more mormon heresy

[Gman]

Again you are wrong. Allow me to tell you what the LDS church believes, ad I am a member of it. Joseph Smith and many other early church leaders certainly did call the hill from which the gold plates were taken Cumorah, but it is not recorded in any official statement that it was the same Cumorah where those battles took place. It is a common belief among LDS scholars that there are two Hill Cumorahs, one where the battles took place, and one where Joseph extracted the plates.

Sargon, sorry to keep beating up on you but you are wrong... Even if you are saying there are two hills now, they were not in Central America.. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah (in New York) to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Was your prophet wrong?

As you stated, "If Joseph Smith believed the original Hill Cumorah to be the very one from which he took the plates, he would have been contradicting the text of the Book of Mormon."

Please read the history on the Hill of Cumorah and Joseph Smith's claims:

//www.utlm.org/onlineresources/cumorah.htm

or

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_Cumorah


Smith visited this Hill of Cumorah in NY each year on the fall equinox (September 21, 22, 23 or 24) between 1823 and 1827 and claimed to be instructed by "holy messengers."

Please also read Wikipedia's view on archeology and the BoM:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

Also here is a reference of Joseph Smith putting the Garden of Eden in Missouri, not Central America..

//www.utlm.org/onlineresources/gardenofeden.htm

Again a common anti-mormon misunderstanding. The Book of Mormon NEVER says anything about North America. It never says anything about South America, or Central America. It only uses the names that the ancients used, long long before Columbus ever set foot here. They mention many lands, cities, rivers, hills, and other geographical places, but those were names given thousands of years ago and in languages that are not known. We simply do not know where they are.
However, as the years go by more and more is being discovered that has become very strong archaelogical evidence for the veracity of the Book of Mormon. The amount of evidence is so great that it is not expedient to post it here. If the Book of Mormon were false, you would expect it to be the exact opposite, that over the years more evidence would be found against the Book of Mormon. The only things that have changed are the anti-mormon tactics.

Again you are wrong... Or Joseph Smith was wrong in his locations... Was he? Also why doesn't the Smithsonian or National Geographic support these claims even if most LDS believe the evidence is found in Central America? I'm sorry Sargon... Not even the well known archaeologists will touch the BoM claims...

Also in 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York. This is not to be disputed..

"The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon." (in Mormon 6:6).

[Gman]

What is important is what the Book of Mormon actually teaches, not what early interpretations of it were. If Joseph Smith believed the original Hill Cumorah to be the very one from which he took the plates, he would have been contradicting the text of the Book of Mormon.

Oh Sargon, again I'm sorry... In the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith does say EXACTLY where the Hill of Cumorah was.. In his testimony in the very front of the BoM before the book of Nephi 1, he states that it was in the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York (in red). Not in Central America.. Didn't I tell you I own a copy of the BoM?



Here is Joseph's testimony word for word... I scanned it from the BoM... The messenger Moroni told him where the plates were... In the state of New York..

"I obeyed, I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger. I left the field, and went to the place where the messenger had told me the plates were deposited, and owing to the distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning it, I knew the place the instant that I arrived there."

"Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited In a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding In the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth."

"Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there Indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box In which they lay was formed by laying stones together In some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them."

The book of Mormon itself however specifically states that the plates were not buried in the hill Cumorah.

Wrong... Now let's see what the Book of Mormon says about these plates...

Mormon 6:6

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Sargon, I don't know how you are going to get out of this one...

[Fortigurn]

Sargon, it's pretty clear that you're playing fast and loose not only with your own church's teachings, but with their history.

It's very significant that you haven't quoted any of the first 'prophets' of your church, or the earliest teachings and authoratative writings. The reason for this is that they contradict your claims.

[Gman]

Again a common anti-mormon misunderstanding. The Book of Mormon NEVER says anything about North America. It never says anything about South America, or Central America.

Not to pour any more salt on the wound here, but here is a picture from the Book of Mormon showing maps of the New York-Ohio area (page 296) in Northern America where the hill of Cumorah was at Manchester, NY.. Included is a map of the Missouri-Illinois area (page 297) where the supposed Garden of Eden (Zion) was...

These maps of North America are pages from 295 to 298 and are endorsed by the BYU Geography Department. The Book of Mormon that I have was published in 1985.. Please see the attached picture that I scanned... Let me know if you want more pictures of it...

[Sargon]

Have you ever seen the old Disney movie "The Little Mermaid"? Remember when that big ugly ocotpus woman sings "Poor Unfortunate Souls!!" That is how I feel right now.

You folks believe you have got it in the bag. Again you have failed for not properly understand the Book of Mormon, or the LDS religion. I must hand it to you though, you were very well documented.

I am actually very busy this week and next with finals, so I wont be able to get to everything written, but I will start.

In regard to what the official position of the LDS church has been concerning the exact whereabouts of the events described in the Book of Mormon over the course of the history of the church, I have repeatedly stated that no declaration has ever been issued proclaiming a divine revelation on this issue.. Fortigurn supposedly gave me a dose of my own medicine by quoting a web site that I furnished.

Quote:
Many early leaders of the Church simply assumed that the Book of Mormon dealt with all of the Americas and all of the ancestors of the Indians.

