PAY ATTENTION

[identity_in_development]

Sometimes an artist will paint fine detail into his painting that requires close examination. But these individual parts, by themselves, don't complete the picture and only when one steps back does he see the entire composition. Likewise, the viewer of the picture is vital in the interpretation of the picture. Similarly, it seems for what we're discussing, the final goal of our arguments differ because the individual parts differ, and our perspectives differ based on our life experience.

Not simply due to my training in psychology, I look at the individual parts I'm most familiar with as my natural way of viewing the big picture: And that's the behavioral ramifications of one's beliefs, and the belief itself. There are a lot of myths about life and correct action and, no more than anyone else, Christians need to be fully aware of the beliefs inherent in their interpretations of their religion that can lead to violence, intolerance, ignorance, and a skewed world view. Inherently, "ignorance" and "skewed world view" are nebulous terms because their relativity to everything around them -

I'm quite critical towards Christianity, but I'm critical about most religions with a shady past, because those characteristics that make it shady don't really die: They perpetuate in different forms. Take the progression of oppression within the Christian church, (maybe as a backlash to Roman oppression) and the targets of this oppression: from Women to Muslims to Pagans (everyone!) to Aztecs to Indians to Blacks to gays and atheists, back to Muslims. An entire cascade of inherent doctrine influence the beliefs which influence behavior, habit, and lifestyle. And because of this wide variance, simplification is naturally necessary... sorry Canuckster... if you were familiar with statistics, which you should be, you'd understand better how individual datum are collected and inferred back to the population.

I live in a very religious part of southwestern Washington, I was raised a Christian, I have a Christian girlfriend, and I'm friends with many Christians. I've lived my life around Christians for a very long time and I know that Christianity has good parts and good beliefs that DO help society and certain individuals. I have narrow aspects of Christianity that light my panic alarm, not because Christianity is the only religion, but because I'm around it the most and its the prevalent influence in my country. If it weren't influencing either of those, I'd sit back and relax, but because I see those little inherent negatively tinted tendencies, I try to at the least, bring them to the surface of consciousness.

Conclusion: I'm not trying to oppress or remove Christianity. I think there are good parts to it, and other parts that need attention and adjustment. If everyone of you pay attention to your thoughts and actions, you can start determiming what your true beliefs are ---- FREE OF INFLUENCE FROM AN OUTSIDE OR METAPHYSICAL FORCE. Stop blaming the problematic Christians for "not being true Christian's" and look at the beliefs that influence the behavior.

[August]

Why don't you give us the basis on which you propose to criticize Christianity? How do you know what is right and wrong? Where did it come from? How do you know that? How does that apply to the truth value or not of Christianity?

[Turgonian]

Conclusion: I'm not trying to oppress or remove Christianity. I think there are good parts to it, and other parts that need attention and adjustment. If everyone of you pay attention to your thoughts and actions, you can start determiming what your true beliefs are ---- FREE OF INFLUENCE FROM AN OUTSIDE OR METAPHYSICAL FORCE. Stop blaming the problematic Christians for "not being true Christian's" and look at the beliefs that influence the behavior.

Yeah, right: let's be religious for sociological reasons -- let's be cultural Christians and not believe in God, but just be nice. After all, that's what 'freedom from influence from a metaphysical force' implies. Christianity believes we are not free from it and that if we were, it wouldn't be freedom anyway.

Do take a look at JP Holding's Crimeline. Someone with a lot of spare time collected all the crimes Christianity is supposedly guilty of, and Holding debunks or relativizes them all.
Just shows that a lot of urban myths are alive as well as untrue...

[Canuckster1127]

Sometimes an artist will paint fine detail into his painting that requires close examination. But these individual parts, by themselves, don't complete the picture and only when one steps back does he see the entire composition. Likewise, the viewer of the picture is vital in the interpretation of the picture. Similarly, it seems for what we're discussing, the final goal of our arguments differ because the individual parts differ, and our perspectives differ based on our life experience.

