Byblos wrote:I hope everyone doesn't mind me interjecting a bit here (as if that'd stopped before
).
Not at all, I was wondering when you would show up here. And before we continue, please remember that this discussion is to edify and learn, and not to denegrate and insult each other. Ultimately, we want to live Godly lives, so the discussion should be seen in that light. I know that it's easy to get carried away when one is passionate about a topic.
First, I'm glad to see the conversation moving away from the issue of Christ's sole mediatorship role as it is rather pointless (the argument, that is) since no one is claiming the diminishing of that role in any way by asking for intercessory prayers, which are greatly encouraged in scripture
1. I'm sorry that we have to disagree right at the outset. I agree that prayer for others is encouraged in the Bible. However, your statement seems to be inaccurate as far as RC prayers to Mary and the saints are concerned.
2. I have looked at dozens of RC prayers, and while they include requests for intercession, it is not the only thing they include.
3.
Mary:
"O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying."
"Teach us to persevere in listening to the Word, and to be docile to the voice of the Spirit"
" Immaculate Virgin, here I am at your feet once again,
full of devotion and gratitude.
I return to this historic Piazza di Spagna
on the solemn day of your feast
to pray for the beloved city of Rome,
for the Church, for the whole world.
In you, "humble and highest of creatures",
divine grace had the full victory over evil."
Saints:
"O little St. Theresa of the Child Jesus, who during your short life on earth became a mirror of angelic purity, of love strong as death, and of wholehearted abandonment to God, now that you rejoice in the reward of your virtues, cast a glance of pity on me as I leave all things in your hands. Make my troubles your own - speak a word for me to our Lady Immaculate, whose flower of special love you were - to that Queen of heaven "who smiled on you at the dawn of life.""
"O blessed Joseph, faithful guardian of my Redeemer, Jesus Christ, protector of thy chaste spouse, the virgin Mother of God, I choose thee this day to be my special patron and advocate and I firmly resolve to honor thee all the days of my life. Therefore I humbly beseech thee to receive me as thy client, to instruct me in every doubt, to comfort me in every affliction, to obtain for me and for all the knowledge and love of the Heart of Jesus, and finally to defend and protect me at the hour of my death. Amen"
4. There are many more examples, but these are fairly representative. It is clear that these are not requests to be prayed for, but prayers to ask for help, the invocation of names other than that of Jesus for salvation, teaching, protection, instruction and other things that are exclusively the domain of God.
5. There is not a single example in the Bible of anyone praying to a person, dead or alive, in this fashion. I think that to implore anyone but God for protection on the deathbed is clearly more than asking for intercessory prayer.
As to the question of why we would need to ask someone in heaven to pray for us, it would also seem rather obvious to be for the same reason we would ask our fellow Christians here on earth to pray for us
6. I don't think it is that clear. If you ask someone in heaven to pray for you, you are assuming that that person can hear you, and has some kind of access to God that people on earth don't have. You also assume, since the prayers are offered to saints, that they are in a position closer to God than you or others. This presupposes an RC definition of saints. Maybe you can expand on that a bit.
So in summary, unless one believes in soul sleep or that heaven is currently devoid of anyone other than God, Christ, and the angels, the issue then becomes a 2-part question:
1) Can the ones in heaven pray for us (can they 'hear' or requests for prayer)?
2) Is there any biblical evidence for it?
Agreed.
I will start with the second question first as the answer to that might dictate whether or not we can continue the discussion to attempt to
answer the first. For Catholics, there is ample scriptural proof that yes, we can pray for the departed ones, and yes, they can pray for us. The problem is that most of this proof is in the deuterocanoncial books that most non-catholics consider apocryphal (non-canonical), as well as in oral traditions. And there lies the problem; as long as we're not working from the same set of bases, there will always be non-solvable disagreements.
7. This is what I concluded from my research in the matter too. At the heart of most disagreements between RC's and others lies, as I said at the beginning, the issue of Sola Scriptura. It does make it harder when one has to contend with tradition and extra-canonical books. However, I believe that we all agree on Biblical primacy?
