Faith, Works and Covenant with the Jews

[B. W.]

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Here is a list of scriptures that I hope will explain the matter of the New Covenant better:

Isaiah 41:1-8, Isaiah 42:6-7, Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 49:22, Isaiah 60:1-5, Isaiah 62:1-2, Jeremiah 31:31-34

After reading these — you'll see that the Gentiles are included in the New Covenant.

Please note that in Jeremiah 31:34 it reads in the JPS, “and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.”

How God will bring this about, the method employed, and His requirements have been neglected in the interim of debate over the matter of Covenant/etc, by many well meaning and sincere people. So much so that few bother to investigate the How, When, and Why and are instead lost in a cloud of intellectual ideas evaporating in the arena if ideas.

Therefore:

These questions arise for you all — How will the Lord forgive iniquity, and remember sin no more? What method and manner would God use to do so? How would it come about? Have you thought out this matter at all? Questioned it? How would God do and bring this about? Or do you find yourself lost in a maze of deliberations leading to no place fast?

It is fine to discuss this and about Covenant and Law but if that is all one does then you'll miss the truth. The truth is discovered in finding out how God brought and still brings this about forgiving iniquity, and remember one's sin no more. As it is written 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me — will be discovered in the process.

To those of the Jews — how and what manner will God forgive sins and what is required? To others — when did this happen. To all — do you want your record clean and your sins remembered no more by the great judge of the universe? How then can this come about for you and I?

Search this out and you will unlock the mystery of the New Covenant and why it is open to all…

God Bless!
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[ruthrush]

"B. W."
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Here is a list of scriptures that I hope will explain the matter of the New Covenant better:

Isaiah 41:1-8, Isaiah 42:6-7, Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 49:22, Isaiah 60:1-5, Isaiah 62:1-2, Jeremiah 31:31-34

After reading these — you'll see that the Gentiles are included in the New Covenant.

I do not see that at all.
The House of Israel will bring the Nations to the knowledge of their God says God. That was the plan God first intended. That is why Paul was so surprised by the nations coming in before all Israel was saved. He says that God revealed something new to him.

It was that the Jews were blinded in part until the times of the gentiles were finished. Then all Israel would be saved.

But he also warned that the reason for this reversal was so the gentiles could make the Jews jealous and be saved.

The gentiles are not of either of the Houses whose fathers came out of Egypt. The New Covenant is not made with the gentiles.
In all the references you gave, not one says that the gentiles will be participants in the New Covenant.
They say that the gentiles will have salvation (Yeshua) but the requirement for salvation does not include becoming part of the New Covenant. See John 3:16. By faith we are saved. WE do not need to become Jews. Just as the Jerusalem Council declared.
Ruth

Please note that in Jeremiah 31:34 it reads in the JPS, “and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.”

How God will bring this about, the method employed, and His requirements have been neglected in the interim of debate over the matter of Covenant/etc, by many well meaning and sincere people. So much so that few bother to investigate the How, When, and Why and are instead lost in a cloud of intellectual ideas evaporating in the arena if ideas.

Therefore:

These questions arise for you all — How will the Lord forgive iniquity, and remember sin no more? What method and manner would God use to do so? How would it come about? Have you thought out this matter at all? Questioned it? How would God do and bring this about? Or do you find yourself lost in a maze of deliberations leading to no place fast?

The Way to Salvation (Yeshua) is Yeshua.
When God allows all Israel to come to the knowledge of their Messiah Yeshua, when their veil which was put on for the sake of the gentiles [but also perhaps because the Jews did not reach out to the gentiles as much as they shoud have]) is lifted, then He will return and make His New Covenant with them and they will become the priestly nation they were meant to be.
Ruth

It is fine to discuss this and about Covenant and Law but if that is all one does then you'll miss the truth. The truth is discovered in finding out how God brought and still brings this about forgiving iniquity, and remember one's sin no more. As it is written 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me — will be discovered in the process.

To those of the Jews — how and what manner will God forgive sins and what is required? To others — when did this happen. To all — do you want your record clean and your sins remembered no more by the great judge of the universe? How then can this come about for you and I?

Search this out and you will unlock the mystery of the New Covenant and why it is open to all…

God Bless!
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Maybe you need to explain just what you are trying to say.
Ruth

[Turgonian]

In what light do you see the destruction of the Temple?

The Old Covenant has never officially been abolished, but everyone is welcome into the New Covenant. Including Gentiles. Take a look at Yahweh's Covenants in the New Testaments.

Paul's epistles make quite clear that the Gentiles become a part of Israel (i.e., God's covenant people) through Jesus Christ.

