more mormon heresy

[bizzt]

My friends, you have presented me with an enormous amount of information. These accusations are not new to me, and they do not intimidate me in the least bit. For every false accusation there exists a logical and spiritual explanation, of which I am familiar with. Unfortunately, I cannot even begin to sift through it all at this point. I do not have the apparent time on my hands that you seem to enjoy. The crickets are not chirping, the responses are out there if you desire to search for them. Unfortunately I do not think that you will, and you shall then continue to wallow in disbelief.
You might consider this a cop-out, or a show of bravery in the face of disaster, but you are wrong in this conclusion. I am facing a very busy holiday season, and I cannot sacrifice my time to meaningless quarrels with enemies of the Lord.
I hope we can pick this up where we left off in the future.
Sincerely,
Sargon

Wow what a Contradiction. First Friends then Enemies of the Lord!! I think this is a lot of information to take in there and I am sure Everyone in this Discussion is willing to give you time to Explain. I hope you will take the time to research the Material yourself as there is lots there and to me I am very Curious on what you have to say.

[Gman]

I am facing a very busy holiday season, and I cannot sacrifice my time to meaningless quarrels with enemies of the Lord.
I hope we can pick this up where we left off in the future.
Sincerely,
Sargon

I'm busy too and have a unix test that I'm taking tomorrow afternoon. But I feel this is more important than my studies..

Ok, let's make this simple. I have just one question... Was Joseph Smith correct in stating that the hill Curmorah was located in village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York?

Yes or no? No need for a long winded answer..

[Sargon]

I said I was too busy, and I am, but I just can't resist sometimes.

Ok, let's make this simple. I have just one question... Was Joseph Smith correct in stating that the hill Curmorah was located in village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York?

Yes or no? No need for a long winded answer..

After giving me an extremely long winded explanation as to why I am wrong and you are right you want me to give you a short response?

Well I will try anyway. And really it does not need to be too long.
Let's get some facts straight.
There was a hill known by the ancient nephites as Cumorah, and by the jaredites as Ramah. A huge battle was fought here. Let us call that Cumorah1.
There is a hill in NY from which Joseph Smith received the plates that has come to be called Cumorah. Let us call that Cumorah2.
Now we have two different hills, both called Cumorah.
There was a hill into which Mormon buried many of the plates, but NOT the plates that contain the BoM. This was Cumorah1.

Mormon 6:6

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

The records were hid up in the ancient hill Cumorah1, but not the plates that Moroni carried, and that were later given to Joseph Smith.

It is true that the predominant understanding for many years was that the hill that came to be known as Cumorah2 in NY is the same hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon ends with Moroni writing the last page, then after that we do not know exactly where he went, or how he got there. We know from the text that his father Mormon hid up all the records except the Book of Mormon in the hill Cumorah1. It is believe by many that he traveled from the site of the bloody wars that are described at the end of the BoM called by that people Cumorah1(wherever that was) to modern day NY.
Upon arrival he then placed the remainder of the plates that he had carried with him in a hill, unnamed by him. This hill was the very hill from which Joseph Smith retrieved the plates. This is Cumorah2. This is not the same Cumorah1 where the battles took place. It might not even be the same region.

Ok, let's make this simple. I have just one question... Was Joseph Smith correct in stating that the hill Curmorah was located in village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York?

Well yes, if he was referring to Cumorah2, the place where he retrieved the plates. If he is referring to Cumorah1, then I don't know. I dont know of any statement made by him that proves that. I do know of this statement however:

Exactly what Joseph Smith believed at different times in his life concerning Book of Mormon geography in general is also indeterminable. Only a few clues remain. For example, while the church was headquartered in Nauvoo, Joseph read a best-selling book of his day by John L. Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan,10 which John Bernhisel had sent to him from the East. In a letter dated 16 November 1841, the Prophet thanked Bernhisel and wrote about the book that "of all histories that had been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct" and it "supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon."11 Ten months later, the Times and Seasons printed an enthusiastic review of the Stephens volume. John Taylor was the editor, although Joseph Smith had shortly before announced his own editorial responsibility for the newspaper. The unnamed writer of the review (probably Wilford Woodruff) stated that "we have just learned . . . [that] the city Zarahemla . . . stood upon this land [of Guatemala, whose ruins Stephens was reporting]."