8. It is interesting that there appear no prayers ot Mary until 400 years after the Pentacost, and the worship of saints appeared in the 5th century. That was just after the appearance of the apocyphal gospels, which contained many fantastic stories about Mary and her exploits equal to that of Jesus. The RC regarded these accounts as false and spurious, but curiously some of them have made their way into RC dogma throughout the centuries, like the immaculate conception which only appeared in Lyon in 1140. Even the "Hail Mary" was not started until the 13th century and the last part in the 16th century. This may point to cultural development of the doctrine, rather than oral apostolical tradition.
In order to move forward, however, I will not consider any sources from the deutero books for obvious reasons. I will also admit that the case for saintly intercessory prayer is weakened without the deutero proof but there's still a good case nonetheless.
9. Thanks, it is hard to move the discussion forward if we consult what I consider secondary sources, primary as they may be for you.
In addition, since Catholics firmly believe that the saints are very much alive with Christ in heaven, the question of praying to the dead is moot. The saints in heaven are not separated from the Catholic (universal) church of Christ by virtue of death (Romans 8:38-39), as Christ abolished death (2 Timothy 1:10) and that we are all one body in Christ (Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:12).
10. I just want to be clear here. It may just be a terminology issue, but here you are saying that you indeed
pray to the dead, you don't just ask for intercession? Asking someone to pray for me our my family is not a prayer to that person, it is just a request. While prayer includes making requests, it also includes to express our needs and to worship.
11. Prayer is always properly adressed to the Father, for these things: Mat 6:6, John 16:23 (to the Father, in the Name of Jesus), Eph 1:16, 17, 3:14-16, and to Jesus, Acts 7:59 and 2 Cor 12:8. Please look at the contents of those prayers, and compare them to the prayers qutoed above.
12. Romans 8:38, 39 says this:
Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I don't read there that it says that we are not seperated by death from the church, but that death cannot seperate us from the love of God. If what you said is true, that there is no difference between the bdily living and the bodily dead, then we are into a whole new discussion about the nature of man.
13. Paul says:
Phi 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Phi 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.
Why is it better for Paul to remain in the flesh if there is no difference? He says that it is to remain in the progress and joy of the Phillipians faith. If there was no difference between the living and dead then it would not have mattered whether he remained alive or not.
14. I agree that the church is indestructable, but I do not agree that there are no boundaries between the bodily living and dead.
15. To read into 2 Tim 1:10 that Christ removed those boundaries is not applicable to this situation. The death being spoken about here is spiritual death that comes from unatoned sin. It does not say that the boundaries in the bodily death has been removed.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1Co 15:55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
is a very clear indication that these are two kinds of existence, the earthly and the heavenly.
16. This is already getting long, but as far as the one body is concernec, Jesus sent preachers, prophets, teachers and other gifts to the church. Why do that if the one body can be taught and guided by those that have died, as in the prayers qouted above? I already mentioned Heb 7:23, that one cannot continue earthly duties once you have passed on.
It also certainly does not fall in the category of necromancy. Intercessory prayers are community prayers and not designed to conjure up information from the dead.
17. I will refer you to the prayers above. E.g. "...to instruct me in every doubt,..." (Prayer to St Joseph)
Incidently, the very fact that the bible forbids necromancy is proof in and of itself that communication between this realm and the after one is quite possible, otherwise what is the bible exactly forbidding?
18. The danger is that you do not know who you are communicating with. The act was forbidden because of the danger that it may conjure up demons and not the departed which you want.
19. The practice is forbidden because it is seen as taking away from your relationship with God:
Isa 8:19 And when they say to you, "Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter," should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?
20. The dead cannot help anyone:
Ecc 9:4 But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
They cannot share in what is done in this dimension, "under the sun".
In any case, the difference between necromancy and intercessory prayers is the difference between night and day. I hope this is clear.
21. I find it to be unclear in light of the types of prayers offered under the guise of intercession.
I will attempt to tackle August's question as to how our heavenly saints can hear our prayers and does that imply that they are omniscient? This in and of itself has 2 parts that need to ne answered . a) Can they hear our prayers? The most scriptural 'proof' of this I've seen is Revelation 5:8 where John sees the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God in the form of incense (this quote, by the way, is why Catholics use incense during mass).
22. Rev 5:8 says:
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
I think it is a stretch to add "in heaven here". The cross-reference is to Psalm 141:2:
Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!
David, at the time of praying that, was pretty much stil alive, as are all saints who offer prayers of intercessory nature. Saints are all believers :
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
There is nothng within the context of Rev 5:8 to say that it was prayers of the dead saints. It seems to be inclusive of all believers on heaven and earth.
