"The Naked Truth?"

[omimanordude]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... aked+truth

I watched this video, and it has some interesting facts. I was wondering a few things as it went on discussing religion; first, can the Devil know the future and has planted all these things in order to decieve man, and second, is it in any way possible that these events and "Messiahs" are all symbolic to Jesus, and God's way of revealing to heathens "The Son"? (Such as verses I have read that say how God have made the heavens and stars to show His existence since the beginning or something?)

[Turgonian]

I don't feel like watching a two-hour video...

Can the Devil know the future and has planted all these things in order to deceive man?

He can probably predict a lot of things, since his knowledge is great. I don't know and don't really care how far he can look into the future. Has he planted 'all these things' (the world?) to deceive man? Well, if man exists, how did he come to be? If God created men, would He give them over to the devil to be deceived about the nature of reality for their whole life? More importantly, would the devil enjoy deceiving us about those sweet moments of happiness that we have in our lives? If humans were completely in his power, would he give them illusionary joy?

Is it in any way possible that these events and "Messiahs" are all symbolic to Jesus, and God's way of revealing to heathens "The Son"?

No. There is no saviour in the world like Christ. The pagan copycat thesis (< link) rests on generalizations which strain parallels. However, there is no one in history who resembled Christ in any significant way. (Take King David. You could say that he 'symbolized' Christ in some ways, because there are parallells between the two -- but David was not used by God to give an idea of Christ to the Jews.)

[omimanordude]

Hey Turgonian,
Thanks for your reply, but I really think if you have the time, you really ought to watch the video, it might clarify what I was asking. I know, I know, it's a LONG video, but I thought they were important facts.

[In God We Trust]

Ah, i just saw about 30 minutes of the video before stopping. You could tell it is an atheistic video from the very beginning. They even stated stuff about the theory of evolution as if it were a fact. They're debunking religion left and right--but most of all, Christianity.

[omimanordude]

Hey guys,
Yeah, I know, I don't like atheists' attitudes anymore than any other Christians do, but I think that the video has some good facts and points, and though they may be biased and sometimes misinforming, a good part is only facts and events that are proven in history. Hope you will look past the atheisists and look into the facts.

[madscientist]

Ah, i just saw about 30 minutes of the video before stopping. You could tell it is an atheistic video from the very beginning. They even stated stuff about the theory of evolution as if it were a fact. They're debunking religion left and right--but most of all, Christianity.

Didnt watch it, didnt have time, but u mentioned that it talks about evolution etc. Well, this has been the topic many times. But to be honest, lets face it: How do we explain our existence by biological reasons? Peopke who want things proven, and with reasons, how do we show this? Couldnt it be like a "God-controlled evolution" (another term i sorta made up... came to my mind when thinking about this)? i read some new scientist things about evolution and it caught my mind that what is here MUST have come some way from the predecessors, millions and billions years ago. of course, not by chance or random, but guided by GOD. Dont know to what extent evolution is mentioned there or to what we christians shoudl accept it but i think some is true in that. Even Bible says that first were plants, then fish, birds, mammals, humans. isnt that what evoltiuon states? bacteria, plankton, virus etc were omitted coz when Bible was written ppl had no notion of such things. But some sort of "guided evolution" must have taken place. the thing is, can we peacefully join these 2 togteher, religion and evolution, and male them stop fighting one over another? If we can come to a reasonable conclusion, then that would be nice...

[Enigma7457]

Madscientist,

yes and no. We can join some aspects of evolution to Christianity, but only the true ones. I, for the most part, think evolution to be a theory about to be dismissed. It has gaps and holes and questions all through it. It was actually my doubt in evolution that led me to Christ (Kind of strange). I don't dislike evolution for christianity's sake, i dislike it because i do not believe it to be true. I don't see the need for God to use evolution (though he could if he wanted, i'm not God) to get to us.

But some parts of the theory (like natural selection and survival of the fittest) would come into play. I DO NOT believe that it is capable of creating new species, however.

[madscientist]

Madscientist,

yes and no. We can join some aspects of evolution to Christianity, but only the true ones. I, for the most part, think evolution to be a theory about to be dismissed. It has gaps and holes and questions all through it. It was actually my doubt in evolution that led me to Christ (Kind of strange). I don't dislike evolution for christianity's sake, i dislike it because i do not believe it to be true. I don't see the need for God to use evolution (though he could if he wanted, i'm not God) to get to us.