11. Letter of Joseph Smith to John M. Bernhisel, 16 November 1841, in Jessee, Personal Writings, 502. For a discussion of other journal and diary entries concerning the possible location of Book of Mormon lands, see Ross T. Christensen, "The River of Nephi: An Archeological Commentary on an Old Diary Entry, "Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historic Archaeology 158 (December 1984): 1—9. Christensen discusses some diary entries of Charles L. Walker, Reuben McBride, and Levi Hancock, and then treats the topic "How Much Did the Prophet Know?" (about Book of Mormon geography and archaeological claims).

We see that at least in one instance Joseph Smith is known to have believed that archaeology in Central America "supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon."
This piece of article was taken from:
http://www.farms.byu.edu/display.php?ta ... %20L-30469

Is that short enough for you? All the maps and scans and diagrams were interesting, but they did not do anything except prove that Joseph got the plates from a hill called Cumorah in NY, and that many early church members associated Cumorah2 with Cumorah1.

Whether this assessment is correct remains to be proven. It is becoming more and more clear to many that the text does not support a NY setting, or a hemispherical setting. But then there are others who stick to traditional views and defend them as well. For decades the assumption that Cumorah1 and Cumorah2 were the same stemmed from a basic lack of scientific discovery, not from a claim to divine revelation on the issue. I am not going to go back and make a review of every point that was made. Much of it is irrelevant to the question. We have attempted to consolidate 3 or 4 debates into one, which is never a good thing.

That is the basic idea.

Sargon

[Gman]

I said I was too busy, and I am, but I just can't resist sometimes.

Neither can I...

After giving me an extremely long winded explanation as to why I am wrong and you are right you want me to give you a short response?

You claimed that you were busy Sargon.. I only wanted to make this easier for you...

Well I will try anyway. And really it does not need to be too long.
Let's get some facts straight.
There was a hill known by the ancient nephites as Cumorah, and by the jaredites as Ramah. A huge battle was fought here. Let us call that Cumorah1.
There is a hill in NY from which Joseph Smith received the plates that has come to be called Cumorah. Let us call that Cumorah2.
Now we have two different hills, both called Cumorah.

Sargon, first off NOWHERE in the Book of Mormon does it ever talk about two separate hills.. The same hill had different names given by different peoples but it was always considered a single hill "Cumorah" according to the BoM..

Also in my BoM in the index on page 289, it states Ramah, Hill - Jaredite name for Hill Cumorah. Copyright 1985.

There was a hill into which Mormon buried many of the plates, but NOT the plates that contain the BoM. This was Cumorah1.

This is most interesting... In the early 80's when I studied Mormonism with a friend, there was never any mention of burying plates at different locations.. I guess this has changed now...

Mormon 6:6

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Oh Sargon, do you see what you quoted here? In the beginning of Mormon 6:6 it also states a "Land of Cumorah" (also stated in 6:4). So now not only do you have to defend two hills, but you also now have to defend two LANDS... Are you also saying that there are two different geographic LANDS of Cumorah?

The records were hid up in the ancient hill Cumorah1, but not the plates that Moroni carried, and that were later given to Joseph Smith.

It is true that the predominant understanding for many years was that the hill that came to be known as Cumorah2 in NY is the same hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon ends with Moroni writing the last page, then after that we do not know exactly where he went, or how he got there. We know from the text that his father Mormon hid up all the records except the Book of Mormon in the hill Cumorah1. It is believe by many that he traveled from the site of the bloody wars that are described at the end of the BoM called by that people Cumorah1(wherever that was) to modern day NY.
Upon arrival he then placed the remainder of the plates that he had carried with him in a hill, unnamed by him. This hill was the very hill from which Joseph Smith retrieved the plates. This is Cumorah2. This is not the same Cumorah1 where the battles took place. It might not even be the same region.