When information about Mesoamerica became available in the 1840s, there was keen interest in Mesoamerica as the possible location of the Book of Mormon, as we will see below, but this interest faded as the Church faced more serious issues: the martyrdom of Joseph, crossing the plains, struggling for survival against pressures from the US government, etc.

It was not until well into this century that the issue of Book of Mormon geography became a topic for serious study, and then many scholars and thinkers realized that old assumptions needed to be revisited. The result has been an increasing consensus for a limited geography in Mesoamerica.

The quoted text supports my position. Assumptions have been made, personal opinions have been formulated, but never has the church decreed that the Lord has spoken on this subject. Just as the article above says, in the early days of the church MesoAmerica was being investigated by curious LDS, but those curiosities were dulled by the events of the era.

It's clear that this 'Meso-America' position is a novelty in the history of your church.

You state this as if you learned this from the article above, which explicitly contradicts your statement. You didnt bother to see what he wrote below.

Quote:
There is no need to prove what Joseph Smith thought about the location of the events in the BoM.


Yes there is, because you have claimed that he accurately described Meso-America.

The Book of Mormon does accurately describe MesoAmerican culture, or the little we know of it now. The miracle is that Joseph Smith knew nothing of the region. Hardly anyone did. Only generations later were we able to finally discover that the Book of Mormon is very compatible with MesoAmerica. Joseph Smith merely translated the plates, but the plates say nothing about which part of the continent the stories took place.

Quote:
There are recorded statements made by his contemporaries who believed the events occured in Meso-America, which was part of your original question.


I'm afraid this does not actually address my original question (I asked for quotes specifically from Joseph Smith and the LDS leadership teaching that Meso-America was the site described in the Book of Mormon). There is abundant evidence that North America was taught as the location of the events of the Book of Mormon by the LDS leadership.

You are not getting it. You seem to be taking the position that early LDS leaders believed that N. America was the setting, which is not correct. There were many that believed that North and South America were the setting, but not strictly N. America as you have implied. I do not deny that many believed that the continent of N. America as a whole was part of the setting, but I do reject your claim that it was thought to be the entire setting.
The contemporaries of J. Smith that I referenced to were early LDS leaders. I should have told you that.

A few statements here and there by other individuals with private opinions differing from that taught dominantly by the leadership, are irrelevant. Your own link made it clear that the North America view was the view which was taught.

No, the link made it clear that a hemispherical setting was assumed, not a North America setting. That is the difference I have been advocating.
Yes, we of course officially espouse the idea that events happened on the American Continent, instead of in asia or africa. But aside from that we have no official position on which part of the continent, North, South, or Central.
You misrepresent my statements here:

You say yourself:

Quote:
It is seen that many, and maybe most, believed that the events occured on a hemispherical setting...


But then you claim:

Quote:
...but no evidence suggests that you are correct in stating that the LDS church has consistently believed that the events all happened on the N. American half.

I did say that many, maybe most believed in a hemispherical setting, but that is not the same thing as the N. America setting you have preached. A hemispherical setting includes S. America, with central America being the "narrow neck of land" often referred to in the Book of Mormon.
By quoting a FAIR apologist you have not shown that the Church has taught a hemispherical theory. You have only shown that a majority of members assumed it.

Since the days of Joseph Smith most Saints believed that the Book of Mormon took place across the entire expanse of North and South America.

I see nothing in here indicating that the church held a position. Many leaders held this opinion, but not all. Certainly the church made no decree that this was what the Lord had revealed to the prophet.

On the topic of transliteration, translation, and interpretation let us define the words.
In using the word transliteration, I have meant it in the sense of transcription(writing the original words in the characters of a different language while still preserving the original sound) For example, Germany is not a transcription of Deutchsland, while Italy is a transcription of Italia.
Mormon is a transcription of Mormon, Nephi of Nephi, and Alma of Alma. The Book of Mormon is full of names that maintain a similar pronunciation as the original, instead of translating them into the English version. It is like keeping Maria Maria, instead of changing it to Mary. This feat was accomplished by inspiration, because J. Smith did not know semitic languages. As I mentioned before, almost everyone of those names has been traced to a Semitic root, something impossible for J. Smith to have done were he making the book up out of his head.

Quote:
The Book of Mormon is full of evidence that it is an ancient document, written in the Americas. You only have to read it.


I have read a lot of it. I saw no reference to Meso-America, and no evidence that it was an ancient document written in the Americas.

You have not studied the peculiar similarities in sentence structure, puncuation, and grammar between the Book of Mormon and semitic languages, the family of languages the BoM claims to have been written in.

Mixed in with all those transliterations(transcriptions) we find the majority of the text written in pure english. That was translated, again by divine inspiration. So, most of the names were transcribed, while the text almost fully translated. Both accomplished by revelation.
This theory is not a final LDS position either. It is probable, and has much evidence. However I am not a linguist and the church has not declared this position on the process of how J. Smith translated the BoM.

Since it has been only in the last 30 years that the new ideas of where the events of the Book of Mormon took place have emerged, this does not surprise me

.
Again you are contradicting the qoutes you provided from the link. He specifically said that early LDS members and leaders considered Meso-America as a strong candidate for the events in the BoM.

