as a lever to pull my 'spirit' self from my sleeping body. There was a lot of resistance, it felt like I was tied by a very strong bungee cord to the back of the bed, hence the need for leverage. When I 'got out', I first clung to the end of the bed to stop this 'bungee cord' snapping me back into place. Then, when I relaxed the tension released and I could move freely. I then wanted to be outside the bedroom, where I arrived as soon as I had the thought, and the state of my vision was interesting - it was like looking through a telescope that made things seem further away, with no peripheral vision - literally, it was like having tunnel vision and I wasn't immediately aware of colour.

I'm going to stop now because this will be a very long, probably very boring story if I carry on with it, as it was such a subjective experience, but I thought I'd share the perspective....