But some parts of the theory (like natural selection and survival of the fittest) would come into play. I DO NOT believe that it is capable of creating new species, however.

So how would a nonchristian and nonbeliever explain the creation of new species etc? That first thre were plants, then simpler animals, mammals, then human. OK not by chance, definitely, coz i think it would be unwise for nature itself to prodcue a being with free will and ability to do what he is able to do. But also, why are monkeys, for example, so close to is its even scary? They can sortof think, etc, and some people believe or think they people came from monkeys by evolution somehow. although many times maybe showed false, they are so closely related to us and almost as inteliignet as we are. And old species were dying whilst new ones were created. Me personally i HATE the idea of evolution and everything be created just like that, but sort of a "God-controlled" or God-led evolution, like creation - how did it happen? By random, but God led it and made things as they are - planets and things where they belong into the "fine tuning". So just by physical laws, yet when controlled by our God, things have logic. SO couldnt similar thing apply to biological reasonoing of "evolution"?

[Enigma7457]

MadS (Sorry, too lazy to type it all),

why are monkeys, for example, so close to is its even scary?

The same reason a Chevy Cobalt is so close to a Chevy Corvette (ie, combustion engine, run off gas, exhaust pipe, etc.). The same thing created them (namely, us).

BUT, God created us and monkeys. And since lungs and DNA and all that jazz seems to be working, why use a completely different method?

I can't answer how and when some creatures came into existence (since science says they didn't come at the same time and i am somewhat of an OEC). But that doesn't mean anything. I don't think it possible for us to have come from monkeys, chimps, apes, or whatever. Too far-fetched. God made us and monkeys, and rats, and dogs.

Speaking of rats. I have two pet ones (well, my son does). And they have the cutest little hands. They wrap them around your finger and then bite you (with teeth). Wait a minute? They have hands and teeth? SO do i? Coincedence...

We are similar to all animals because we have the same creator. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Right?

Will try to add morelater, i have to go back to work (i am there now)

[madscientist]

Speaking of rats. I have two pet ones (well, my son does). And they have the cutest little hands. They wrap them around your finger and then bite you (with teeth). Wait a minute? They have hands and teeth? SO do i? Coincedence...

Ya rats arent too bad i guess!! many ppl despise them but id love to have a nice mouse or rat as a pet. well nevermind.
back to creation and so on, ya, evolution is not an easy topic i think. ok were similar coz we got the same Creator, but... human is part of biology, yet has FREE WILL and so on. also, many simialar things in brain, hormones, way we work etc - is found there.

Also heard that biology is very intelligent in the way of keeping itself, and stuff like "survival of the fittest" and simialr theory of adaptations of organisms and organisms trying to compete and natural selection and all that kinda may lead 1 to think that if nature is all that smart, evolution can be some important player in all taht. and it seems to be "coded" somewhere that it happens in this way - whether it is with virus, bacteria, plants animlas or humans etc.

ANd 1 more quest maybe off but how is it that when humans, for example, emigrated to other parts of the world, after some time they changed (e.g. to negroid mongoloid or other races), with different traits etc and ppl in north europe and america tend to be paler, towards equatore or south darker and adapted. to start with, werent we the same race and with the same genes at the beginning - adam and eve with no differences at all?

Moreover, i read something on "flies having 'rudimentary free will' " on newscientist and it quite surprised me. says something about chaos theory, but also that their flight isnt random but rather have this RFW.
ANd i had another idea or theory about creation as a whole - if for example we take evolution as a biological process to make living things, with fine tuning anf all that, cant we apply similar process to creation of the universe? i mean, still "random" someone may say, but i realized that universe could also be said to be some sort of "evolution" by those who support that theory. i never rally had, and never WISH to support that, but some many doubts i have push me somwewhat to believe that it was sortof what happened - evol, but "God-led" as i called it some time in rpevious psots. same thing applies to univers i think - God had the whole idea of how things fit into place, and at Big Bang it all started (or way before that?) and then it all started to fit as God wanted it to fit.
tats about it... some things botjering me...

God bless

[Enigma7457]

Lets start with what i do know and work backwards

Ya rats arent too bad i guess!! many ppl despise them but id love to have a nice mouse or rat as a pet. well nevermind.

Go with a rat. They smell less than mice do. And they're more playful.