To say that 'that perspective was not introduced merely 22 years ago' is highly disingenous. It was indeed introduced in the 19th century, but it was not taken up or supported by the LDS church, which threw its weight behind the 'North and South America' view.

Threw its weight? Because some of the leaders agreed with it? If the church honestly claimed to know by revelation , they would have issued it as a doctrine. That was not done.
There is much more to cover, but this is a start. I appreciate all the responses. Please have patience, it may be a few days before I can get back to you.

Sargon

[Fortigurn]

You folks believe you have got it in the bag. Again you have failed for not properly understand the Book of Mormon, or the LDS religion. I must hand it to you though, you were very well documented.

Yes we have it in the bag, and the reason for this is that we have a lot of the relevant documentation (the documentation you consistently avoid referring to). This is not a matter of misunderstanding the Book of Mormon or the LDS religion. It's a simple matter of comparing what has been taught in the past to what is being increasingly promoted now.

In regard to what the official position of the LDS church has been concerning the exact whereabouts of the events described in the Book of Mormon over the course of the history of the church, I have repeatedly stated that no declaration has ever been issued proclaiming a divine revelation on this issue.

Again, this is disingenous. It's as bad as the Catholics, who say 'It was never defined infallibly' when it is pointed out that they are now abandoning a doctrine their church taught for centuries and concerning which obedience and faith were required.

Since it wasn't the subject of a divine revelation, why was it taught by your church for so long, and why is it still taught in your church?

The quoted text supports my position. Assumptions have been made, personal opinions have been formulated, but never has the church decreed that the Lord has spoken on this subject.

The claim that the church has never decreed that 'the Lord has spoken on this subject' is both irrelevant and disingenous when we consider that for over a century the church has taught it as a doctrine to be accepted, and has repeatedly attempted to defend it on historical and archaeological grounds.

[qoute]Just as the article above says, in the early days of the church MesoAmerica was being investigated by curious LDS, but those curiosities were dulled by the events of the era.

It's clear that this 'Meso-America' position is a novelty in the history of your church.

You state this as if you learned this from the article above, which explicitly contradicts your statement. You didnt bother to see what he wrote below.[/quote]

It doesn't contradict my statement. My statement is that your church has (through its literature, leaders, and missionaries), for over a century taught it as a doctrine to be accepted, and has repeatedly attempted to defend it on historical and archaeological grounds.

The Book of Mormon does accurately describe MesoAmerican culture, or the little we know of it now. The miracle is that Joseph Smith knew nothing of the region. Hardly anyone did. Only generations later were we able to finally discover that the Book of Mormon is very compatible with MesoAmerica.

The position you are taking here is transparently disingenous. The Book of Mormon cannot be said to accurately describe Meso-American culture unless you can prove that this is the culture it itends to describe. To say that it is 'compatible with MesoAmerica' is like saying it's compatible with other countries and continents on which wheels, writing, silk, and horses were used. It's meaningless.

Joseph Smith merely translated the plates, but the plates say nothing about which part of the continent the stories took place.

Then why did your church say they did?

You are not getting it. You seem to be taking the position that early LDS leaders believed that N. America was the setting, which is not correct. There were many that believed that North and South America were the setting, but not strictly N. America as you have implied. I do not deny that many believed that the continent of N. America as a whole was part of the setting, but I do reject your claim that it was thought to be the entire setting.

I haven't claimed that North American was the entire setting. I've made it clear that North and South America were taught as the entire setting (not Meso-America), and that the main focus was on North America.

You failed to provide quotes specifically from Joseph Smith and the LDS leadership teaching that Meso-America was the site described in the Book of Mormon. You also failed to provide any evidence that this view was accepted by your church at any date prior to the last 30 years.

By quoting a FAIR apologist you have not shown that the Church has taught a hemispherical theory. You have only shown that a majority of members assumed it.

Not only has it been shown that the majority of members believed it, but that it was both believed and taught by the church leaders, missionaries, and members as truth for over a century.

In using the word transliteration, I have meant it in the sense of transcription(writing the original words in the characters of a different language while still preserving the original sound) For example, Germany is not a transcription of Deutchsland, while Italy is a transcription of Italia.
Mormon is a transcription of Mormon, Nephi of Nephi, and Alma of Alma. The Book of Mormon is full of names that maintain a similar pronunciation as the original, instead of translating them into the English version. It is like keeping Maria Maria, instead of changing it to Mary. This feat was accomplished by inspiration, because J. Smith did not know semitic languages.

And as I have said, if Smith was an inspired translator, then transcription would not have been necessary. He could have translated these place names into their contemporary equivalents, and we would all know exactly where these places were. He didn't.

As I mentioned before, almost everyone of those names has been traced to a Semitic root, something impossible for J. Smith to have done were he making the book up out of his head.

Really? Where is the evidence for this please? I would like to see the third party independent evidence that the text on the plates has been 'traced to a Semitic root'.

Please don't tell me you're talking about the English words in the translated Book of Mormon. That would be equivalent to saying that if I write a book full of place names clearly derived from words such as 'Bethlehem', 'Jerusalem', 'Bethel', and 'Hebron', that I was clearly writing under inspiration, because I do not know Hebrew and yet all these words can be 'traced to a Semitic root'.

