Faith, Works and Covenant with the Jews

[puritan lad]

Now show me where the writer of Hebrews said Messiah has fulfilled this.

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(Hebrews 8:6-13)

The Septagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanach. It is incorrect.

I am against the writers of our Bible translations that do not acknowledge to their readers that the verse is a wrong quotation of Jer.31.

So what? The author quotes Jeremiah 31 and attributed it's fulfillment to Christ's ministry. The translation from which the author quotes from is irrelevant. If you agree that the author of Hebrews is inspired by the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit says that Jeremiah's New Covenant is fulfilled by Christ's ministry.

I'm not attacking you personally. I'm attacking your false religion.

Is it too much to ask that you just discuss the issues?
Ruth

That is the issue.

I never questioned the book of Hebrews authority. I stated that the current text of Hebrews 8, where it speaks of the Jeremiah passage concerning the New Covenant is an incorrect translation. I gave a possible source for that incorrect translation and other possibilities of how it happened.
Ruth

Who cares? So what? Even if this is true, what difference does is make? Is it Jeremiah 31 or not? If it makes you feel better, put in your own Jeremiah 31 translation. It still has been fulfilled by Christ.

I never told anyone to obey jewish dietary laws.
I said to obey God's Biblical dietary Laws.

I do. "everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,"

Adult circumcision for conversion to become a Jew, is not part of the Mosaic Covenant Law of God.

Say what?

"If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it." (Exodus 12:48)

In fact, Joshua was commanded by God to circumcise them a second time (Joshua 5:7-8)

[ruthrush]

"puritan lad"

Why is this so hard for you to understand? Let us read it clowly and Carefully

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer."
(1 Timothy 4:1-5)

Guess what. I have a beautiful hemlock tree in my back yard. It provides shade in summer and protection from cold winds in winter. It provides a haven for birds that are fun to watch. It is good.
But it is not good to eat. When Paul said everything God created is good, the Hemlock surely fits that catagory as good. But when Paul says "foods created to be received with thanksgiving", the hemlock doesn't qualify and neither does pork. Neither hemlock nor pork is made Holy by the Word of God as an edible food.
Ruth

Pretty Clear. There is no such thing as a Christian Dietary law. Everything is Good and Nothing is to be rejected.

They are not "Jewish" clean Laws. They are the Laws of The Almighty God. And they are HOLY. You need to start treating them as Holy. And you need to acknowledge that they are good, or do not pretend to be a follower of Paul.

These are Old Covenant Ceremonial laws. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see then that the issue for you boils down to whether we are under a New Covenant that changes God's Holy, just and good Mosaic Covenant (MC) directives so that we need not follow them any longer or not. Am I right?
So if I prove we are still under the MC Law, you will follow God's MC Law?
Ruth

[ruthrush]

"puritan lad"
ruthrush wrote:"]Now show me where the writer of Hebrews said Messiah has fulfilled this.[/

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:6 says,"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. "

What is a mediator? It is someone who helps parties negotiate and come to an agreement. When the agreement is reached, the mediator's position is not needed. The passage above says that Yeshua is [not was] the mediator of a New Covenant. Therefore the agreement has not been reached and the New Covenant (NC)was still not in place at the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
That NC was established at the time of Jeremiah and God stated His terms. The other parties to that agreement are the Houses of Israel and the Houses of Judah who have not agreed yet to those terms. When they agree, Yeshua will no longer be a mediator for that NC.
The promises of God writing the MC Law, His Torah, on the hearts and minds of Israel, is a better promise that under the MC where Israel was to write the Law on their own heart. It also has the better promise that all people will know the Lord and their past sins will not be remembered any more.
Israel was sent into exile in 135AD. God said He would not do that unless they disobeyed His MC Law. They were not sent because they refused to acknowledge Yeshua as the Messiah, for Acts 21 says tens of thousands of Jews came to believe in Yeshua in the time of Acts. And Paul says that God blinded the eyes of some so that the gentiles might be saved.
So why were they exiled? First of all the Levitic Priesthood had become corrupt. It was supposed to be the leader for the people and it wasn't doing that job. In fact it had been instrumental in falsely judging Yeshua to death. Some of the high Priests were not of the Priestly line appointed by God and thus desecrated the Temple by their presence. Not all, of course. Zachariah, Elizabeth's husband was a legitimate Priest. IAlso the corrupt priesthood allowed the pharisees to tell the people they must obey man-made laws and disregard some of God's Laws. Yeshua strongly condemned these pharisees.
The destruction of the temple, not only showed that Yeshua was a legitimate Prophet, which should have brought sceptics to the truth of who He is, but it also showed God's displeasure with the corrupt leadership and served as an ultimate indication of His withdrawal of atonement for those who failed to believe Yeshua.
The current rabbinic judaism is a continuation of the pharisees of that time. Thus, God has not allowed them to return to the land for this long, long exile period.

I have a dentist apointment. I'll continue later.
Ruth

<snipped>

[FFC]

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I'll take this simple route since I don't know the difference between a Coney and a pygarg.

