Becoming a Saint

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:12 pm

bizzt wrote: How does the Church know a Person has gone to Heaven?

I thought someone would ask that question

There is a lengthly process to go through before the Church can canonize someone a saint. Now in all honesty, the whole process of the canonization of saints is yet another area where I am not very well versed (hey, I'm only fifteen

lol), and I'm not very good at explaning something unless I know it very well (obviously), so I hope you don't mind if I just post some links to some articles...I don't have time to go through them and just post the highlights...

Anyways, I'm rambling, so here are the links. Enjoy!

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CACANONI.HTM

And for a longer explanation:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

God bless!
Veronica ”

Friend · Post by **Friend** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:10 am

The church doesn’t know if someone goes to heaven or hell.

The Roman Catholic Church practice of beatification and canonization of saint is not biblical.
A person's saintliness does not rely on the canonization process which the church introduced in the 900s

Before the canonization process didn’t people go to heaven
There is even the practice of praying for the intercession of saints.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

It doesn’t matter people know if we’ve made it to heaven, it is rather our aim to make it to heaven

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:07 pm

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

Well if you are going to interpret that passage the way you have appeared to have interpreted it in your post, then I have a question. Do you ever ask people to pray for you?

Deus te benedicat!
Veronica ”

Byblos · Post by **Byblos** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:33 pm

And it's good to see you back Veronica. Hope all is well.

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:56 am

Thank you Byblos! I hope all is well with you and your family, as well.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:08 am

Yes Hello Veronica. It has been a long time!!! God Bless you

August · Post by **August** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:12 am

Veronica wrote:
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)
Well if you are going to interpret that passage the way you have appeared to have interpreted it in your post, then I have a question. Do you ever ask people to pray for you?

Deus te benedicat!
Veronica ”

Yes, but they are all alive.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:31 pm

August wrote:
Veronica wrote:
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)
Well if you are going to interpret that passage the way you have appeared to have interpreted it in your post, then I have a question. Do you ever ask people to pray for you?

Deus te benedicat!
Veronica ”
Yes, but they are all alive.

August can you tell us why the Alive in Christ are any different then the asleep in Christ? Just trying to get some active dialogue here

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:20 pm

Yes, but they are all alive.

So you believe the proper interpretation, in regards to 1 Timothy 2:5, is that we are allowed to ask others for prayers, as long as they are alive? Thus far, I agree. I just don't see how your statement^^ is relevent to asking the saints to pray for us.

If you are implying that the souls in heaven are dead (as your post clearly implies, but correct me if I'm wrong), than my argument is as follows:

(Most Christians agree with the answers to the two following questions, but if there is any objections to anything I'm assuming, then please let me know what.

)

Q. Do you believe we have a soul and a body?

A. Yes

Q. What happens to the soul and body when we die?

A. The body decays, and the soul enters into “eternal life” or “eternal death”

Thus, the souls in heaven are not dead. Their spirit (the important part

) lives on.

Biblical argument: “I am the God of the living…” (Now I will admit that many Protestants have more bible verses memorized than most Catholics, so if anyone can tell me where that verse I quoted is, exactly, I'd be grateful. All I know it is somewhere in Matthew's Gospel

). So if God is the God of the living, then the souls in heaven must be alive, or he is not king of “heaven and earth.” If the answer is the latter, that God is not the king of heaven and earth, (which the answer most assuredly is not), all that Christians believe would be false.

August can you tell us why the Alive in Christ are any different then the asleep in Christ?

Just for clarification, by "asleep in Christ" do you mean those in heaven?

Thanks!

Yes Hello Veronica. It has been a long time!!! God Bless you

Thank you!

And yes, it has been a long time.

Deus te Benedicat!
Veronica ”

August · Post by **August** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:03 pm

bizzt wrote:
August wrote:
Veronica wrote:
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)
Well if you are going to interpret that passage the way you have appeared to have interpreted it in your post, then I have a question. Do you ever ask people to pray for you?

Deus te benedicat!
Veronica ”
Yes, but they are all alive.

August can you tell us why the Alive in Christ are any different then the asleep in Christ? Just trying to get some active dialogue here

It all comes back to Sola Scriptura vs tradition.

The RC position is that they do not "pray" to Mary or the saints, but that they merely ask them to intercede on their behalf. The assumption is that somehow these saints have a preferred position within heaven, and can therefore have some good effects. Apart from the fact that the Bible says that all believers=saints (Rom 1:7), there are several more problems with that.

1. The assumption that they have "more direct access" is not Scriptural. Heb 4:16 says that all believers can approach the throne with confidence. The proclamation of saints is an arbitrary human tradition, and does not prove thier sainthood before God.
2. There is only one true mediator between man and God. Why would we ask anyone else to intercede with God on our behalf? (See my blog entry for today)
3. When the statement is made that it is no different than asking others to pray for us, it needs to stand up to Biblical scrutiny. The Bible describes in many places believers praying for each other, but no-where that anyone in heaven is praying for anyone on earth.
4. There is absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our "requests". To say that they can is to imply that they are omniscient, since they will presumably get millions of such requests simultaneously. There is only one that is omniscient, and that is God.
5. The Biblical context of contact with the dead is that of magic, necromancy, sorcery, divination and evil spirits. (Lev 20:27, Deut 18:10-13)
6. We are told not to consult the dead on behalf of the living. (Is 8:19)
7. God does not answer prayers based on who does the praying, but according to His will. (1 John 5:14-15).