It's nonsense. All this would prove is that these words can be identified as English transliterations or re-arrangements of existing English transliterations of Hebrew words.

You have not studied the peculiar similarities in sentence structure, puncuation, and grammar between the Book of Mormon and semitic languages, the family of languages the BoM claims to have been written in.

To do that, we would need to study the plates, not the English translation. So has any third party studied the plates in the original language. If you want to make claims for the original language, you have to actually provide evidence of study of the original language.

This theory is not a final LDS position either. It is probable, and has much evidence. However I am not a linguist and the church has not declared this position on the process of how J. Smith translated the BoM.

Which, being interpreted, means 'We're having some problems with our claims regarding the language and translation, and now we can see we're going to have to backpedal in the future we're clearing the way by starting to claim we've never been dogmatic on this issue either'.

I can see it coming.

Threw its weight? Because some of the leaders agreed with it?

No, threw its weight because practically all the leaders agreed with it, and as your own link said the majority of the church believed it until the late 20th century. And throughout that time it was consistently taught and defended, for over 100 years.

[Gman]

The Book of Mormon does accurately describe MesoAmerican culture, or the little we know of it now. The miracle is that Joseph Smith knew nothing of the region. Hardly anyone did. Only generations later were we able to finally discover that the Book of Mormon is very compatible with MesoAmerica. Joseph Smith merely translated the plates, but the plates say nothing about which part of the continent the stories took place.

That's right, Joseph Smith didn't know much of MesoAmerica.. Actually one needs to look no further than New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio to find the setting of the Book of Mormon...


Latter-day Saint scholars had earlier maps showing actual place names of the area around Palmyra, New York, where the Book of Mormon originally was published.

Throughout the Book of Mormon we read of such features as "The Narrow Neck of Land" which was a days and a half's journey (roughly 30 miles) separating two great seas. Please read Alma 22:32 from the BoM..

Alma 22:32
And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half's journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

"We read much of the Hill Onidah, the Hill Ramah, and the city of the City of Angola—all place names in the land of Joseph Smith's youth. We read, in the Book of Mormon of the Land of Desolation named for a warrior named Teancum who helped General Moroni fight in the Land of Desolation. In Smith's era, an Indian Chief named Tecumseh fought and died near the narrow neck of land helping the British in the War of 1812. Today the Canadian city Techumseh (near the narrow neck of land) is named after him. We see the Book of Mormon city Kishkumen located near an area named, on modern maps, as Kiskiminetas. There are more than two dozen Book of Mormon names that are the same as or nearly the same as modern geographical locations.

Source: //www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_bomgeography.html

[Fortigurn]

Another excellent site here.

Look at the map I have attached, and you will see a resemblance to the Book of Mormon map posted by Gman which is by far superior to any resemblance to Meso-America.

Book of Mormon place names compared to actual Northeast US/Southeast Canada place names

Canadian locations are marked with an asterisk and appear in the Book of Mormon as lying in "The Land Northward"

ACTUAL PLACE NAMES

*Agathe, Saint
Alma
Angola
Antrim
Antioch

Boaz
*Conner
*Ephrem, Saint
Hellam
Jacobsburg

Jerusalem
Jordan
Kishkiminetas
Lehigh
Mantua

Monroe
Minoa
*Moraviantown
*Morin

Noah Lakes
Oneida
Oneida Castle
Omer
*Rama
*Ripple Lake
Sodom
Shiloh
Land of Midian
*Tecumseh/Tenecum

BOOK OF MORMON PLACE NAMES

Ogath
Alma, Avlley of
Angola
Antum
Anti-Anti

Boaz
Comner
Ephraim, Hill
Helam
Jacobugath

Jerusalem
Jordan
Kishkumen
Lehi
Manti

Moroni
Minon
Morianton
Moron

Noah, Land of
Onidah
Onidah, Hill
Omner
Ramah
Ripliancum, Waters of
Sidom
Shilom
Land of Midian
Teancum
Copyright 1989, 1992 by Vernal Holley Used by permission.

[Fortigurn]

The following is a list of the names found in the Book of Mormon, where they are found, and a possible source that Joseph Smith had access to for taking or creating (by joining two or more words together in some cases) the name. Obviously, if this type of list was the only evidence against the Book of Mormon being what it claims to be (which it isn't), it wouldn't be a very effective argument against the Book of Mormon's authenticity. The list is merely a possible answer to the question LDS come up with when they say, "If the Book of Mormon isn't of ancient origin, where did Joseph Smith come up with all of those names?"

Nephi I Nephi 1:1 Nephi (II Maccabbes 1:36)
Also see Webster's 1828 dictionary definition for Nephrite.

Could the idea for the names for the major groups found in the Book of Mormon (Nephites and Jaredites) come from this contemporary dictionary entry?

Joseph Smith was fascinated by stones (as were his characters in the Book of Mormon).

Note that Joseph Smith later referred to himself as Gazelem which sounds a bit
like yet some additional stone words in the 1828 dictionary.