P.S. An even better (and more coherent) article is The Fulfillment of the New Covenant.

[ruthrush]

quote="Turgonian"
<snipped>

P.S. An even better (and more coherent) article is The Fulfillment of the New Covenant.

I read this article. It is very wrong.

The author is saying why another author's idea that there are two new covenants, one for the Jews (Jer.31) and another for the gentiles (or church) is wrong.
It is, but it does have a little merit in that it explains why the notice from the Jerusalem Council only went to gentiles, at least.
The author's reply has no way to explain that.
I almost choked when I read him say, "There is an elect remnant among racial Israel (Rom 11:1-7). Therefore, throughout this age elect Jews who "turn from their unbelief" are grafted into the good olive tree of the church (Rom 11:23). Since this is so, the new covenant of Jeremiah applies soteriologically today both to Jews and to Gentiles."
That is so unbiblical. Paul says the gentiles are grafted into the Jewish olive tree not the other-way-round.
Both authors seem to not understand that Hebrews was written to the Hebrews, Jews.
They also seek to add the word "covenant" to Hebrews 8:13 and 9:1 although it is not there. If it was there, it would confirm that the NC was not in effect at the time Hebrews was written. Jer.31:31 says YHVH will make a NC not like the MC which they broke. The NC is different from the MC so it cannot be in effect at the same time as the other. That is one reason the first author says there are 2 NC"s, one in effect for the gentiles and another later for the Jews.
But the author of Hebrews, writing to the Jews in exile, is really talking about the coming destruction of the Temple and the cessation of the animal sacrifice system that will happen as a consequence.
He is telling these believing Jews not to worry for Yeshua is in Heaven and will take their place at the Heavenly altar. Yeshua promised that if we call on Him, He will forgive our sins. Note 8:4. This affirms that the animal sacrifice system is still legitimate at that time. And Jer.33 affirms that the Levitical sacrifice will always be in effect as long as there is day and night.
He says the NC applies soteriologically. Wrong!. Salvation is by faith alone! In John 3:16, Yeshua says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
God did not add a requirement of accepting a New Covenant or Yeshua would have told us.
So both authors mentioned in this article are wrong. There are not two NC's. And there is only one way to be saved, as John 3:16 says. There is a NC that will be made with the Houses of Israel and Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt, after "those days" that are mentioned in the beginning verses of Jer.31, when Israel is regathered.
We gentiles are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel. We still remain the gentile nations and Israel remains the Nation of Israel.
Believing gentiles become children of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob along with the believing children of Israel.
Israel makes a NC with YHVH and becomes the priestly nation God intended for them to be.
Ruth

[ruthrush]

quote="Turgonian"

The Old Covenant has never officially been abolished, but everyone is welcome into the New Covenant. Including Gentiles. Take a look at Yahweh's Covenants in the New Testaments.

Paul's epistles make quite clear that the Gentiles become a part of Israel (i.e., God's covenant people) through Jesus Christ.

This article says that Hebrews 11 shows that the NC must have been in effect because there were people saved prior to the death of Yeshua.
Yes, people were saved before the death of Yeshua; ex. Moses and Elijah, Abraham and (poor man)Lazares.
They were saved because they believed that God so loved the world that He would send the Promised Seed of Gen.3 so man could return to Paradise. Hebrew 11 is not about the NC and having to be a member of a covenant to be saved.
Paul says gentiles become part of the commonwealth of Israel through Yeshua.
Ruth

[ruthrush]

In what light do you see the destruction of the Temple?

The destruction of the Temple was prophesied by Daniel and Yeshua and was a sign to the world that Yeshua was the Promised Messiah/Prophet.

My ideas on why the destruction of the Temple and the exile of Israel occurred are just possibilities. I do not know and my thinking may change.

The Temple Priesthood was corrupted. After Yeshua's death for 40 straight years the Yom Kippur scarf failed to turn from red to white. (For 40 straight years prior it had turned white. Before that it varied.)
The number of years may have acted as a indicator to some who needed that indicator to come to salvation.

I believe they were sent into exile around the year 135, because of their corrupting the Word of God by forming a new religion, rabbinic judaism, which Yeshua condemned the beginnings of in Matthew 23.
Ruth

[Gman]

Hi ruthrush,

Just curious. Are you Jewish or a Jew for Jesus? I'm not trying to trip you up. I'm a big supporter of Israel and believe that Jews are still a great part of God's plan..

Cheers,

G -

[ruthrush]

Hi ruthrush,

Just curious. Are you Jewish or a Jew for Jesus? I'm not trying to trip you up. I'm a big supporter of Israel and believe that Jews are still a great part of God's plan..