So let's get this straight... The Jaredites fought a huge war on a hill called Ramah in Meso-America. After this war, Mormon buried the plates there on that hill, (also called Cumorah). Later, Mormon unburied these plates and hiked some 3,000 miles to the state of NY only to bury these plates again on another hill called Cumorah where another huge battle took place 1,000 years later? Is there any proof of this in the BoM? How many times did he have to bury these plates? Can't you see the contradiction here?

Well yes, if he was referring to Cumorah2, the place where he retrieved the plates. If he is referring to Cumorah1, then I don't know.

But most Mormons claim that they do know.. They claim that Cumorah1 was in Meso-America, not North America.. At least now they do since they couldn't find any artifacts..

Exactly what Joseph Smith believed at different times in his life concerning Book of Mormon geography in general is also indeterminable. Only a few clues remain. For example, while the church was headquartered in Nauvoo, Joseph read a best-selling book of his day by John L. Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan,10 which John Bernhisel had sent to him from the East. In a letter dated 16 November 1841, the Prophet thanked Bernhisel and wrote about the book that "of all histories that had been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct" and it "supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon."11 Ten months later, the Times and Seasons printed an enthusiastic review of the Stephens volume. John Taylor was the editor, although Joseph Smith had shortly before announced his own editorial responsibility for the newspaper. The unnamed writer of the review (probably Wilford Woodruff) stated that "we have just learned . . . [that] the city Zarahemla . . . stood upon this land [of Guatemala, whose ruins Stephens was reporting]."

11. Letter of Joseph Smith to John M. Bernhisel, 16 November 1841, in Jessee, Personal Writings, 502. For a discussion of other journal and diary entries concerning the possible location of Book of Mormon lands, see Ross T. Christensen, "The River of Nephi: An Archeological Commentary on an Old Diary Entry, "Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historic Archaeology 158 (December 1984): 1—9. Christensen discusses some diary entries of Charles L. Walker, Reuben McBride, and Levi Hancock, and then treats the topic "How Much Did the Prophet Know?" (about Book of Mormon geography and archaeological claims).

We see that at least in one instance Joseph Smith is known to have believed that archaeology in Central America "supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon."
This piece of article was taken from:
http://www.farms.byu.edu/display.php?ta ... %20L-30469

Again, there is not enough evidence here... It states, "what Joseph Smith believed at different times in his life concerning Book of Mormon geography in general is also indeterminable" If it is indeterminable then it is not solid.. Please read what Joesph Smith said about the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York in his testimony. Again you will find it right before the book of Nephi 1... Also probably Wilford Woodruff?

Is that short enough for you? All the maps and scans and diagrams were interesting, but they did not do anything except prove that Joseph got the plates from a hill called Cumorah in NY, and that many early church members associated Cumorah2 with Cumorah1.

That is correct, because all of them did associate Cumorah2 with Cumorah1.. The HILL Cumorah... Not HILLS...

Also my BoM was copyrighted 1985 which was not too long ago.. Not early by any means..

Whether this assessment is correct remains to be proven. It is becoming more and more clear to many that the text does not support a NY setting, or a hemispherical setting. But then there are others who stick to traditional views and defend them as well. For decades the assumption that Cumorah1 and Cumorah2 were the same stemmed from a basic lack of scientific discovery, not from a claim to divine revelation on the issue. I am not going to go back and make a review of every point that was made. Much of it is irrelevant to the question. We have attempted to consolidate 3 or 4 debates into one, which is never a good thing.

That is the basic idea.

Sargon

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord." (The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York." Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, chapter 7.