Lehi I Nephi 1:4 Lehi (Judges 15:9)

Sariah I Nephi 2:5 Sarai (Genesis 11:29)

Laman I Nephi 2:5 Laban (Genesis 24:29)
Lamen View of the Hebrews pg 90

Lemuel I Nephi 2:5 Lemuel (Proverbs 31:1) (Lemuel Durfee, Sr. was the
owner of the Smith farm where they lived as tenant farmers after 1825. See Inside the Mind
of Joseph Smith for more on why this "coincidence" may be important.)

Sam I Nephi 2:5 Samuel (I Samuel 1:20) (See pages 51-2 of Inside the Mind
of Joseph Smith for more on Nephi/Joseph Smith Jr.'s families.)

Laban I Nephi 3:3 Laban (Genesis 24:29) (Lebanon was the
town where Joseph Smith had his three surgeries as a child. See Inside the Mind
of Joseph Smith for more on why this "coincidence" may be important.)

Zoram I Nephi 4:35 Zorah (Joshua 19:41)

Ishmael I Nephi 7:2 Ishmael (Genesis 16:11)

Nahom (Site) I Nephi 16:34 Nahum (Nahum 1:1)

Irreantum I Nephi 17:5 Israel & Miletum (2 Timothy 4:20) (both sites)
(Site)

Jacob I Nephi 18:7 Jacob (Genesis 25:26)

Joseph I Nephi 18:7 Joseph (Genesis 30:24)

Zenock I Nephi 19:10 Zadok (II Samuel 8:17)

Neum I Nephi 19:10 Nahum (Nahum 1:1)

Zenos I Nephi 19:10 Zenas (Titus 3:13)

Sherem Jacob 7:1 Sheresh (I Chronicles 7:16)

Jarom Jarom 1:1 Joram (II Samuel 8:10)
Another possible stone derivative?

Omni Jarom 1:15 Omri (IKings 16:16)

Amaron Omni 1:3 Amariah (I Chronicles 6:7)

Chemish Omni 1:8 Chemosh (Numbers 21:29)
Chemim View of the Hebrews pg 90

Abinadom Omni 1:10 Abinadab (I Samuel 7:1)

Amaleki Omni 1:12 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Mosiah Omni 1:12 Moses (Exodus 2:10) and Isaiah (Isaiah 1:1)

Zarahemla Omni 1:12 Zara (Matthew 1:3) and Imla (II
(site) Chronicles 18:7)

Coriantumr Omni 1:21 Coriander (Exodus 16:31)

Benjamin Omni 1:23 Benjamin (Genesis 35:18) (Rev. Benjamin Stockton was the
Presbyterian minister during the 1824-5 Palmyra revival. He had personal dealings with the
Smith family including offending Joseph Smith Sr. at Alvin Smith's funeral. It is thought
that his sermons were like that of the Book of Mormon's Benjamin. See Inside the Mind
of Joseph Smith for more on this "coincidence".)

Mormon Words of Mormon Moriah (Genesis 22:2) and Solomon (II
1:1 Samuel 5:14)

Moroni Words of Mormon Capital of Comoros (Camorah)
1:1 (See Cumorah below for more info)


Helorum Mosiah 1:2 Helon (Numbers 1:9) and Harum (I Chronicles 4:8)
(via email I received this tip: An alternative would be the "Helorum"
in Livy's "History of Rome", the source of many, many Solomon Spalding borrowings)

Helaman Mosiah 1:2 Helam (II Samuel 10:16)

Shilom (site) Mosiah 7:5 Shiloh (Genesis 49:10) also View of the Hebrews pg 90

Helem Mosiah 7:6 Helam (II Samuel 10:16)

Hem Mosiah 7:6 Ham (Genesis 5:32)

Limhi Mosiah 7:9 Lemhi Indians of Idaho

Noah Mosiah 7:9 Noah (Genesis 5:29)

Zeniff Mosiah 7:9 Zenan (Joshua 15:37) and Ziph (Joshua 15:24)

Neas (food) Mosiah 9:9 Neah (Joshua 19:13)

Sheum (food) Mosiah 9:9 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Shemlon (site) Mosiah 10:7 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Ziff (metal) Mosiah 11:3 Ziph (Joshua 15:24)

Abinadi Mosiah 11:20 Abinadab (I Samuel 7:1)

Alma Mosiah 17:2 Almon (Joshua 21:18) (also a town in Quebec)

Gideon Mosiah 19:4 Gideon (Judges 6:11)

Amulon Mosiah 23:31 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)
(site/name)

Mulek Mosiah 25:2 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Ammon(ite) Mosiah 27:34 Ammon (Genesis 19:38)
Also see Nephi and Jared and the Ammonite entry in the same dictionary.