ANd i had another idea or theory about creation as a whole - if for example we take evolution as a biological process to make living things, with fine tuning anf all that, cant we apply similar process to creation of the universe?

i don't see why not. Evolution is evolution. Stuff evolves, whether we like it or not. Now, by stuff i mean stuff, not species. Cars evolve (with the guidance of their creator). CLothing has evolved from the middle ages to now, housing has evolved. Stuff evolves. Now, does biological stuff evolve? I don't think so. DOes cosmic stuff evolve (ie stars and galaxies), i think they do. Stars are formed from gas and planets are formed from rocks (roughly speaking, of course). I think the 15 billion year age of the univers is accurate. I don't think the age of the universe has any relation to biological evolution, since i don't think biological evolutino exists. I find it more amazing that God could set all the forces in motion with the big bang and then, after Earth formed like he knew it would, he stops in and drops off Adam and Eve and the rest is, as they say, history.

Moreover, i read something on "flies having 'rudimentary free will' " on newscientist and it quite surprised me. says something about chaos theory, but also that their flight isnt random but rather have this RFW.

I don't know rudimentary free will means. But i don't see why the 'lesser' animals (ie, dogs, cats, rats, and flies) don't have free will. I don't think it is that same as ours. My cats ignore me all the time. But, when my wife walks by, they chase her around the house. Maybe they're conditioned because she gives them treats and i only smack them when they annoy me. Either way, they are making the choice (free will) to follow her and not me.

Also heard that biology is very intelligent in the way of keeping itself, and stuff like "survival of the fittest" and simialr theory of adaptations of organisms and organisms trying to compete and natural selection and all that kinda may lead 1 to think that if nature is all that smart, evolution can be some important player in all taht. and it seems to be "coded" somewhere that it happens in this way - whether it is with virus, bacteria, plants animlas or humans etc.

you're going to have to explain what you mean here. I had a hard time following you.

ANd 1 more quest maybe off but how is it that when humans, for example, emigrated to other parts of the world, after some time they changed (e.g. to negroid mongoloid or other races), with different traits etc and ppl in north europe and america tend to be paler, towards equatore or south darker and adapted. to start with, werent we the same race and with the same genes at the beginning - adam and eve with no differences at all?

The bible says the tower of babel. However, i don't know why africans are black and europeans are white and swedish are even whiter. Afraid i can't really answer that one.

[Forum Monk]

...DOes cosmic stuff evolve (ie stars and galaxies), i think they do. Stars are formed from gas and planets are formed from rocks (roughly speaking, of course). I think the 15 billion year age of the univers is accurate. I don't think the age of the universe has any relation to biological evolution, since i don't think biological evolutino exists.

Excuse me for butting in, Enigma, as you guys are talking of a lot of complicated subjects all at once. I wonder if you can clarify some meanings for me in reference to the quotation. What is your definition of evolution? When you say you believe in cosmic evolution are you saying the sun, planets, etc are continuosly evolving as opposed to going through a normal life-cycle? Does evolution simply mean random change or does it mean improvement or elevation into a more complicatated object?

I find it more amazing that God could set all the forces in motion with the big bang and then, after Earth formed like he knew it would, he stops in and drops off Adam and Eve and the rest is, as they say, history.

Please clarify. Does amazing mean that you believe God did this or does amazing mean "I find it amazing people would actually believe this"?

[Enigma7457]

Excuse me for butting in, Enigma

No problem. I was actually wondering what took you so long.

I wonder if you can clarify some meanings for me in reference to the quotation. What is your definition of evolution?

Change in time. That is the broad definition. Now, in the above text you quoted, that's all i was referring to. Gas becomes clumps of mass and clumps of mass eventually form stars. Evolution. Stellar Evolution. The stars burn the gas and they eventually run out of fuel and explode. More stellar evolution.

Does evolution simply mean random change or does it mean improvement or elevation into a more complicatated object?

It doesn't necessarily have to be improvement. And ti doesnt' always have to be random. Put enough gas in a big enough space with Gravity as a fixed constant and you'll get a star (theoretically, we all know its a little more complicated than that).

But, that brings me to your next question.

Does amazing mean that you believe God did this or does amazing mean "I find it amazing people would actually believe this"?

