Faith, Works and Covenant with the Jews

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:59 pm

puritan lad wrote:Ruthrush,

As if it makes any difference, Peter's vision, as mentioned by FFC, showed the purpose of OT dietary laws. They were ceremonial in nature, and ALL Jewish ceremonial laws have been fulfilled by Christ, such as circumcision, animal sacrifices, ceremonial washings, dietary laws, temple worship, etc. Paul clearly taught that "everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving." That alone consecrates ALL meats, pork and crab included.

These laws were to be performed when God's moral law was broken. We still keep the substance of those laws, but not the shadows, which is what you try to do.

<snipped>
.

Answer a question for me, please.
In Acts 15, why was the letter sent only to the gentiles and not to the Jews?
Ruth

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:38 pm

Ruth wrote:No! You need to read the passage. God lowered a sheet with all kinds of animals in it; both clean and unclean! And God said to Peter, "Rise, Peter, kill and eat." God did not say, "Kill and eat the unclean animals, Peter". Peter could have obeyed God by choosing one of the clean animals that were in the sheet.

So, why didn't he?
Because he thought that the clean animals were made ritually unclean by being near the unclean animals, similar to Jews becoming ritually unclean by being near a gentile. Understand the message? It took Peter awhile to get it too.
Peter said to God, I have never eaten anything unclean or common. "Common" means ritually unclean. That is something that was created as clean being made 'ritually' unclean by something. Like a person touching a corpse made them unclean for a time.
Ruth

God made no distinction. He told Peter to eat what was on the sheet and not to call anything common or unclean what He called clean. If it applied to gentiles being made clean than it also applied to the kosher and non kosher food on the sheet.

Besides this, even Jesus said that it is not what enters a man that defiles him but what comes from his heart.

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:49 pm

Answer a question for me, please.
In Acts 15, why was the letter sent only to the gentiles and not to the Jews?
Ruth[/quote]

Because they were the ones taking the brunt of the ignorant and hard hearted beliefs of the Jews.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Welcome to the church age.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:16 pm

Maybe every scribe the Bible made a similar error. How can we trust any of it? So much for Jesus' promise that His word will never pass away. In the end, your theory about Hebrews 8 is mere guesswork. Unless you can provide some hard evidence, I'll take it for what it says. The New Covenant sees it's fulfillment in Christ. There is no Covenant without Him. Never was and never will be.

The Scripture in 1 Timothy 4 allows for the eating of ALL meats. So did Peter's vision. Your embellishments on the clear teachings of Scripture are a desperate attempt to bind Christians to your doctrines of devils. This is the very same stuff that Paul chastized the "foolish Galatians" for (Galatians 3:1-29).

If you want to abstain from pork, be my guest. But when you teach it as a biblical doctrine, you are on dangerous ground.

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:07 pm

"FFC"
Ruth said:Answer a question for me, please.
In Acts 15, why was the letter sent only to the gentiles and not to the Jews?
Ruth

Because they were the ones taking the brunt of the ignorant and hard hearted beliefs of the Jews.

What are you talking about????

The notice that 4 laws were to be obeyed went to the new gentile believers just out of paganism. They, unlike the Jewish believers did not grow up in families that had the knowledge of the Torah.
The unbelieving Jews wanted them to become Jews by conversion and circumcision. They said they could convert only when they agreed to obey all the rules of Torah, so they needed to understand these rules before they converted.
But the Council said they did not need to be circumcised as that was not a Law of God but only a custom of Moses.(Acts 15:1) And just because they did not yet know the whole Torah Law, they still could be grafted in as long as they obeyed the 4 Laws they gave them. If that meant that the Torah Law was done away with and these Laws were the only Laws that needed to be kept, then that would apply to all believers, both Jew and gentile. And all believers needed to be informed of the cessation of the Law if in fact that were so. But the Council said no such thing and the proof is that no notice was sent to the Jewish believers! And if the Jewish believers already knew the Law had stopped, then there was no need for this meeting. Paul would have directed the Jews who came to Antioch that no believers need to obey the Law anymore, Jew or gentile. And when he went to the Council consisting of all the apostles and James, there would have been no need for any discussion on the issue.
That is not what we find in Acts 15.
What we find is that the Council ruled on the issue that no adult circumcision should be performed on believing gentiles (that rabbinic add on was the yoke Matt.23:4, 13-15), and that the new gentile believers only needed to start off with those 4 Laws (vs 21) "FOR from the earliest times, Moseshas had in every city, those who preach him, with his words being read in the synogogues every Sabbath".
Note the word FOR. This is the reason for the Council only giving them these 4 Laws. Also note that these Laws were not the "10" or even the Greatest commandment according to Yeshua or the #2 commandment either. Why?
Because, these 4 if obeyed would stop the new believers from continuing any pagan religious activities. And when questioned why they refused to worship the Roman gods (which included Caesar) they would say that they were exempted because they had become believers of the Jewish God and were under the Jewish religious exemption. Attending synogogue on the Sabbath would have been proof of this.
Ruth

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The word "But" is a conjunction connecting verse 10 with verse 11.
Peter is saying, these gentiles who have received salvation through Yeshua are saved exactly by the same manner as we Jews are.
Salvation is by grace through faith in Yeshua, not by being circumcised and becoming a Jew.
Ruth

Welcome to the church age.