Aaron Mosiah 27:34 Aaron (Exodus 4:14)

Omner Mosiah 27:34 Omer (Exodus 16:16)

Himni Mosiah 27:34 Shimhi (I Chronicles 8:21)

Nehor Alma 1:15 Nahor (Genesis 11:22)

Manti (site) Alma 1:15

Amlici Alma 2:1 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Amnihu (site) Alma 2:15 Amnon (II Samuel 3:2) and Jehu (I Kings 16:1)

Sidon (site) Alma 2:15 Sidon (Genesis 10:15)

Zeram Alma 2:22 Zerah (Genesis 36:13)

Amnor Alma 2:22 Amnon (II Samuel 3:2)

Limher Alma 2:22 Limhi (Mosiah 7:9)

Minon (site) Alma 2:24 Pinon (Genesis 36:41)

Nephihah Alma 4:17 Nephi (II Maccabbes 1:36)

Melek (site) Alma 8:3 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Ammonihah Alma 8:6 Ammon (Genesis 19:38)
(site)

Amulek Alma 8:21 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Giddonah Alma 10:2 Megiddon (Zechariah 12:11)

Aminadi Alma 10:2 Aminadab (Matthew 1:4)

Zeezrom Alma 10:31 Zeeb (Psalms 83:11) & Ezrom (Alma 11:6)

Senine (coin) Alma 11:3 Senir (Ezekiel 27:5)

Senum (coin) Alma 11:3 Senuah (Nehemiah 11:9)

Seon (coin) Alma 11:5 Sion (Deuteronomy 4:48)

Shum (coin) Alma 11:5 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Limnah (coin) Alma 11:5 Limhi (Mosiah 7:9)

Ezrom (coin) Alma 11:6 Esrom (Matthew 1:3)

Onti (coin) Alma 11:6

Shiblon (coin) Alma 11:15 Shibboleth (Judges 12:6)

Shiblum (coin) Alma 11:16 Shiblon (Alma 11:15)

Leah (coin) Alma 11:17 Leah (Genesis 29:16)

Antion (coin) Alma 11:19 Antioch (Acts 6:5)

Antionah Alma 12:20 Antion (Alma 11:19)

Sidom (site) Alma 15:1 Sidon (Genesis 10:15)

Lamoni Alma 17:21 Laman (I Nephi 2:5)

Sebus (site) Alma 17:26 Seba (Genesis 10:7)

Rabbanah Alma 18:13 Rabboni (John 20:16)
(title)

Abish Alma 19:16 Abishai (I Samuel 26:6)

Middoni Alma 20:2 Midian (Genesis 25:2)

Muloki Alma 20:2 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Ammah Alma 20:2 Ammah (II Samuel 2:24)

Antiomno Alma 20:4 Antioch (Acts 6:5) and Omni (Jarom 1:15)

Ani-Anti Alma 21:11 Antiomno (Alma 20:4)

Shimnilom Alma 23:12 Shimon (I Chronicles 4:20)
(site)

Jershon (site) Alma 27:22 Gershon (Genesis 46:11)

Korihor Alma 30:12 Korah (Numbers 16:1) also View of the Hebrews pg 90

Antionum Alma 31:3 Antiomno (Alma 20:4)
(site)

Corianton Alma 31:7 Coriantumr (Omni 1:21)

Rameumptom Alma 31:21 Ramiah (Ezra 10:25), Reumah (Genesis 22:24),
(site) Miletum (2 Timoty 4:20)

Onidah (site) Alma 32:4 Oneida Indians of Ontario (name means "people of the stone")

Gazelem Alma 37:23 Gazzam (Ezra 2:48) (Also see the above)

Liahona Alma 37:38 Liani/Lihene View of the Hebrews pg 90

Siron (site) Alma 39:3 Sidon (Genesis 10:15)

Isabel Alma 39:3 Jezebel (I Kings 16:31)

Zerahemnah Alma 43:5 Zarahemla (Omni 1:12)

Riplah (site) Alma 43:31 Riblah (Numbers 34:11, II Kings 25:6, II Kings 23:33, Jeremiah 39:5, Jeremiah 52:9)


Amalickiah Alma 46:3 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Antipas (site) Alma 47:7 Antipas (Revelation 2:13)

Lehonti Alma 47:10 Lehi (Judges 15:9) and Onti (Alma 11:6)

Morianton Alma 50:25 Moriah (Genesis 22:2)
(site)

Pahoran Alma 50:40 Paran (Genesis 21:21)

Judea (site) Alma 56:9 Judea (Ezra 5:8)

Antipus Alma 56:9 Antipas (Revelation 2:13)

Cumeni (site) Alma 56:14 Cummin (Isaiah 28:25)

Antiparah Alma 56:14 Antipas (Revelation 2:13) and Parah
(site) (Joshua 18:23)

Teomner Alma 58:16 Tamar (Genesis 38:6)

Pachus Alma 62:6

Moronihah Alma 62:43 Moroni (Words of Mormon 1:1)

Hagoth Alma 63:5 Haggith (II Samuel 3:4)

Paanchi Helaman 1:3

Pacumeni Helaman 1:3 Pachus (Alma 62:6) and Cumeni (Alma 56:14)

Kishkumen Helaman 1:9 Kish (I Samuel 9:1) and Cumeni (Alma 56:14)

Tubaloth Helaman 1:16 Tubal (Genesis 10:2)

Gadianton Helaman 2:4 Gideon (Judges 6:11)

Cezoram Helaman 5:1 Zoram (I Nephi 4:35)

Aminadab Helaman 5:39 Aminadab (Matthew 1:4)

Ezias Helaman 8:20 Esaias (John 1:23)

Seezoram Helaman 9:23 Cezoram (Helaman 5:1)

Seantum Helaman 9:26

Samuel Helaman 13:2 Samuel (I Samuel 1:20)

Lachoneus III Nephi 1:1 Lacunus (I Esdras 9:31) Greek or Latin name that
shouldn't be in a Hebrew or 'Reformed Egyptian' book.