"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah." (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

Sargon, the majority of evidence shown here and the other posts shows otherwise.. I will pray for you...

[ttoews]

Mormon 6:6

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Oh Sargon, do you see what you quoted here? In the beginning of Mormon 6:6 it also states a "Land of Cumorah" (also stated in 6:4). So now not only do you have to defend two hills, but you also now have to defend two LANDS... Are you also saying that there are two different geographic LANDS of Cumorah?

what one might also point out is that:
a) Sargon wants to restrict the events in the BoM to a limited area of Mesoamerica where a hill Cumorah is said to exist
b) Sargon wants to propose a 2nd hill Cumorah in NY
....if the both the Jaredites and Nephites lived only in Mesoamerica then why is a hill in NY given a Jaredite/Nephite name?....shouldn't it have a name from the language of the people(s) that inhabited that area instead of a Jaredite/Nephite name?

I guess Sargon will merely say that, Moroni lacked imagination and (in order to confuse the early Mormons and us anti-mormons?) renamed the NY hill using a name from back home for 2nd hill Cumorah.....and we are then asked to swallow yet another questionable explanation.

[Sargon]

I pray for patience. You guys still have not understood what I have said. I blame myself for not explaining clearly enough. You have misinterpreted my words, not purposefully I think.

Let me try to establish a proposed timeline for you. Maybe that will help. Please try to read slowly, this can be a bit confusing if you aren't familiar with it.

1) The Jaredites inhabited the land after the tower of Babel incident. Thousands of years later they fought a humongous battle on a hill that they called in their tongue, "Ramah". The Jaredites went all but extinct after this event.

2)Nephi and his family sailed to the "Promised Land", and began keeping records of their people. These records were passed down from generation to generation for 1000 years until they reached the hands of Mormon. Mormon browsed through the immense history they had written on many many records and summarized much of it into one book.

2)The Nephites, fought an enormous battle on the same hill that the Jaredites called "Ramah", called Cumorah by the Nephites.

3) Mormon buried the many many records of his people that had been handed down to him in the Hill Cumorah, in the Land of Cumorah except for the book he had made as a summary of it all. That set of plates he handed to his son Moroni. Moroni held onto those plates and continued to write in them after his people had been exterminated in the battle.

1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.
2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.
3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.
4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

Moroni survived the battle, and wandered alone with the plates that his father Mormon had given, which were not buried in the hill Cumorah with the other records.

4)After Moroni finished the book, we obviously do not know what exactly became of him.

5)The next thing we know is that Moroni as a ressurrected being appears to Joseph Smith thousands of years later and directs him to a hill where the summarized history of the nephites including Moronis last known words were buried in a box along with a few other items. In this stone box there were no other records, only one. It was a seperate location from where the majority of the ancient records were buried.

5)Joseph described that hill as being in ontario county NY, just as you have so eagerly pointed out. Moroni did not record the name of the place where he buried the summarized version of the Nephite record, given the name The Book of Mormon. If he traveled to NY, he did so after concluding the Book of Mormon, carried it with him, and buried it there. He gives no hints about the name of the place where the plates were finally buried.

6)After the translation of the Book of Mormon was complete by Joseph Smith, most early church members believed that the hill where Joseph recieved the Book of Mormon was the same hill where all the other records were buried, and where the intense battles were fought. They then gave the name of that hill in NY Cumorah after the one in the record.
Note that the Book of Mormon does not say anywhere that the hill where Moroni buried the final plates had a name at all. It also does not associate the place where Joseph retrieved the plates from with the same place where the battles were fought. It is because the hill in NY had been named Cumorah (by modern people only) that all your confusion exists.

7) Even during the early days of the church, many brethren believed the events to have happened in Central America. That idea was eventually mostly forgotten, in the face of severe trials that were more urgent.
Many leaders of the church, including presidents, believed and taught that the hill in NY is the same hill where the ancient wars were waged(as you have gone to great lengths to show). However, this was never made an issue of salvation (as one of you has claimed) and was never declared to be received by revelation.