[color=dark blue]What church age? That phrase is not Biblical.
Ruth[/color]

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:09 pm

"FFC"

Ruth posted: No! You need to read the passage. God lowered a sheet with all kinds of animals in it; both clean and unclean! And God said to Peter, "Rise, Peter, kill and eat." God did not say, "Kill and eat the unclean animals, Peter". Peter could have obeyed God by choosing one of the clean animals that were in the sheet.

So, why didn't he?

Because he thought that the clean animals were made ritually unclean by being near the unclean animals, similar to Jews becoming ritually unclean by being near a gentile. Understand the message? It took Peter awhile to get it too.
Peter said to God, I have never eaten anything unclean or common. "Common" means ritually unclean. That is something that was created as clean being made 'ritually' unclean by something. Like a person touching a corpse made them unclean for a time.
Ruth

God made no distinction.

Most certainly God made a distinction! He gave the MC Law which said not to eat unclean animals!
Peter already knew it was OK to eat clean animals. If God wanted Peter to now know that unclean animals were to be eaten, he would have put only unclean animals in the sheet. He didn't!
You cannot say that God was teaching Peter that unclean animals could be eaten through this sheet vision.
God was teaching Peter exactly what Peter later told the people at Cornelius' house in Acts 10:28 "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is wrong for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me not to call any man common or unclean".
And later he explained the vision to the apostles and breathren in Acts 11:1-18.
Ruth

He told Peter to eat what was on the sheet and not to call anything common or unclean what He called clean. If it applied to gentiles being made clean than it also applied to the kosher and non kosher food on the sheet.

God did not say "unclean". He said "common". "What God has cleansed, you must not call common" (ritually unclean).
I previously explained the difference.
And God did not say, "eat what was on the sheet".
He said , "Rise Peter, kill and eat."
And Peter said No to God Almighty!
To say no to God 3 times, took a lot of gusts. He had to be very certain that what God was telling him to do was not to be done. He knew God had told them not to eat unclean animals.
Ruth

Besides this, even Jesus said that it is not what enters a man that defiles him but what comes from his heart.

Yeshua was talking to the pharisses who were confronting him about letting his apostles eat without obeying the rabbinic add on rules of cleansing. It was not about kosher food Laws.
Matthew 15:1-2 "Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? "
Yeshua clearly says that to disobey the commandments of God is wrong!

But let's address the Acts 10 passage first.
Ruth

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:25 pm

Ruth, are you saying that Grace through faith in Christ is not enough? That all we who believe are commanded to continue to keep the law? To what point...especially for a gentile?

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:16 pm

"puritan lad"
Maybe every scribe the Bible made a similar error. How can we trust any of it? So much for Jesus' promise that His word will never pass away.

Does His Word include Jer.31?
That's how we know when errors are made.
We act like the Bereans did (Acts 17:11) and search to see if the Scriptures are of one accord.
Ruth

In the end, your theory about Hebrews 8 is mere guesswork. Unless you can provide some hard evidence, I'll take it for what it says. The New Covenant sees it's fulfillment in Christ. There is no Covenant without Him. Never was and never will be.

Exactly what do you mean by "The New Covenant sees it's fulfillment in Christ."
If the New Covenant begins at the Passover dinner or the death of Messiah or the coming of the Holy Spirit or the return of Yeshua, does that make a difference to the meaning of your sentence?
Ruth

The Scripture in 1 Timothy 4 allows for the eating of ALL meats. So did Peter's vision.

I addressed Peter's vision in another post. I'll address 1Timothy 4 in a separate post so as not to confuse issues.
Ruth

Your embellishments on the clear teachings of Scripture are a desperate attempt to bind Christians to your doctrines of devils.

I am very disappointed in your judgemental attitude and slander.
I have backed up all my postings with Scripture.
This forum is for discussing issues not for personal attacks.
Ruth

This is the very same stuff that Paul chastized the "foolish Galatians" for (Galatians 3:1-29).