Not simply due to my training in psychology, I look at the individual parts I'm most familiar with as my natural way of viewing the big picture: And that's the behavioral ramifications of one's beliefs, and the belief itself. There are a lot of myths about life and correct action and, no more than anyone else, Christians need to be fully aware of the beliefs inherent in their interpretations of their religion that can lead to violence, intolerance, ignorance, and a skewed world view. Inherently, "ignorance" and "skewed world view" are nebulous terms because their relativity to everything around them -

I'm quite critical towards Christianity, but I'm critical about most religions with a shady past, because those characteristics that make it shady don't really die: They perpetuate in different forms. Take the progression of oppression within the Christian church, (maybe as a backlash to Roman oppression) and the targets of this oppression: from Women to Muslims to Pagans (everyone!) to Aztecs to Indians to Blacks to gays and atheists, back to Muslims. An entire cascade of inherent doctrine influence the beliefs which influence behavior, habit, and lifestyle. And because of this wide variance, simplification is naturally necessary... sorry Canuckster... if you were familiar with statistics, which you should be, you'd understand better how individual datum are collected and inferred back to the population.

I live in a very religious part of southwestern Washington, I was raised a Christian, I have a Christian girlfriend, and I'm friends with many Christians. I've lived my life around Christians for a very long time and I know that Christianity has good parts and good beliefs that DO help society and certain individuals. I have narrow aspects of Christianity that light my panic alarm, not because Christianity is the only religion, but because I'm around it the most and its the prevalent influence in my country. If it weren't influencing either of those, I'd sit back and relax, but because I see those little inherent negatively tinted tendencies, I try to at the least, bring them to the surface of consciousness.

Conclusion: I'm not trying to oppress or remove Christianity. I think there are good parts to it, and other parts that need attention and adjustment. If everyone of you pay attention to your thoughts and actions, you can start determiming what your true beliefs are ---- FREE OF INFLUENCE FROM AN OUTSIDE OR METAPHYSICAL FORCE. Stop blaming the problematic Christians for "not being true Christian's" and look at the beliefs that influence the behavior.

Well, thank you for the post-modernistic word of the day.

Please explain to me your basis for referring to Christianity in general in these terms. Feel free to use statistics if you wish. I'll try and keep up.

"Skewed world view" and "ignorance" are only relative terms if there is no absolute basis upon which to derive meaning which provides a reference point to draw those conclusions. Post-modernistic philosophy is very keen on asserting that there are no absolutes and thus no basis to assert morals and ethics. The irony of course, is that in stating there to be no absolutes, they are asserting that premise itself as an absolute.

I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say in response to August's questions. It will good to see if you're as good building things as you are tearing them down.

Now, before engaging further, I have two questions for you that I would like straight answers from you if you please.

1. Have you read the Board Purpose and Discussion Guidelines and do you believe that your purpose and presence here are in line with them?

2. Are you a participant on Richard Dawkins website?

With those questions answered and some direct answers to the questions you have been asked we can proceed.

Thank you,

Bart

[Birdie]

Why don't you give us the basis on which you propose to criticize Christianity?

I'm quite critical towards Christianity, but I'm critical about most religions with a shady past, because those characteristics that make it shady don't really die: They perpetuate in different forms. Take the progression of oppression within the Christian church, (maybe as a backlash to Roman oppression) and the targets of this oppression: from Women to Muslims to Pagans (everyone!) to Aztecs to Indians to Blacks to gays and atheists, back to Muslims.

Not all Christians are like that. I used to live in a place where the kids at church were some of my best friends, I liked the youth service and I liked the lessons and I liked the pastor. But I moved and my view on Christianity has taken a turn for the worst. I recognize kids from my church as the same kids who make fun of me, the Church lessons are dull, and I don't like the youth pastor.

And to make my view on Christianity 'better' a high, high. HIGH majority are Christians and this is the most sexist, racist and overall meanest place I been. People are always saying stuff like “'Lutherans' 'Methodist' 'Baptist' aren't we all just Christians?” But from my experiences the name of the Church isn't what makes the most difference in Christians. It's the location. Some Christians are nice, some are not… It's been hard not to let the 'Christians' I'm surrounded by now to make a bad opinion on all the other Christians who actually are good people.

And yes most religions have a shady past, with religions killing others and so on. But those characteristics can die, for most.

How do you know what is right and wrong? Where did it come from? How do you know that? How does that apply to the truth value or not of Christianity?

Some people don't need a Bible to know right from wrong. And why start pestering her/him? He/she wasn't talking about morals but about Christianity's major impact and how some Christians are a bit, scary.

[August]

Birdie, no-one is pestering anyone.

IID has been coming here for a while now spouting off on how damaging Christianity is, and acting as if he/she has some special insights that proves that.. Should we just let him/her assert that and be done with it? Sorry my friend, if someone makes judgments on Christians and Chrisitianity, they must be prepared to explain it.

If you don't like it, then don't read it.