Giddianhi III Nephi 3:9 Gideon (Judges 6:11)

Gidgiddoni III Nephi 3:18 Giddianhi (III Nephi 3:9)

Zemnarihah III Nephi 4:17 Zemaraim (Joshua 18:22)

Gilgal (site) III Nephi 9:6 Gilgal (Deuteronomy 11:30)

Onihah (site) III Nephi 9:7 Onidah (Alma 32:4)

Mocum (site) III Nephi 9:7

Gadiandi III Nephi 9:8 Gadianton (Helaman 2:4)
(site)

Gadiomnah III Nephi 9:8 Gadianton (Helaman 2:4)
(site)

Gimgimno III Nephi 9:8 Gimzo (II Chronicles 28:18)
(site)

Jacobugath III Nephi 9:9 Jacob (Genesis 25:26) and Gath (I Samuel
(site) 17:23)

Josh III Nephi 9:10 Joshua (Exodus 17:9)

Gad III Nephi 9:10 Gad (Genesis 30:11)

Timothy III Nephi 19:4 Timothy (II Corinthians 1:1) - Another Greek name
that shouldn't be in the Book of Mormon

Jonas III Nephi 19:4 Jonas (Matthew 12:39)

Mathoni III Nephi 19:4 Matthew (Matthew 9:9) and Lamoni (Alma 17:21)

Mathonihah III Nephi 19:4 Mathoni (III Nephi 19:4)

Kumen III Nephi 19:4 Cumeni (Alma 56:14)

Kumenonhi III Nephi 19:4 Kumen (III Nephi 19:4)

Shemnon III Nephi 19:4 Shem (Genesis 5:32) and Amnon (II Samuel 3:2)

Ammaron IV Nephi 1:47 Amariah (I Chronicles 6:7)

Antum (site) Mormon 1:3

Shim (site) Mormon 1:3 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Angola (site) Mormon 2:4 African State (Spelt Angelah in 1830 version)

Joshua (site) Mormon 2:6 Joshua (Exodus 17:9)

Jashon (site) Mormon 2:16 Jashen (II Samuel 23:32)

Shem (site) Mormon 2:20 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Boaz (site) Mormon 4:20 Boaz (Ruth 2:1)

Cumorah (site) Mormon 6:2 Comoros (Capital City is Moroni) - Island chain East of
Mozambique, Africa (note: See this site for more info)

Gidgiddonah Mormon 6:13 Gadiomnah (III Nephi 9:8)
(site)

Lamah (site) Mormon 6:14 Laman (I Nephi 2:5)

Limhah (site) Mormon 6:14 Limhi (Mosiah 7:9)

Jeneum (site) Mormon 6:14

Cumenihah Mormon 6:14 Cumeni (Alma 56:14)
(site)

Shiblom (site) Mormon 6:14 Shiblon (Alma 11:15)

Ether Ether 1:2 Ether (Joshua 15:42)

Coriantor Ether 1:6 Coriantumr (Omni 1:21)

Moron Ether 1:7 Moroni (Words of Mormon 1:1)

Ethem Ether 1:8 Ether (Joshua 15:42)

Ahah Ether 1:9 Ahab (I Kings 16:28)

Seth Ether 1:10 Seth (Genesis 4:25)

Com Ether 1:12

Coriantum Ether 1:13 Coriantumr (Omni 1:21)

Amnigaddah Ether 1:14 Amnon (II Samuel 3:2) and Gadiandi (III Nephi 9:8)

Heth Ether 1:16 Heth (Genesis 10:15)

Hearthom Ether 1:16

Lib Ether 1:17 Libya (Ezekiel 30:5) also African state

Kish Ether 1:18 Kish (I Samuel 9:1) also View of the Hebrews pg 90

Corom Ether 1:19 Coriantum (Ether 1:13)

Levi Ether 1:20 Levi (Genesis 29:34)

Kim Ether 1:21

Riplakish Ether 1:23 Riplah (Alma 43:31) and Kish (Ether 1:18)

Shez Ether 1:24

Emer Ether 1:28 Omer (Exodus 16:16)

Omer Ether 1:29 Omer (Exodus 16:16)

Shule Ether 1:30 Shual (I Samuel 13:17)

Kib Ether 1:31

Orihah Ether 1:32 Orion (Job 9:9)

Jared Ether 1:32 Jared (Genesis 5:15)
See also Nephi and Ammon. Jade or jadery slightly changed to Jared?