[puritan lad]

So Christ's work isn't finished yet? He'll be so disappointed to find that out.

[Byblos]

I see then that the issue for you boils down to whether we are under a New Covenant that changes God's Holy, just and good Mosaic Covenant (MC) directives so that we need not follow them any longer or not. Am I right?

Ruth,

The New Covenant didn't change anything, it always was and is. Everything else, including, no, particularly the Mosaic Law, was a mere stepping stone. Let me ask you this: how is one saved?

[ruthrush]

So Christ's work isn't finished yet? He'll be so disappointed to find that out.

Of course it isn't finished. He will be coming back to judge and rule as King. Unless you don't count those as work.
His work of being the atonement for sin was finished on the cross.
His work of shedding His blood for the seal of the NC is finished.
His work of correct teaching to those who would go forth with the Gospel message was done before His acension.

You know that there were two prophesied comings of the Messiah. One as Savior and one as King.
When Israel says, "Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai" (Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord) He will come again. Just as He said in Matthew 24 (with His angels) and Zech.14 (as YHVH).
Ruth

[ruthrush]

I see then that the issue for you boils down to whether we are under a New Covenant that changes God's Holy, just and good Mosaic Covenant (MC) directives so that we need not follow them any longer or not. Am I right?

Ruth,

The New Covenant didn't change anything, it always was and is. Everything else, including, no, particularly the Mosaic Law, was a mere stepping stone. Let me ask you this: how is one saved?

John 3:16

[Byblos]

I see then that the issue for you boils down to whether we are under a New Covenant that changes God's Holy, just and good Mosaic Covenant (MC) directives so that we need not follow them any longer or not. Am I right?

Ruth,

The New Covenant didn't change anything, it always was and is. Everything else, including, no, particularly the Mosaic Law, was a mere stepping stone. Let me ask you this: how is one saved?

John 3:16

I have to admit, I was surprised by your answer. I was expecting some lengthy speech on keeping the law. I am also confused (what else is new). How is it that you can believe in the Son and be saved and not believe that his salvific process (i.e. the New Covenant) is complete? If you can describe it in a little detail it'd be much appreciated.

Byblos.

[ruthrush]

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I'll take this simple route since I don't know the difference between a Coney and a pygarg.

Galatians 5: 5-8
5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Messiah Yeshua neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Righteousness (note Luke1:5-6)is something believers want to achieve. The Holy Spirit was sent to help us attain that goal. Circumcision is not nesessary for Yeshua brought Jew and gentile into one body. We need to have faith and be faithful. That faith will show itself through our love.

7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

They are being told they need to become Jews and be circumcised to be saved. Paul says that's a lie. The Holy Spirit they have been given attests to their salvation.

13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

They have received the promise of eternal life and freedom from the death penalty they deserved because of their sin. But they are not to continue to sin. They are freed form their bondage to satan. They are to show the fruits of the Spirit they've received to each other and serve one another in love. Yeshua said they will know you by your love for one another. The entire Law about how we live together is based on loving one another.
Yeshua said the greatest Law is to Love God and to love our neighbor is #2.
I do not believe that Paul is saying they only need to love their neighbor and not God. And if we do love God then we of course will obey Him. We will obey all His Laws.

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Messiah Yeshua have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

If Paul meant they did not have to obey Law, by verse 18, why did he give them these Laws in verses 19-21 and even go so far as to say their promise of eternal life hinges on their obedience to them.
Remember these were new believers just out of a life of paganism. They had to learn a lot about how their lives must change now. They were previously given only 4 Laws, now Paul is teaching them some more, mostly how to obey the #2 Law in the correct way of righteousness that is pleasing to God.
They are not yet under the full Mosaic Covenant Law as they don't yet know it all. They were only responsible for the 4. But here Paul gives them more that they are responsible for. He even says their salvation depends on keeping them.
Numbers 15:30-31 does say that those who intentionally disobey the Law, blaspheme God.
Ruth

[ruthrush]

I see then that the issue for you boils down to whether we are under a New Covenant that changes God's Holy, just and good Mosaic Covenant (MC) directives so that we need not follow them any longer or not. Am I right?

Ruth,

The New Covenant didn't change anything, it always was and is. Everything else, including, no, particularly the Mosaic Law, was a mere stepping stone. Let me ask you this: how is one saved?

John 3:16

I have to admit, I was surprised by your answer. I was expecting some lengthy speech on keeping the law. I am also confused (what else is new). How is it that you can believe in the Son and be saved and not believe that his salvific process (i.e. the New Covenant) is complete? If you can describe it in a little detail it'd be much appreciated.

Byblos.

Because John 3:16 doesn't say I must agree to any covenant to be saved. The thief on the cross didn't agree to any New Covenant. Abraham, poor man Lazares, Moses and Elijah didn't agree to any New Covenant. Salvation is by faith in Yeshua as the Promised Seed of Gen.3, the atoning righteous servant of Is.53 and the Son of God in John 3:16.
Read Jer.31. The NC is made with the Houses of Israel and Judah whose forefathers came out of Egypt. Our forefathers did not come out of Egypt.
Ruth

[FFC]

Ruth, so now you are saying that grace through faith alone is not sufficient? So is it grace through faith + works that we need to do to see the kingdom of God?

