Becoming a Saint

August · Post by **August** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:24 am

Veronica wrote: So for now, I'm simply going to say that death seperates the soul from the body.

Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,

What was the task of the priest? These were the people appointed by God to make sacrifices on behalf of His people to atone for their sins. I think you will agree that that is the most important task that anyone on earth could have had.

If that was so important, why were they not able to continue with that most important task after death? It is clear that death put an end to their priestly duties. If the body of Christ was one, in the sense that you mean it, then they will continue as priests after death.

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:04 pm

Judah wrote:The request is in the second sentence which Veronica did not quote:

"... Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

Ah, my mistake

Thanks Judah!

Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,

What was the task of the priest? These were the people appointed by God to make sacrifices on behalf of His people to atone for their sins. I think you will agree that that is the most important task that anyone on earth could have had.

If that was so important, why were they not able to continue with that most important task after death? It is clear that death put an end to their priestly duties. If the body of Christ was one, in the sense that you mean it, then they will continue as priests after death.

Well once again, we have a different interpretation of that bible passage (is anyone surprised?

) lol, anyways, the following is how the Catholic Church interprets that passage: (For me, it was easier to follow when I kept in mind that Paul wrote this letter to the Hebrews).

"The apostle notes this difference between the high priests of the law and our high priest, Jesus Christ; that they, being removed by death made way for their successors: whereas our Lord Jesus is a priest for ever and hath no successors; but liveth and concurreth for ever with his ministers, the priests of the New Testament, in all their functions. Also, that no one priest of the law, nor all of them together, could offer that absolute sacrifice of everlasting redemption which our on high preist, Jesus Christ, has offered once, and for ever."

In your opinion, do you think this is a cohesive interpretation?

God bless!
Veronica

August · Post by **August** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:38 pm

It is not just down to a pro-forma interpretation. Read what the verse says in the context of our discussion here. It says dead priests cannot do what they did on earth.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:00 am

Wow good Dialogue!!! Very interesting Conversation and keep up the Good work

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:22 am

Sorry I've taken so long to reply! It's been the usual pre-Christmas rush....school deadlines, music recitals, etc. I had started to reply last night, and then that wonderful contraption, called the phone, rang.

But anyways...

August wrote:It is not just down to a pro-forma interpretation. Read what the verse says in the context of our discussion here. It says dead priests cannot do what they did on earth.

These were the people appointed by God to make sacrifices on behalf of His people to atone for their sins.

Actually, it says that they were prevented from continuing in office. So when I read it all in context, it appears to me that it is referring to their actual office more than what they do in that office. And if this is the case, then it doesn't relate to our discussion here. So when they die, they lost thier earthly positions. *wonders if she's making any sense* It's all so clear in my mind, but I'm having trouble explaining how it is in my mind.

Well, let me know if you understand what I'm saying, and if you don't, I'll give it another shot.

God bless!
Veronica

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:35 am

Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,

What you are saying is one keeps their Office when they leave this earth? So the scripture is just showing that they leave their office here on Earth but do not Leave their Office of what they were called to do?

I disagree with that...

Let's read a little further shall we

Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord swore and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek:)
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This passage talks how Jesus Differs from these Earthly Priests. Jesus's priesthood continues forever but a Priests Priesthood was not continued by reason of Death.

August · Post by **August** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:58 am

You can also read here for a more complete treatment.
http://omnipotentgrace.blogspot.com/200 ... html#links

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:33 pm

bizzt wrote:Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,

What you are saying is one keeps their Office when they leave this earth? So the scripture is just showing that they leave their office here on Earth but do not Leave their Office of what they were called to do?

I disagree with that...

Let's read a little further shall we

Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord swore and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek:)
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This passage talks how Jesus Differs from these Earthly Priests. Jesus's priesthood continues forever but a Priests Priesthood was not continued by reason of Death.

It's seems pretty clear to me.

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:38 pm

So sorry it's taken me so long to reply! I was stuck in a nearby city for five days due to the weather.

This passage talks how Jesus Differs from these Earthly Priests. Jesus's priesthood continues forever but a Priests Priesthood was not continued by reason of Death.

I still fail to realize how this relates to asking the saints to pray for us.
Are you saying that when an earthly priest dies, he is not able to do anything he did as a priest, or just specific things? And if the latter, what specific things?

God bless!
Veronica

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:48 pm

Alright, I've taken some time to think through the whole argument on both sides, and decided I've gone about it all wrong. So I'm going to start all over, beginning with one simple question. Is the passage in Hebrews that talks about the priests and such, referring to the priests before Christ came? The answer is rather obvious, but my argument best starts with the answer to this question.

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:09 pm

Veronica wrote:Alright, I've taken some time to think through the whole argument on both sides, and decided I've gone about it all wrong. So I'm going to start all over, beginning with one simple question. Is the passage in Hebrews that talks about the priests and such, referring to the priests before Christ came? The answer is rather obvious, but my argument best starts with the answer to this question.

Yes, in Hebrews it is talking about the high priests that came before Christ...and how limited their duties were in comparison to Christ who is our ultimate and better High Priest. Jesus Christ as our High priest, intercessor, and advocate does not need any help whatsoever from any dead humans.

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:52 pm

Okay, next question....According to these verses, what were the priests unable to do by reason of death?

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:44 pm

Veronica wrote:Okay, next question....According to these verses, what were the priests unable to do by reason of death?

As far as I can see everything. Dead or alive, the high priests could never do what Christ came to do, and did, which was to shed His perfect blood and be the perfect sacrifice once and for all to all who would believe in Him.

He is also the mediator between man and God.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

He also our advocate.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:05 pm

"1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

Alright, lets discuss this particular verse before we move on (one thing at a time...discussions progress better that way, in my opinion)

So...what do you think this verse means? The context in which you are using it seems to imply that you think we cannot ask others to pray for us...?

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:07 pm

Veronica wrote:"1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

Alright, lets discuss this particular verse before we move on (one thing at a time...discussions progress better that way, in my opinion) So...what do you think this verse means? The context in which you are using it seems to imply that you think we cannot ask others to pray for us...?

I agree that we can ask others to pray for us but that is not what ultimately gets our prayers answered. It is prayers to the Father in Jesus' name that does that. Jesus is the go between, nobody else, dead or alive as far as I can see in the scriptures. Maybe you can show me some evidence otherwise.