Deseret Ether 2:3
(insect)

Moriancumer Ether 2:13 Moriah (Genesis 22:2) and Cumeni (Alma
(site) 56:14)

Shelem (site) Ether 3:1 Shelemiah (I Chronicles 26:14)

Jacom Ether 6:14 Jacob (Genesis 25:26)

Gilgah Ether 6:14 Gilgal (Joshua 4:19)

Mahah Ether 6:14 Mahath (I Chronicles 6:35)

Pagag Ether 6:25 Agag (I Samuel 15:8)

Corihor Ether 7:3 Korihor (Alma 30:12)

Cohor Ether 7:15 Corihor (Ether 7:3)

Esrom Ether 8:4 Esrom (Matthew 1:3)

Akish Ether 8:10 Kish (I Samuel 9:1)

Kimnor Ether 8:10

Ablom Ether 9:3 Absalom (II Samuel 3:3)

Nimrah Ether 9:8 Nimrah (Numbers 32:3)

Curelom Ether 9:19
(animal)

Cumom (animal) Ether 9:19

Amgid Ether 10:32

Zerin (site) Ether 12:30 Zeri (I Chronicles 25:3)

Shared Ether 13:23 Jared (Genesis 5:15)

Heshlon (site) Ether 13:28 Heshmon (Joshua 15:27)

Gilead Ether 14:8 Gilead (Genesis 31:21)

Agosh (site) Ether 14:15 Goshen (Genesis 45:10)

Shiz Ether 14:17 Shez (Ether 1:24)

Shurr (site) Ether 14:28 Shur (Genesis 16:7)

Comnor Ether 14:28

Ripliancum Ether 15:8 Riplah (Alma 43:31)
(site)

Ogath Ether 15:10 Gath (I Samuel 17:23)

Ramah Ether 15:11 Ramah (Joshua 18:25)

Archeantus Moroni 9:2 Archelaus (Matthew 2:22)

Luram Moroni 9:2 Ludim (Genesis 10:13) and Ramah (Joshua 18:25)

Emron Moroni 9:2 Esrom (Matthew 1:3)

Amoron Moroni 9:7 Amorite (Joshua 9:1)

Sherrizah Moroni 9:7 Sherezer (Zechariah 7:2)

Moriantum Moroni 9:9 Moriancumer (Ether 2:13)

Zenephi Moroni 9:16 Zeniff (Mosiah 7:9) and Nephi (Nephi 1:1)

Source.

[Fortigurn]

Coincidence?

[Gman]

Looks the same to me... I think I hear those crickets again..

[Fortigurn]

The LDS church would be able to make a far better case that the Book of Mormon was a prophecy of 19th century North America, than that it is a record of ancient Meso-America.

[Gman]

Geography wise yes... Archeology wise no...

[Sargon]

My friends, you have presented me with an enormous amount of information. These accusations are not new to me, and they do not intimidate me in the least bit. For every false accusation there exists a logical and spiritual explanation, of which I am familiar with. Unfortunately, I cannot even begin to sift through it all at this point. I do not have the apparent time on my hands that you seem to enjoy. The crickets are not chirping, the responses are out there if you desire to search for them. Unfortunately I do not think that you will, and you shall then continue to wallow in disbelief.
You might consider this a cop-out, or a show of bravery in the face of disaster, but you are wrong in this conclusion. I am facing a very busy holiday season, and I cannot sacrifice my time to meaningless quarrels with enemies of the Lord.
I hope we can pick this up where we left off in the future.
Sincerely,
Sargon

[Gman]

You might consider this a cop-out, or a show of bravery in the face of disaster, but you are wrong in this conclusion. I am facing a very busy holiday season, and I cannot sacrifice my time to meaningless quarrels with enemies of the Lord.

Sargon, please don't take our information as an attack on you. We are just pointing out flaws in the Book of Mormon... Please take your time..

I simply fail to see how you are going to get around this geography issue... Many times you state that nowhere in the BoM does it ever give any geographic location. While this may be true since Joseph Smith was reading from some "supposed" ancient plates. But obviously he would have been a fool to put modern day location names like Manchester, Ontario county, New York in the BoM since it was reporting of an earlier time. However, he does give geographical location views (like the one in the book of Alma 22:32) in the BoM. You CANNOT deny this..

So where does Smith say where these geographic locations existed in the BoM? Obviously he wouldn't insert modern names into the BoM itself... So where? In his TESTIMONIES and the testimonies of the Church elders... You CANNOT deny this...

Again, in the BoM before the book of Nephi 1, Smith states in his testimony..

"Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited In a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding In the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth."

Also in the introduction of the BoM its states where Joesph found the plates.. In the hill Cumorah... Not HILLS... No where in the BoM does it ever say HILLS of Cumorah..

INTRODUCTION

The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to "the Bible. It is a record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon.. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredltes. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come.
After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.
In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
In addition to Joseph Smith, the Lord provided for eleven others to see the gold plates for themselves and to be special witnesses of the truth and divinity of the Book of Mormon. Their written testimonies are included herewith as "The Testimony of Three Witnesses" and "The Testimony of Eight Witnesses."
We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10: 3-5.)
Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.

On top of that we've provided geographic maps where the elders (including Smith) of the BoM stated where these events occurred..


Geographic location of Alma 22:32

A few testimonies of the early elders...

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York. " (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Sept. 18, 1881 Journal of Discourses Vol. 22, pg. 224)

"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord." (The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14).

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation.

This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites'" (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)

Again, finally Smith himself..

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites." "It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. "Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

I just can't see how you can get around this... Please help us see...