If you think you are sufficient in yourself to keep God's laws and thereby walk righteously in God's eyes than more power to you. The only other person who ever did that was Jesus.

[ruthrush]

Ruth, so now you are saying that grace through faith alone is not sufficient? So is it grace through faith + works that we need to do to see the kingdom of God?

If you think you are sufficient in yourself to keep God's laws and thereby walk righteously in God's eyes than more power to you. The only other person who ever did that was Jesus.

Where in the world did you get that out of my post?
God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This is the promise of Salvation.

Can you explain Luke 1:5-6, "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How did they get to be righteous and blameless? How could they be said to keep all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord?
How do you reconcile this with "There is no one righteous, no not one?
And, For all have sinned.
Ruth

[FFC]

Ruth, so now you are saying that grace through faith alone is not sufficient? So is it grace through faith + works that we need to do to see the kingdom of God?

If you think you are sufficient in yourself to keep God's laws and thereby walk righteously in God's eyes than more power to you. The only other person who ever did that was Jesus.

Where in the world did you get that out of my post?
God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This is the promise of Salvation.

Can you explain Luke 1:5-6, "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How did they get to be righteous and blameless? How could they be said to keep all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord?
How do you reconcile this with "There is no one righteous, no not one?
And, For all have sinned.
Ruth

They may have kept them, but not perfectly, or your Romans 3 quote would be a contradiction. The point is there is none righteous and no matter how much of the law you try to keep unless you do it perfectly you have failed. You seem to think that we are commanded to continue to try to obey a law that brought death to us, but you are wrong! No matter how many scriptures verses you try to put your messianic spin on, it comes down to this... you are either under the law or under Grace?

Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:


Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;


Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.


Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,


Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[ruthrush]

"puritan lad"

[quote from"ruthrush"]Now show me where the writer of Hebrews said Messiah has fulfilled this.
<snipped>
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Who broke theMosaic Covenant (MC) Laws? Israel.
Who is God speaking to and making this new covenant (NC) with? The people whose forefathers came out of Egypt.
Ruth

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord:

After what days? Where do we find the anticedent of the pronoun "Those"? Where it is usually found, in the preceeding passages. And what do we find there? The regathering of the Houses of Israel and Judah.
Ruth

I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer.31:33 says, "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My Torah [My Law] in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


"My Torah", My Law is the MC Law. It is a singular Law. The same MC Law continues in the NC. Every jot and tittle continues just as Yeshua said, until Heaven and earth pass away.
So how is this a NC? YHVH says that this time, He will write the Law on their hearts and minds. Israel will finally become the Nation of Priests they were intended to be. They will be the people who teach the Torah to the nations. (Micah 4: The Torah will go forth from Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Swords will be beaten into plowshares and nations will learn war no more.)
Ruth

And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Yeshua gave the Great Commission after His resurrection for His disciples to go forth to the world with the gospel message of salvation. As you can see, there would be no need for that if the NC had been in place. And the Great Commission is still in place so there is still no NC.Ruth

For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."


In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away
(Hebrews 8:6-13)

Hebrew 8:13 does not contain the word "covenant".

It says, "In to say "new", He has made the first old and the one becoming old and growing old is near destruction". (There is also no word "covenant" in the next verse either.)

If this is about the MC, then the MC had not yet been abolished. And the New Covenant was not yet in place at the writing of the Book of Hebrews.

But the thing the writer is speaking of is the Temple. Yeshua prophesied the Temple would be destroyed and it would be happening soon. The Jewish believers that were receiving this letter, were worried what would happen without the sacrifice system. This letter tells them not to worry, Yeshua is our (Better) Priest in Heaven (not earth- Heb.8:4) in a better Sanctuary and He promised to forgive our sins.
The Temple not the Law is destroyed just as Yeshua said!
Ruth

Adult circumcision for conversion to become a Jew, is not part of the Mosaic Covenant Law of God.

Say what?

"If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it." (Exodus 12:48)

In fact, Joshua was commanded by God to circumcise them a second time (Joshua 5:7-8)[/quote]



YHVH gave the MC Law to the children of Israel when He spoke to them from Mt. Sinai. They were afraid of Him and asked that He speak to Moses instead and them Moses could tell the rest of the Law to them. That is what happened. Ex.20:1 begins the giving of the MC Law and it ends in Deut.31:26 when Moses places the Book of the Law next to the Ark that contains the 10 commandments.

There is only one commandment concerning circumcision in this Book of the Law. It says that 8 day old boys are to be circumcised on the eighth day. There is no adult conversion Laws in the MC Law.
The Joshua circumcision was only the children Of Israel whose fathers came out of Egypt and had not circumcised their children along the way.
And the Ex.12 circumcision was for the first Passover and the gentiles who came out of Egypt with Moses.
Ruth