I could already almost hear the voices of decent, saying that Revelation is highly symbolic and such and that's invariably going to lead the discussion into what can and cannot be taken literally in scripture, as well as arguments of objectivity and subjectivity. That is why I offer these so-called proofs at face value. Make of them as you wish.
23. I don't think this is a question of symbolism or allegory, but what the Biblical definition of "saints" is. I think we can both agree that prayers are not incense, but are as the smoke of incense, rising up to be heard by God.
The second part of the question, b) Must the saints be omniscient to hear millions of prayers? At first glance one would think so but the reality is that it is not necessary. After all, angels are at times aware of what goes on on earth and can intercede; yet, angels are not omniscient. The bible even directs us to ask those in heaven to pray with us in Psalm 103:20-21 and in Psalm 148:1-2.
24. I think we must tread carefully here, since Jesus can also be seen as an angel in some OT contexts. Anyhow, people are not angels. Angels appear in the Bible in response to being sent by God for a specific purpose, and each of them are shown to have a particular function. Yes they can intercede, but they do so in response to God, not man. (Ps 103:20).
25. In Ps 103: 20,21 David is imploring the angels to praise God. Since they already do it continually, he is tying his thoughts to theirs in that God is worthy of adoration and worship. It does not say that we should ask them to pray with us, rather that is stands as testimony to God's love (v4), mercy (v4) etc. If we read it like you do, then we should, in verse 22, pray with His actions, which is kind of difficult. It is a testimony, which we agree with, and offer up as praise to God.
26. Ps 148 is pretty much the same thing. It is a testimony to God's greatness, not a prayer with angels, the sun, moon or heavens and waters, or beasts, trees, livestock or creeping things. Or are you saying we should also pray with the cows and cockroaches? These are things in which God is praised, not things that actually, physically praise Him. The fatc that angels praise Him all the time is to show that He is worthy of praise, just like His creation shows.
Besides which, to presume that saints need to be omniscient
to hear and intercede for millions of people is to presume that heaven is operating under the constraints of time and space, which is of this, physical world. Heaven is not of this world and not bound by any of its constraints. Therefore, saints need not be omniscient in order to respond to our prayers and need not even respond in what we perceive to be a timely fashion. God's will knows no boundary and no limitation.
27. John, this worries me a bit. Are you equating God's will and the power of the dead? I have already shown in 20. above that the dead cannot have any share in what happens on earth. I agree that these are different dimensions, but I do not agree that you can equate Gods ability to straddle these dimensions with that of the bodily dead.
28. There is no evidence that those in heaven have any idea what is going on here on earth. The evidence for that is when Saul summons Samuel from the dead (1Sam 28:7-19). Samuel had no idea why he was being called on by Saul. Yet, while alive, he was Saul's closest advisor.
In summary, the saints (including Mary) are alive and well in the community of Christ and, just like angels, can praise God and can pray for us. Non-catholics may disagree with it and may claim it's unbiblical. I would say, even without the deutero books, there's still a good case for it, albeit highly interpretive. What invariably gets missed, however, in discussions such as these with Catholics is the centrality of Christ. To outsiders looking in onto the Catholic faith, it looks as though it's all so superfluous. To us, it is centered around Christ and embedded in our desire to glorify Him.
John, I don't doubt your motives for a second. However, as I looked through the RC prayers, there are some that are truly magnificent in their praise of God, and there are some that scare me. I cannot find, nor have you presented, any direct evidence from the Scriptures that shows any practice similar to the prayers to the dead. The evidence you presented needs some plumbing to fit with the practice, as I hopefully demonstrated. I have shown in several places that the bodily dead have passed on, and do not have anything more to do with those on earth. They are not aware of what goes on here, as shown by Samuel.
I ask that everyone who reads this know that I respect you greatly, and that I wish for everyone to consider the issue prayerfully in the light of Scripture.
At least, in part...our prayers can still effect the outcome, though Jesus does have the "last word" - so to speak. And we still appear to have differing veiws of what "mediator" mean. Catholics believe that this verse means that Christ is the one and only mediator of redemption. If it meant that we should only ask Jesus to pray for us, then the bible would contradict itself (which, I'm sure you'll agree, is not possible 
)
).