Hope that helps. I know that this is more than your question.

August · Post by **August** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:19 pm

Veronica wrote:
Yes, but they are all alive.
So you believe the proper interpretation, in regards to 1 Timothy 2:5, is that we are allowed to ask others for prayers, as long as they are alive? Thus far, I agree. I just don't see how your statement^^ is relevent to asking the saints to pray for us.

If you are implying that the souls in heaven are dead (as your post clearly implies, but correct me if I'm wrong), than my argument is as follows:

(Most Christians agree with the answers to the two following questions, but if there is any objections to anything I'm assuming, then please let me know what. )

Q. Do you believe we have a soul and a body?

A. Yes

Q. What happens to the soul and body when we die?

A. The body decays, and the soul enters into “eternal life” or “eternal death”

Thus, the souls in heaven are not dead. Their spirit (the important part ) lives on.

Biblical argument: “I am the God of the living…” (Now I will admit that many Protestants have more bible verses memorized than most Catholics, so if anyone can tell me where that verse I quoted is, exactly, I'd be grateful. All I know it is somewhere in Matthew's Gospel ). So if God is the God of the living, then the souls in heaven must be alive, or he is not king of “heaven and earth.” If the answer is the latter, that God is not the king of heaven and earth, (which the answer most assuredly is not), all that Christians believe would be false.

Did you even read the Scripture you quoted (1 Tim 2:5)? It says nothing about alive or dead, but that there is only one mediator. It therefore does not matter whether someone is alive or dead, they cannot intercede with God on our behalf.

So is it your contention that death does not seperate us? How do you propose that we communicate with the souls in heaven? How do you know that we can? Jesus did it (Mark 9;4) but He was transfigured first. Furthermore, are you saying that you are equal to Jesus in your ability to communicate with departed souls?

Can you please quote a typical request that you make from Mary or the saints? How do you do it? Do you for example ever pray the prayer of confidence in Mary, by St. Alphonsus?

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:30 am

"Did you even read the Scripture you quoted (1Tim 2:5)? It says nothing about alive or dead, but that there is only one mediator. It therefore does not matter whether someone is alive or dead, the cannot intercede with God on our behalf."

I'm sorry to have been ambiguous. The point I was making was if it does not contradict this passage to ask others, here on earth, to pray for you, then why should it contradict this passage to ask those in heaven to pray for us. I just didn't see how this passage was relevent to asking the saints to pray for us. And there are several cases in the bible when people ask others to pray for them (so that is biblical). The saints in heaven are also clearly in the bible, but chances are you would interpret those passages differently

Bascially, all the arguments we have as Catholics vs. Protestants, all come down to the "pope" argument (which, somewhat comically, is an argument I am not very well versed in. To be honest, there is just so much information, and all that greek slightly intimidates me

So simply put, I'm lazy

But it sounds like a good way to spend this Sunday

)

"So is it your contention that death does not seperate us?"

Unfortunately, my sisters and I started discussing this particular question, and we have now turned it into a much broader question than I'm sure it was first intended to be.

So for now, I'm simply going to say that death seperates the soul from the body.

"How do you propose we communicatre with the souls in heaven."

Example: Saint Thomas Aquinas, pray for me. There are no seances that try to make them appear, speak messages, tap tables, or anything of the sort. Never does the Church instruct the faithful to conjure the spirits of the saints to carry on some two-way communication.

"Furthermore, are you saying that you are equal to Jesus in your ability to communicate with departed souls?"

Not at all! For example, to say that I am a teacher of the faith is not to put myself on equal grounds with Christ. The disciples could perform miracles, as Christ did, but that did not put them on equal grounds as Christ.

"Can you please quote a typical request that you make from Mary and the saints?

Certainly. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blest is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."

"How do you do it?"

Example above^^ And no, I had not even heard of the Prayer of Confidence by St. Alphonsus. However, I did a search online and found it.

Oh, and that bible quote from Matthew's Gospel that I had quoted before is from Mark's Gospel. Mark 12:27.

Deus te Benedicat!
Veronica

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:47 am

August wrote:"Can you please quote a typical request that you make from Mary and the saints?

Veronica wrote:Certainly. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blest is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."

Is there a request in there somewhere?

Judah · Post by **Judah** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:54 am

FFC wrote:
August wrote:"Can you please quote a typical request that you make from Mary and the saints?

Veronica wrote:Certainly. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blest is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
Is there a request in there somewhere?

The request is in the second sentence which Veronica did not quote:

"... Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:24 am

Judah wrote:
FFC wrote:
August wrote:"Can you please quote a typical request that you make from Mary and the saints?

Veronica wrote:Certainly. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blest is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
Is there a request in there somewhere?
The request is in the second sentence which Veronica did not quote:

"... Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

There ya go.