8- Joseph Fielding Smith, the nephew to Joseph Smith became president and prophet of the church. It was his belief that the hill in NY was the same as the one where the battles were fought, and where all the records were buried. He wrote about it to defend against a growing number of LDS who began to believe that the two hills were in fact different hills.

9) As the church grew and more scholarly attention began to be focused on the details of Mormon history, many scholars felt confident that the old assumptions had been wrong, and that two hills were a better fit for the BoM history.

10) The issue is still being hotly debated in the mormon community, and probably will remain that way for a long time. The majority of church members and leaders in the past may or may not have been mistaken in their belief that the NY hill was the same Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon. If they were wrong, this is not a reflection on the Book of Mormon, or on the leaders of the church. This is an issue of history, not doctrine. If they were right, then todays scholars are mistaken. Remember that all these theories are just that, theories. The Lord has never declared through any prophet where the ancient events took place. Mostly because it isnt really important for our salvation.

11) It is not accurate to claim that shifting positions on where the events in the Book of Mormon occured is a sure sign of a false church. First of all the church has not made an official declaration about where the events took place, so there is no shifting of the church's position. The opinions of individual members have shifted.

12)For thousands of years the Christian community has debated over the locations of many of the places in the bible, and still there are many disagreements and new discoveries being made. This by no means makes it a false religion. If we discover that we are mistaken about which path Paul took on his journeys after years of believing otherwise this does not make one evil or wicked.

I hope that this timeline helps to sort out the details. Please try to read carefully all the words I have written before jumping to conclusions. If you are actively looking for flaws in my typing, surely you will find them.

Sargon

[ttoews]

It is because the hill in NY had been named Cumorah (by modern people only) that all your confusion exists.

thanks, that does deal with my objection.

[Sargon]

Gee golly did I just break ground finally?

[ttoews]

Gee golly did I just break ground finally?

sure, I missed the mention of unnamed in your previous post and apologize for my error... will endeavor to be more thorough in the future...how about the five most accurate descriptions I asked for on the other thread....do you have the time to list 'em?

[Sargon]

I admit to not knowing what you are talking about.
Could you ask again? Unless it is on the same topic, do you think it better we wait until others react to my post and we can finish this discussion?

Sargon

[ttoews]

I admit to not knowing what you are talking about.
Could you ask again? Unless it is on the same topic, do you think it better we wait until others react to my post and we can finish this discussion?

Sargon

see this

[Gman]

I pray for patience. You guys still have not understood what I have said. I blame myself for not explaining clearly enough. You have misinterpreted my words, not purposefully I think.

First you call us friends, then enemies, now it seems you are taking part of the blame for not explaining things clearly enough. Sargon, at this point I don't know what to believe..

Let me try to establish a proposed timeline for you. Maybe that will help. Please try to read slowly, this can be a bit confusing if you aren't familiar with it.

Yes confusing your interpretation is... Proceed..

1) The Jaredites inhabited the land after the tower of Babel incident. Thousands of years later they fought a humongous battle on a hill that they called in their tongue, "Ramah". The Jaredites went all but extinct after this event.

Yes, the hill "Ramah" in North America. The Jaredite name for Hill Cumorah Ref: BoM in the index on page 289. Also don't forget that Mormon hid some plates there (please see Ether 15:11).

2)Nephi and his family sailed to the "Promised Land", and began keeping records of their people. These records were passed down from generation to generation for 1000 years until they reached the hands of Mormon. Mormon browsed through the immense history they had written on many many records and summarized much of it into one book.

2)The Nephites, fought an enormous battle on the same hill that the Jaredites called "Ramah", called Cumorah by the Nephites.