God started it all (whether with the big bang or by whatever else anybody else believes). God spoke and the world came next. I believe a long period of time was in between when he spoke and when the planet came. But, he knew the planet (namely, Earth) would come. I believe the big bang is true. God said, "Let there be light" and BANG (please excuse the bad attempt at humor) the universe started. But, right before the bang, he put in just the right amount of everything (gravity, weak and strong nuclear forces, hydrogen, a little bit o' love, some salvation, and a hint of the color green [not sure why he had to use green, but i like green]). My amazement lies in the fact that i beleive he knew and planned what would happen 15 billion years later (now) from when he started it all. There is my amazement.

Now, i am aware many don't share my view on the age of the universe (by the way, go to the bible and scripture thread and look at the topic "Bible Genealogies" [or something like that]). That being said, i would find it equally amazing if he just said "Let there be light" and poof (not the same as BANG from above) the earth was here and ready to go. My favorite line in the bible is "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth." Only because i find the 'heavens' so very amazing.

[Forum Monk]

Change in time....Stellar Evolution. The stars burn the gas and they eventually run out of fuel and explode. More stellar evolution.

Gotcha. I think of this as the life cycle of a star, not the evolution of a star. But thats just semantics, I understand what you mean.

God started it all (whether with the big bang or by whatever else anybody else believes). God spoke and the world came next. I believe a long period of time was in between when he spoke and when the planet came. But, he knew the planet (namely, Earth) would come. I believe the big bang is true. God said, "Let there be light" and BANG (please excuse the bad attempt at humor) the universe started. But, right before the bang, he put in just the right amount of everything (gravity, weak and strong nuclear forces, hydrogen, a little bit o' love, some salvation, and a hint of the color green [not sure why he had to use green, but i like green]). My amazement lies in the fact that i beleive he knew and planned what would happen 15 billion years later (now) from when he started it all. There is my amazement...

Correct me if I am wrong. According to your view, God designed the conditions and process, initiated it, and let it run its course to a predicted conclusion. Therefore when God said He created this or that, He does not mean I fashioned it with my hands, He is saying I provided for this and that to come into existence by natural laws. In a way He fashioned it in his mind. Is that right?

[madscientist]

Also heard that biology is very intelligent in the way of keeping itself, and stuff like "survival of the fittest" and simialr theory of adaptations of organisms and organisms trying to compete and natural selection and all that kinda may lead 1 to think that if nature is all that smart, evolution can be some important player in all taht. and it seems to be "coded" somewhere that it happens in this way - whether it is with virus, bacteria, plants animlas or humans etc.

you're going to have to explain what you mean here. I had a hard time following you.

Well basically i meant that biology is made so that it is the stronger and better to survive and species autimatically adapt to new conditions and it is so shocking to think that biology WANTS to be where it can - below, deep in oceans, are special plants, for example, or in extreme deserts, there are too - that life wants to be where it can, and each species wants to be better and competes and that makes it better and better and as time progresses - apparemntly - i heard that partucular genes can acutally change which shocked me. i think this was the case with people, too - they became adapted over time to conditions even if starting from a single race - or type of human. also, what about the homo habilis, erectus, sapiens, and that? isnt that evolution???!!

Correct me if I am wrong. According to your view, God designed the conditions and process, initiated it, and let it run its course to a predicted conclusion. Therefore when God said He created this or that, He does not mean I fashioned it with my hands, He is saying I provided for this and that to come into existence by natural laws. In a way He fashioned it in his mind. Is that right?

Ha nice FM! exactly what i was kinda sayin before... God had it all in mind and then as if he let it run (there was apparently no time before big bang) and ya hen it all started and formed in this way. and as processes are RANDOM (believe it or not, about half year ago i didnt believbe in random - i believed that if for example time were put back and repeated, every particle electron proton photon neutron would be at the same position - now i kinda start to believe random is possible but thats my amazement! ) He can guide them as He wishes them to be. So I completely agree with you, FM - that he made it and let it run and so it formed as He wished it. That is how i xplain some things - (e.g. why our prayers can help etc - i think of it as "He knew beforehand that i would pray at that time, for example, so He could set things to that... of course, without us knowing it has been set up like that - but had i not prayed, it would or might have been differenet etc etc - gettin off topic but...) and so.
Anyway, still amazing how it all works. also wondering whether the physical laws here are universal and whether it would be possible for another universe to exits somehwere, which for example had different basic particles, different laws etc.