Faith, Works and Covenant with the Jews

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:13 am

I have a young Christian friend who has asked for my help. Before I attempt to answer his questions I would like some input from Christians on this board.

This is his problem in his words:

I was looking through the bible and found some stuff I could not work out.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now that I can't reconcile with things like John 3:16-17

Jeremiah 31:31-34 31"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Now my problem with this is that the new covenant is with the Jews not the Gentiles and there is meant to be no teaching so is there going to be another covenant with the jews?

Thank you.

NOTE: I believe that James is talking with people who say that they have faith and he is telling them that if they don't have works which is proof of their faith then they don't truly have faith. I see no conflict with what James says and John 3:16-17.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:47 am

Galatians 3 should help with your problem. The only true "Jew" is one who is circumcised inwardly. Those of the Christian faith are Abraham's seed. The rest, who deny that Jesus is the Christ, are liars and antichrist, who have neither the Father nor the Son (1 John 2:22-23)

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:14 pm

puritan lad wrote:Galatians 3 should help with your problem. The only true "Jew" is one who is circumcised inwardly. Those of the Christian faith are Abraham's seed. The rest, who deny that Jesus is the Christ, are liars and antichrist, who have neither the Father nor the Son (1 John 2:22-23)

Thanks puritan. I'll read Galatians 3.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:40 pm

It's not so much another covenant with the Jews as it is a future fulfillment. It's the difference in receiving the promise verses receiving what was promised. Here's a link to an excellent article on the subject:

http://www.etsjets.org/jets/journal/15/ ... 3_JETS.pdf

If you have access to Bibliotheca Sacra, another great one is "The Church's Relationship to the New Covenant," by Rodney J. Decker (BibSac, 152 Jl-S 1995, p 290-305). If you can't get to it, I think I can email it to you.

As far as James goes, might I suggest that he is not saying that if you don't have works then you don't have true faith? He is speaking very clearly - we should take the text at face value. We are saved by works. Faith alone will not save us. The question is "saved from what"? Most people assume Hell is in view, but physical death (and, to a lesser degree, punishment/wrath) is much more appropriate. I think I've discussed that issue elsewhere here as well.

God bless

edited for clarity

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:19 am

Jac3510 wrote:It's not so much another covenant with the Jews as it is a future fulfillment. It's the difference in receiving the promise verses receiving what was promised. Here's a link to an excellent article on the subject:

http://www.etsjets.org/jets/journal/15/ ... 3_JETS.pdf

If you have access to Bibliotheca Sacra, another great one is "The Church's Relationship to the New Covenant," by Rodney J. Decker (BibSac, 152 Jl-S 1995, p 290-305). If you can't get to it, I think I can email it to you.

As far as James goes, might I suggest that he is not saying that if you don't have works then you don't have true faith? He is speaking very clearly - we should take the text at face value. We are saved by works. Faith alone will not save us. The question is "saved from what"? Most people assume Hell is in view, but physical death (and, to a lesser degree, punishment/wrath) is much more appropriate. I think I've discussed that issue elsewhere here as well.

God bless

edited for clarity

I'll read the article. Thanks.

Do you agree with this very short article on faith and works?

http://www.carm.org/catholic/faithalone.htm

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:53 am

I agree that we are saved by faith alone, but I don't agree with that interpretation of James 2:14ff. The problem is with the foundational premise: "The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross." Saved <> justification. They are not synonymous. While biblical writers can, and do, use the word "saved" to refer to salvation from Hell (justification), it is far more common to use it in the sense of salvation from death or wrath or sickness. For example, every single occurrence of the word "saved" in the book of Romans has a broader meaning that, though it may include salvation from Hell, is more pertaining to salvation from wrath in general. When Paul talks about the salvation from faith alone, he invariably uses the word "justified" (in Romans).

That said, in James, the word "saved" does not mean justification. It means "saved from danger," which is what the word means. James is writing to believers. There is no reason to warn them about the dangers of Hell. He is writing so that they will live out their faith and in that way live. Faith alone, while it will deliver you from Hell, will not deliver you from death or punishment.

So you know, James uses the word "saved" five times in his book: 1:19; 2:14; 4:12; 5:15; 5:20. Compare the usage there in each case. James, like Proverbs, is addressing the issue of death (cf 1:15). Why spiritualize it? So, we are saved from death by faith and works; our faith is justified (before men, as all commentators agree) by our works.

Here's a good article that explains my view in depth:

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2002ii/wilkin.pdf

Just my two cents worth

Byblos · Post by **Byblos** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:09 am

Jac3510 wrote:Here's a good article that explains my view in depth:

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2002ii/wilkin.pdf

Very powerful stuff, Jac. Thanks for the link.

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:21 pm

[quote="Jac3510"]It's not so much another covenant with the Jews as it is a future fulfillment. It's the difference in receiving the promise verses receiving what was promised. Here's a link to an [b]excellent[/b] article on the subject:

http://www.etsjets.org/jets/journal/15/ ... 3_JETS.pdf

<snipped>

God bless

[i]edited for clarity[/i][/quote]

[color=darkblue]I read the article. At first I thought he might have some good things to say but then he went way off base. He has so many references at first that I thought that he would continue to be a true Biblically based writer. But didn't happen.