Gal.3:1-29 is about the Galatians who also thought they needed to become circumcised and become Jewish to be saved [Gal.5]. And obey the Law of God to be justified. 11- 13:Now no man is justified by [ANY] Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. Yet the Law is not of faith: but the man doing them shall live by them. Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.
Ruth

If you want to abstain from pork, be my guest. But when you teach it as a biblical doctrine, you are on dangerous ground.

Why? It is one of the Laws that Paul said IS Holy, just and good.
Is what Paul said Biblical doctrine?
Do not eat pork is a Holy Law of God.
Do not eat pork is just (right).
To not eat pork is good.

How can something that is Holy be a dangerous Biblical doctrine?

I just want to make sure that anyone reading this knows that by obeying the Law no one can be saved. There is only one Way to be saved, by accepting Yeshua as your Savior. (John 3:16)
The MC Law never promised anyone that it would bring them everlasting life. The MC Law promised many blessings but Yeshua, the Promised Seed of Gen.3, is the only way back to Paradise and the Tree of everlasting life.
Ruth

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:38 pm

from Puritan Lad
The Scripture in 1 Timothy 4 allows for the eating of ALL meats. So did Peter's vision.

I said I'd address this later but I'd forgotten. I did address this in a prior post:

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:41 am Post subject:
-----------------------------------------------------

"puritan lad"
And Paul says that this is a doctrine of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-5). I'll go with what Paul says.

ruthrush wrote: It is not good for you.
Paul said the Law was Holy, just and good.
Pork is not good.

1Tim.4:1-5:
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the Word of God and prayer.

Where is pork consecrated by God in His Word? Where has God said he created pork to be received with Thanksgiving?
God told Noah that there were clean animals and unclean animals.
He listed them in the Torah. God told Israel that pork was abominable or disgusting, unclean, not to be eaten! Israel was to share God's Word with the nations.
Paul said God's commandments are good and God's commandments say that pork is disgusting so don't eat it!
Pigs were created good, but not good for food.
Ruth

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:19 pm

FFC wrote:Ruth, are you saying that Grace through faith in Christ is not enough? That all we who believe are commanded to continue to keep the law? To what point...especially for a gentile?

The only Way to be saved is through the grace and love of God, He came and died in our place so we, Jew and gentile, may have everlasting life.

We do not obey the Law to receive everlasting life. Obedience to the Law never promised everlasting life.

But it did promise many, many blessings: good crops, healthy offspring, prosperity, long life, safety, communion with God, happiness, etc. while we live here on earth.
God's Law is a guide to having a good life here on earth.
It is the good bread our loving Father gives to His children.

He said they were not too hard for us to do. John said they were not a burden. If you believe that God is Love as Yeshua said and that He loves His children and that you have become one of His children, then it's a no-brainer. His Laws are good for you to keep.
Yeshua said that not one jot of the Law would pass away till Heaven and earth pass away and those who disobey or teach others to disobey, will be the least in the Kingdom of God.
Why? They would have taught that God does not give good Laws to those He loves. If He doesn't give good Laws, can we be certain that what He does give is good? But we believers know that God so loved the world that He died to reuite us with Him in Paradise forever. He is Love. And His Law is a Law of Love.

The MC Law was a central tenant of the religion of the nation of Israel. Yeshua never said it would be stopping. Even when He was teaching the apostles for 40 days between His resurrection and acension, He never taught them that the Law was coming to an end. If so that would have been a major teaching they would have shared with believers and they did not. Even 10 years later, Peter still kept kosher. Paul swears he never broke the Law. He continued to give animal sin sacrifices and celebrate Passover. The apostles tell of ten's of thousands of Jewish believers, zealous for the Torah (Acts 21).
Ruth

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:24 pm

Was the writer of Hebrews 8 inspired by the Holy Spirit? Did he not plainly quote Jeremiah 31 and claimed that it was part of the more excellent ministry obtained by Christ. You argue that the writer quoted the Septuagint. So what? Even if that were true, big deal. Jeremiah 31 is Jeremiah 31. The writer of Hebrews says that Christ has fulfilled this. You say otherwise, but offer no evidence.

Let's see, Ruthrush verses the writer of Hebrews. Pretty easy decision.

I am very disappointed in your judgemental attitude and slander.
I have backed up all my postings with Scripture.
This forum is for discussing issues not for personal attacks.

I'm not attacking you personally. I'm attacking your false religion.

And you are not backing up Hebrews with scripture. You are questioning it's authority and accuracy.

Gal.3:1-29 is about the Galatians who also thought they needed to become circumcised and become Jewish to be saved [Gal.5]. And obey the Law of God to be justified. 11- 13:Now no man is justified by [ANY] Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. Yet the Law is not of faith: but the man doing them shall live by them. Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.
Ruth

Exactly. The Galatians were being "bewitched" by teachers who told them that they had to obey Jewish Ceremonial laws, such as circumcision, etc. You are doing the same thing with dietary laws.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:28 pm

ruthrush wrote:1Tim.4:1-5:
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the Word of God and prayer.[/color]

Where is pork consecrated by God in His Word? Where has God said he created pork to be received with Thanksgiving?