[Judah]

Hmm, are we to stand up straight, click heels and salute as well?
The title shouts it all - we are obviously not attending very well. If so we would throw away our Bibles and observe the more fashionable thought forms of the day. We are too out-of-date on this forum, I guess.

Well, I would like to know IID's responses to both Canuckster and August.
They look like very good questions to me.
And certainly a push-over after Psychology 101.

Turgy, put your book on JPH away and listen up!

Oops, I'm being bad - I'm supposed to behave myself on here.

[FFC]

Oops, I'm being bad - I'm supposed to behave myself on here.

I believe you are stuck between The Rock and a hard place my dear Kiwi friend.

[Judah]

I know!
And being squeezed like so, it all comes leaking out...

FFC, how come you're so good? What's your secret?

I'm just filling in time here until IID returns to tell us things. I hope he has some good answers because I think August has put his batteries on charge. Captain Canuck will be donning his cape ready for a precise descent.
Oh my goodness.
IID, I hope you have your side of it all worked out.

FFC, I don't know if I can bare to watch (or should it be bear? - I'm never sure which). How about you?

Right, I'm all ears and eyes. I'm paying attention now. I'm just not sure what I'm buying!

[FFC]

I know!
And being squeezed like so, it all comes leaking out...

Indeed it does...for me too.

FFC, how come you're so good? What's your secret?

Ignorance is bliss

I'm just filling in time here until IID returns to tell us things. I hope he has some good answers because I think August has put his batteries on charge. Captain Canuck will be donning his cape ready for a precise descent.
Oh my goodness.
IID, I hope you have your side of it all worked out.

FFC, I don't know if I can bare to watch (or should it be bear? - I'm never sure which). How about you?

I think it is bear...unless were talking about two different things I'm just glad that there are those more capable than myself stepping up to the task.

Judah, Did I just hear a cape rustling?

[Byblos]

I know!
And being squeezed like so, it all comes leaking out...

Indeed it does...for me too.

FFC, how come you're so good? What's your secret?

Ignorance is bliss

I'm just filling in time here until IID returns to tell us things. I hope he has some good answers because I think August has put his batteries on charge. Captain Canuck will be donning his cape ready for a precise descent.
Oh my goodness.
IID, I hope you have your side of it all worked out.

FFC, I don't know if I can bare to watch (or should it be bear? - I'm never sure which). How about you?

I think it is bear...unless were talking about two different things I'm just glad that there are those more capable than myself stepping up to the task.

Judah, Did I just hear a cape rustling?

I'm taking a spectator role too. This should prove interesting and fun (if IID engages that is).

[Turgonian]

Some people don't need a Bible to know right from wrong.

Those would be in possession of a Thora, or Qur'an, or something like that.
Oh, people know right from wrong (for a good deal) without revelation. The problem is, when you ask them, 'How can you say this is right/wrong?', they realize they're skating on thin ice and this confounds them so much they fall hard on their bum!

Turgy, put your book on JPH away and listen up!

'I don't really care if they label me a Holding freak...
What will people do when they find out it's true?'

(based on Jesus Freak )

[Judah]

Turgy, you are highly entertaining but you really must PAY ATTENTION.

And Birdie, get yourself over to a nicer part of town and tune in too.

Yep, Byblos, there could be something worth watching here.
That's if... do you think IID will turn up?
He's got our ATTENTION, but he's not doing anything with it just yet.

I hope IID has a sense of humour. It has become very important to have one of those these days.

Anyway, who else are we waiting for? PL? Yep, we definitely need PL to show up. He has interesting things to say. Oh, and Gman too.
Now where's FFC gone to?

Turgy, since you won't put that book down, how about some readings from JPH while we are waiting? You may as well read us something inspirational from it while we wait. You know, to get us ready for the main show...
Or a poem?

A bunch of folks who felt like fun
Were called to pay attent - i - on
They came to see what they had bought
Their payment asked - but it was nought!

Oh dear, I hope that doesn't turn out to be prophetic!

C'mon IID. Be a good sport and come back and talk to us.
I'll try and behave myself if you do. Honest!
(But I can't speak for the others, of course).

[Gman]

No you PAY ATTENTION....

[Judah]

But Gman, I've been paying heaps and heaps of ATTENTION here.
What has it got me? Not a lot so far.
I'm wondering if all my ATTENTION might have scared IID off a bit. I hope he isn't scared off.
What do you think, Gman? Do you think he is scared off?