On page 16 he says, "We have decided references to a renewed Abrahamic covenant conjoined with the Davidic as being a distinguishing characteristic of and fundamental to, the Messianic period. He gives 3 references but leaves out the most important right by his prime text of Jer.31. In Jer. 33 God says there will always be a man to sit on the throne of David and Levites to offer burnt offerings as long as there is day and night. Now I wonder if that was on purpose. For then he loses it.
His first problem is in saying that the grafting-in of the gentiles made them part of the nation of Israel through inclusion in the Abrahamic covenant.
The Abrahamic covenant's condition for inclusion is circumcision. (Gen. 17 ) and being a decendent of Abraham through Isaac (not Ishmael) and Jacob. Anyone who has not received 8th day circumcision was cut off, says Gen.17. The Jerusalem Council was clear that gentiles were not to be circumcised.
Also Paul said we were grafted into the commonwealth of Israel. We are
[b]not [/b] the "Nation" of Israel!
The Jer.31 New Covenant description is very clear on who the Nation of Israel is. The New Covenant is made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah [b]whose forefathers came out of Egypt with Moses[/b].
No matter how much we are grafted in, our forefathers did [b]not[/b] come out of Egypt with Moses!
The New Covenant will be made with the nation of Israel "after those days" as described previously in Jer.31.
There is no New Covenant in place now. Yeshua instituted the Great Commission instead of the New Covenant. The Great Commission is ended when the New Covenant is enacted.
Ruth[/color]

Turgonian · Post by **Turgonian** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:47 am

That's not true... 'New Testament' means 'New Covenant'.
The New Covenant was established at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came to write the law on the hearts of the people.

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:57 pm

[quote="Turgonian"]That's not true... 'New Testament' means 'New Covenant'.
The New Covenant was established at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came to write the law on the hearts of the people.[/quote]

[color=blue]Please show me where it says that the Holy Spirit brought in the New Covenant (NC).

Jer.31 does say that when the NC comes to be, the Torah Law will be written on the hearts and minds of the House of Israel and the House of Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt.

That has not happened yet. And I don't see many churches whose members have that Law on their hearts. Most serve ham for their christmas dinners.
Ruth[/color]

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:00 pm

Ruth wrote:Jer.31 does say that when the NC comes to be, the Torah Law will be written on the hearts and minds of the House of Israel and the House of Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt.

That has not happened yet. And I don't see many churches whose members have that Law on their hearts. Most serve ham for their christmas dinners.
Ruth

I think it has already happened. The New Testament is full of Spirit filled Jewish converts to Christianity.

Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Turgonian · Post by **Turgonian** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:41 am

ruthrush wrote:Jer.31 does say that when the NC comes to be, the Torah Law will be written on the hearts and minds of the House of Israel and the House of Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt.

You misread something. Jer. 31:31-32: '"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.'
The 'new covenant' was meant for Israel, but Israel spurned it. Then, the Gentiles were grafted onto the house of Israel, as Paul tells us. We are included in the house of Israel now, in a new covenant, which was made with the forefathers who came out of Egypt. (Those forefathers aren't mentioned in relation to the new covenant!)

ruthrush wrote:That has not happened yet. And I don't see many churches whose members have that Law on their hearts. Most serve ham for their christmas dinners.

The dietary laws were abolished on the Cross, just like the other ceremonial laws. It's a new covenant, remember? Not like the old one.

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:08 pm

FFC wrote:
Ruth wrote:Jer.31 does say that when the NC comes to be, the Torah Law will be written on the hearts and minds of the House of Israel and the House of Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt.

That has not happened yet. And I don't see many churches whose members have that Law on their hearts. Most serve ham for their christmas dinners.
Ruth
I think it has already happened. The New Testament is full of Spirit filled Jewish converts to Christianity.

Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

But Jer.31 says "All": "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Ruth

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:34 pm

="Turgonian
You misread something. Jer. 31:31-32: '"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.'
The 'new covenant' was meant for Israel, but Israel spurned it. Then, the Gentiles were grafted onto the house of Israel, as Paul tells us. We are included in the house of Israel now, in a new covenant, which was made with the forefathers who came out of Egypt. (Those forefathers aren't mentioned in relation to the new covenant!)

When was the NC presented to Israel and when did she spurn it?
Paul never says the gentiles were grafted into the House of Israel but into the commonwealth of Israel.
The House of Israel's forefathers came out of Egypt as God says in Jer.31. God says He will make His NC with that House of Israel.
He says that House of Israel will be a nation before Him as long as:
"Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever."
Ruth

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:41 pm

"Turgonian"

ruthrush wrote:That has not happened yet. And I don't see many churches whose members have that Law on their hearts. Most serve ham for their christmas dinners.
The dietary laws were abolished on the Cross, just like the other ceremonial laws. It's a new covenant, remember? Not like the old one.

Ten years after the cross, Peter was still obeying the dietary Laws. Acts 10.
The Acts 15 council only sent their letter out to new gentiles. If the rest of the law was abolished, why didn't they also send it to Jewish believers?
Ruth