3) Mormon buried the many many records of his people that had been handed down to him in the Hill Cumorah, in the Land of Cumorah except for the book he had made as a summary of it all. That set of plates he handed to his son Moroni. Moroni held onto those plates and continued to write in them after his people had been exterminated in the battle.

1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.
2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.
3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.
4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

So there is a single Hill Cumorah, in the Land of Cumorah?

Moroni survived the battle, and wandered alone with the plates that his father Mormon had given, which were not buried in the hill Cumorah with the other records.

Incorrect... This quote is taken directly from the OFFICIAL website of the Church of the Latter Day Saints ( http://www.lds.org ) where Moroni buried a set of gold plates in the Hill Cumorah..

"The family of the Prophet Joseph Smith lived in this area (of New York) at the time of the First Vision (JS-H 1:3). In A.D. 421, Moroni buried a set of gold plates in the Hill Cumorah containing the sacred history of his people (W of M 1:1-11; Morm. 6:6; Moro. 10:1-2). This same Moroni told Joseph Smith where to find the plates—toward the north end of the hill, on the west side, near the top. Moroni delivered them to him in 1827 (D&C 27:5; 128:20; JS-H 1:33-35, 51-54, 59)."

Source: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/chphotos/2

4)After Moroni finished the book, we obviously do not know what exactly became of him.

5)The next thing we know is that Moroni as a ressurrected being appears to Joseph Smith thousands of years later and directs him to a hill where the summarized history of the nephites including Moronis last known words were buried in a box along with a few other items. In this stone box there were no other records, only one. It was a seperate location from where the majority of the ancient records were buried.

5)Joseph described that hill as being in ontario county NY, just as you have so eagerly pointed out. Moroni did not record the name of the place where he buried the summarized version of the Nephite record, given the name The Book of Mormon. If he traveled to NY, he did so after concluding the Book of Mormon, carried it with him, and buried it there. He gives no hints about the name of the place where the plates were finally buried.

Again, Moroni buried a set of gold plates in the Hill Cumorah... It's been in one place throughout the duration of the story in the BoM.. This was the EXACT same place where just over some 500 years earlier the entire Jaredite nation had been destroyed (please read Ether 15:11-33).

6)After the translation of the Book of Mormon was complete by Joseph Smith, most early church members believed that the hill where Joseph recieved the Book of Mormon was the same hill where all the other records were buried, and where the intense battles were fought. They then gave the name of that hill in NY Cumorah after the one in the record.
Note that the Book of Mormon does not say anywhere that the hill where Moroni buried the final plates had a name at all. It also does not associate the place where Joseph retrieved the plates from with the same place where the battles were fought. It is because the hill in NY had been named Cumorah (by modern people only) that all your confusion exists.

Sargon, the confusion exists in your understanding of the BoM... In it's people, it's history, it's timetime, and all of it's geographic locations given by the elders.. Exactly how long have you been a Mormon?

7) Even during the early days of the church, many brethren believed the events to have happened in Central America. That idea was eventually mostly forgotten, in the face of severe trials that were more urgent.

Again, this sounds like another excuse to me.. In other words, "well we were going to shift our claims to Central America, but then you see, we started to get persecuted for our beliefs so we dropped the issue.."

Many leaders of the church, including presidents, believed and taught that the hill in NY is the same hill where the ancient wars were waged(as you have gone to great lengths to show).

Yes, including the late great Brigham Young himself...

The following is taken from Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses. Don't forget, by 1841, Joseph Smith appointed Brigham Young President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, the governing body of the church, second in authority only to Smith himself...

I (Brigham Young) lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and I know a great many things pertaining to that country. I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, but he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take. I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family. Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: “This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.” I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering some things.(Journal of Discourses, 18:361 (May 6, 1877)

However, this was never made an issue of salvation (as one of you has claimed) and was never declared to be received by revelation.

Yes, while geographic locations can't save you, they still can be used to backup your claims.. Unfortunately, the BoM claims to be recording the life of the ancient peoples of North America.. Not a single one of it's claims such as the peoples of the Jaredites or Nephites can be found anywhere in the Americas..