Cheers,

G -

I'm a gentile. I belong to a Messianic Jewish Synogogue.
Shalom,
Ruth

[Gman]

Thanks ruthrush,

And a warm shalom to you also.... Part of my background is german Jew, but I'm a Christian so I consider myself a gentile also.

Welcome to the God and science forum. Mazel tov..

G -

[puritan lad]

When was the NC presented to Israel and when did she spurn it?

John 19:14-15; 1 Cor. 11:25

Paul never says the gentiles were grafted into the House of Israel but into the commonwealth of Israel.

So what? The house was destroyed, as we no longer worship on that mountain (John 4:20-24), but in Jerusalem from above (Galatians 4:26)

The House of Israel's forefathers came out of Egypt as God says in Jer.31. God says He will make His NC with that House of Israel.

Not so. It was "HIS people" who He brought out of Israel. It was HIS people whom He saved at His First Advent (Matthew 1:21. That means Gentiles as well). Those who reject Christ are neither Abraham's seed nor God's but are children of the Devil (John 8:39-44).

He says that House of Israel will be a nation before Him as long as:
"Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever."

Both the ordinance (Ceremonial) and that nation are gone forever (Matthew 21:19)


More later...

[ruthrush]

When was the NC presented to Israel and when did she spurn it?

John 19:14-15; 1 Cor. 11:25

Paul never says the gentiles were grafted into the House of Israel but into the commonwealth of Israel.

So what? The house was destroyed, as we no longer worship on that mountain (John 4:20-24), but in Jerusalem from above (Galatians 4:26)

The House of Israel's forefathers came out of Egypt as God says in Jer.31. God says He will make His NC with that House of Israel.

Not so. It was "HIS people" who He brought out of Israel. It was HIS people whom He saved at His First Advent (Matthew 1:21. That means Gentiles as well). Those who reject Christ are neither Abraham's seed nor God's but are children of the Devil (John 8:39-44).

He says that House of Israel will be a nation before Him as long as:
"Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever."

Both the ordinance (Ceremonial) and that nation are gone forever (Matthew 21:19)


More later...

If the Word of God that is written in Jeremiah and other prophets in the Tanach is gone forever and will not be fulfilled, then the prophet is a false prophet.
How many other prophets of the Scriptures are false prophets to you?
What about Zechariah 14? Is that also thrown out and never to be fulfilled?
And Isaiah 2:2-5 (Micah 4:1-7), Is. 66:15-24?
Yeshua said in Matthew 5, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all come to be.
Is He a false prophet also?
Ruth

[ruthrush]

When was the NC presented to Israel and when did she spurn it?

John 19:14-15; 1 Cor. 11:25
<snipped>

John 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Was Pilate God's presenter of the New Covenant?
Are these few Jews to be considered the spokesmen for the House of Judah and the House of Israel?
Where in the description of the New Covenant in Jer.31, does it say anything about crucifying Yeshua?
Oh right. You think Jeremiah's a false prophet.

1 Cor. 11:25 After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.
Luke 22:16-18, And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
For I say unto you , I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

When did Yeshua drink of the fruit of the vine? He shed His blood as the blood seal for the New Covenant that was to come when He returned and drank of that cup here on earth. When they drink of the Passover cup they were to remember, His blood for the seal for the NC, was already shed. At the marriage feast of the Lamb, all will drink with Him.

Hebrews 9:15 says He is the mediator of a new covenant. There is no mediator needed once an agreement has been reached. When the writer of Hebrews wrote this, there was no New Covenant yet in place.
Ruth

[ruthrush]

Thanks ruthrush,

And a warm shalom to you also.... Part of my background is german Jew, but I'm a Christian so I consider myself a gentile also.

Welcome to the God and science forum. Mazel tov..

G -

Was your father Jewish? Then you are still Jewish.
Ruth

[puritan lad]

Ruth,

I'll give more detail later, but...

There is no Covenant without Christ, and there never has been.

[Gman]

Thanks ruthrush,

And a warm shalom to you also.... Part of my background is german Jew, but I'm a Christian so I consider myself a gentile also.

Welcome to the God and science forum. Mazel tov..

G -

Was your father Jewish? Then you are still Jewish.
Ruth

Ruth,

Part of my fathers past is Dutch, the other is unknown on his mothers side. Most people tend to think that it was Jewish since her last name was Wasserman. Who knows? The real Jewish connection I was making is on my mother's side whose great grandfather was confirmed Jewish. So in a way yes there is some connection, in another way maybe not. I do have a pretty big Jewish nose though...

I think a lot of people would probably have some kind of Jewish connection in their past if they look..

Thanks for asking.

Shalom,
G -