Well, for one place, the scripture that you just quoted, particularly verse 4.

pork is disgusting so don't eat it!

I like it. Nothing like bacon or sausage with eggs in the morning.

And I consecrated with thanksgiving and prayer every time I get it.

Trust me, you really don't want me to get into the Jewish "clean" laws. I'll guarantee you that you don't keep half of them.

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:40 pm

puritan lad wrote:
ruthrush wrote:1Tim.4:1-5:
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the Word of God and prayer.[/color]

Where is pork consecrated by God in His Word? Where has God said he created pork to be received with Thanksgiving?

Well, for one place, the scripture that you just quoted, particularly verse 4.

pork is disgusting so don't eat it!

I like it. Nothing like bacon or sausage with eggs in the morning.

And I consecrated with thanksgiving and prayer every time I get it.

This is what God Almighty says:
Deut. 14:3-8 "Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing. These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep , and the goat, The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois. And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Isaiah 66:15-18 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

This is the Word of the Lord and He did not consecrate the pig for food!!!
Ruth

Trust me, you really don't want me to get into the Jewish "clean" laws. I'll guarantee you that you don't keep half of them.

They are not "Jewish" clean Laws. They are the Laws of The Almighty God. And they are HOLY. You need to start treating them as Holy. And you need to acknowledge that they are good, or do not pretend to be a follower of Paul.
Ruth

ruthrush · Post by **ruthrush** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:22 pm

puritan lad wrote:Was the writer of Hebrews 8 inspired by the Holy Spirit? Did he not plainly quote Jeremiah 31 and claimed that it was part of the more excellent ministry obtained by Christ. You argue that the writer quoted the Septuagint. So what? Even if that were true, big deal. Jeremiah 31 is Jeremiah 31. The writer of Hebrews says that Christ has fulfilled this. You say otherwise, but offer no evidence.
King James Bible:
Hebrews 8:10 , "For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My Laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

King James Bible:
Jeremiah 31:33, "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the LORD; I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Same Bible. Same Word of God. Same Holy Spirit. Different words.
The author of Hebrews said that God said the verses He quoted from Jeremiah.

Now show me where the writer of Hebrews said Messiah has fulfilled this.
The Septagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanach. It is incorrect.
Ruth

Let's see, Ruthrush verses the writer of Hebrews. Pretty easy decision.
I am against the writers of our Bible translations that do not acknowledge to their readers that the verse is a wrong quotation of Jer.31.
Ruth

I am very disappointed in your judgemental attitude and slander.
I have backed up all my postings with Scripture.
This forum is for discussing issues not for personal attacks.

I'm not attacking you personally. I'm attacking your false religion.
Is it too much to ask that you just discuss the issues?
Ruth

And you are not backing up Hebrews with scripture. You are questioning it's authority and accuracy.

I never questioned the book of Hebrews authority. I stated that the current text of Hebrews 8, where it speaks of the Jeremiah passage concerning the New Covenant is an incorrect translation. I gave a possible source for that incorrect translation and other possibilities of how it happened.
Ruth

Gal.3:1-29 is about the Galatians who also thought they needed to become circumcised and become Jewish to be saved [Gal.5]. And obey the Law of God to be justified. 11- 13:Now no man is justified by [ANY] Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. Yet the Law is not of faith: but the man doing them shall live by them. Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.
Ruth

Exactly. The Galatians were being "bewitched" by teachers who told them that they had to obey Jewish Ceremonial laws, such as circumcision, etc. You are doing the same thing with dietary laws.

I never told anyone to obey jewish dietary laws.
I said to obey God's Biblical dietary Laws.
Adult circumcision for conversion to become a Jew, is not part of the Mosaic Covenant Law of God. I strongly recommend that no one submits to such a practice. Paul was absolutely right in telling the Galatian gentiles not to submit to it.
Paul was also absolutely right when He said that God's Mosaic Covenant Laws are Holy, just and good.
Ruth

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:03 am

Ruthrush,

Why is this so hard for you to understand? Let us read it clowly and Carefully

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer."
(1 Timothy 4:1-5)

Pretty Clear. There is no such thing as a Christian Dietary law. Everything is Good and Nothing is to be rejected.

They are not "Jewish" clean Laws. They are the Laws of The Almighty God. And they are HOLY. You need to start treating them as Holy. And you need to acknowledge that they are good, or do not pretend to be a follower of Paul.

These are Old Covenant Ceremonial laws. Nothing more, nothing less.