"However, archaeological study has failed to produce a single piece of evidence that can be identified as Nephite or Jaredite, in Mesoamerica or anywhere else in the New World. This is acknowledged by leading Mormon scholars, including David J. Johnson, Bruce W. Warren, and Hugh Nibley, all of Brigham Young University."

Source: http://www.irr.org/mit/bomarch2.html

Also, here is more damaging evidence..

"Some Mormons claim that the Lamanites were only a small group of people who were geographically restricted to a particular location, such as Central America. However, other Mormon scripture indicates that the Lamanites are peoples on the North American continent. For example, Doctrine and Covenants Section 28 says that the city of Zion will be built “on the borders by the Lamanites.” Several Doctrine and Covenants Sections indicate that Mormon leaders were to “preach to the Lamanites” At one point, the text specifically relates the Lamanites to the “Indian tribes in the West” and that at least part of this boarders on the land of Missouri.

In addition to the standard works, the standard Mormon teaching book, Gospel Principles teaches that the Lamanites are alive and numerous throughout the Americas:

“The Lamanites Will Become a Great People The Lord said that when his coming was near, the Lamanites would become a righteous and respected people. He said, “Before the great day of the Lord shall come,... the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose” (D&C 49:24).

In order to claim that the Native Americans are not Lamanites, one would have to admit that much of Mormon scripture and official current teaching is false.

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/dna.html
Source: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/mormarch.html

Or from the Smithsonian:

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/smithsonian.html

National Geograhic:

Source: http://www.irr.org/mit/natgeo.html

Nor is there any DNA connection between the American Indians and the Israelis..

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/dna.html

8- Joseph Fielding Smith, the nephew to Joseph Smith became president and prophet of the church. It was his belief that the hill in NY was the same as the one where the battles were fought, and where all the records were buried. He wrote about it to defend against a growing number of LDS who began to believe that the two hills were in fact different hills.

No.. Again please re-read the records of the earily elders... Way before Joseph Fielding Smith.. It wasn't J.F.'s fault..

9) As the church grew and more scholarly attention began to be focused on the details of Mormon history, many scholars felt confident that the old assumptions had been wrong, and that two hills were a better fit for the BoM history.

No.. Again many Mormon scholars still today do NOT believe in two separate hills.. Here is another statement taken directly from the OFFICIAL website of the Church of the Latter Day Saints ( http://www.lds.org ) about the pageant on the hill Cumorah in N.Y..

"The pageant has been performed in upstate New York since 1937. Hill Cumorah is one of the Church's most significant landmarks. Latter-day Saints believe it was here, in 1827, that the Church's founder, Joseph Smith Jr., received from an angel a record of ancient American peoples who knew of and believed in Jesus Christ. The record, written on gold plates, was translated into what is known as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ."

Source: http://www.lds.org/newsroom/showrelease ... 34,00.html

Or the pageant web site itself..

Source: http://www.beliefnet.com/gallery/cumora ... llery.html

10) The issue is still being hotly debated in the mormon community, and probably will remain that way for a long time. The majority of church members and leaders in the past may or may not have been mistaken in their belief that the NY hill was the same Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon. If they were wrong, this is not a reflection on the Book of Mormon, or on the leaders of the church. This is an issue of history, not doctrine. If they were right, then todays scholars are mistaken. Remember that all these theories are just that, theories. The Lord has never declared through any prophet where the ancient events took place. Mostly because it isnt really important for our salvation.

Hotly debated? What you are referring to is a smaller splinter group of Mormon scholars that are trying to justify a different location for the main location of the BoM given by it's elders (in the last 50 years or so).. Mainline Mormonism, all the way to Joseph Smith has already refuted your claims..

Here is another Mormon website claiming that North American is still the setting for Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon...

Source: http://www.hillcumorahhistory.com/

And another:

Source: http://www.josephsmith.net/portal/site/ ... 5e340aRCRD

11) It is not accurate to claim that shifting positions on where the events in the Book of Mormon occured is a sure sign of a false church. First of all the church has not made an official declaration about where the events took place, so there is no shifting of the church's position. The opinions of individual members have shifted.

Not accurate?? Sargon.. Again, please re-read what the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York back in 1990. This is not to be disputed..

"The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon." (in Mormon 6:6).

12)For thousands of years the Christian community has debated over the locations of many of the places in the bible, and still there are many disagreements and new discoveries being made. This by no means makes it a false religion. If we discover that we are mistaken about which path Paul took on his journeys after years of believing otherwise this does not make one evil or wicked.

Sargon, despite your feeble attempts to paint the Bible as a "strawman" in archeology, there are many many more artifacts backing up the Bible's claims than the BoM.. For one such example, a few years ago, a group of archeologists found an Assyrian stone tablet in Northern Israel dating from the ninth century B.C. The Aramaic inscription listed Assyria's foes. Included in the list were the words "king of Israel" and "house of David." Please review the links.. I won't even go into the Egyptian records..

Souce: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ology.html

I hope that this timeline helps to sort out the details. Please try to read carefully all the words I have written before jumping to conclusions. If you are actively looking for flaws in my typing, surely you will find them.

Sargon

Sargon, if you want a real timeline, please see this one: http://www.ocii.com/~cmeek/BoM_Geog21.htm

[Sargon]

What am I to do with you gman? You are very good at making up history. You simply are wrong on this one. You have demonstrated this time and time again. You do not know the history of the Book of Mormon accurately. You failed to understand my step by step explanation of the events surrounding this topic. You certainly have researched a little, but you started from the middle. Its like claiming to understand the ending of a movie without first understanding the beginning.
I honestly dont know how I could have made the chronology more clear. You just didn't get it. Then when you failed to understand you started posting a bunch of extrememly irrelevant links. Because you googled a few websites you think you understand mormon history. I have been a member of the church for a very long time, and I am telling you that you are completely getting it wrong. Do you pretend to know the history of my church better than I do? Just because you googled it a few times, and read from a few anti-mormon sites?
I dont think I will try to correct your errors, because I already have and you refused to see.

Sargon

[Gman]

What am I to do with you gman? You are very good at making up history. You simply are wrong on this one. You have demonstrated this time and time again. You do not know the history of the Book of Mormon accurately. You failed to understand my step by step explanation of the events surrounding this topic. You certainly have researched a little, but you started from the middle. Its like claiming to understand the ending of a movie without first understanding the beginning.

Sargon, I have studied Mormonism for over 20 years.. I have numerous books about it too.. Links are nice because this way everyone can see and read the sources more themselves.. If you want me to start from the beginning I can do that too..

I honestly dont know how I could have made the chronology more clear. You just didn't get it. Then when you failed to understand you started posting a bunch of extrememly irrelevant links.

Irrelevant links like the official LDS web site?

Because you googled a few websites you think you understand mormon history. I have been a member of the church for a very long time, and I am telling you that you are completely getting it wrong. Do you pretend to know the history of my church better than I do? Just because you googled it a few times, and read from a few anti-mormon sites?

The history speaks for itself Sargon.. Even your early elders have already testified where the locations are..

Even now if you are saying that the locations are in MesoAmerica no non-Mormon specialist in New World archeology supports these claims of a civilization of Hebrew immigrants in the pre-Columbian Americas as described in the Book of Mormon...

I dont think I will try to correct your errors, because I already have and you refused to see.

Sargon

Have it your way Sargon.. Obviously I tried, but you have failed to see the truth.. It's just a pride thing...

I wish you the best in your journeys..

G -

[Fortigurn]

Sargon, it's difficult to avoid facts such as these:





This is not 'making up history'.