FFC wrote:Ruth, so now you are saying that grace through faith alone is not sufficient? So is it grace through faith + works that we need to do to see the kingdom of God?
If you think you are sufficient in yourself to keep God's laws and thereby walk righteously in God's eyes than more power to you. The only other person who ever did that was Jesus.
Where in the world did you get that out of my post?
God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
This is the promise of Salvation.
Can you explain Luke 1:5-6, "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
How did they get to be righteous and blameless? How could they be said to keep all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord?
How do you reconcile this with "There is no one righteous, no not one?
And, For all have sinned.
Ruth
They may have kept them, but not perfectly, or your Romans 3 quote would be a contradiction.
Actually it was from Ps.14.
Luke says they were blameless! Luke 1 is the true Word of God.
It is not a condradiction. They kept all the Law. They Law has both rules for keeping and a sacrificial system to forgive you when you mess up. They were obedient to the Law and were forgiven for their sins. Lev.16 says on Yom Kippur, all their sins could be forgiven. God knows people are human and mess up. And He provided for their mess ups. He is a loving Heavenly Father who forgives His repentant children.
But forgiven children still are not able to reurn to Paradise. They need to be like Adam before the Fall, sinless. None of us are like that. We have all sinned. So we are all under the same death penalty that Adam received. We cannot go to Paradise, past that flaming sword. Yet that thief on the cross, who said he was deserving of his crucifixion, went to Paradise.
There is only one Way to be saved. John 3:16. The Promised Seed of Gen.3. Yeshua, the perfect atoning sacrifice, like no other sacrifice could, wiped away all traces of our sin and made us as perfect as Adam and Eve before the Fall. Justified.
Ruth
The point is there is none righteous and no matter how much of the law you try to keep unless you do it perfectly you have failed.
That is almost right. We all mess up but Yeshua says that if we go to Him and repent, He will forgive our sins and we will be righteous as Z&E. And we do mess up. If there was only one Law, such as Adam had, we'd still mess up. It's not the MC Law that brings death, but any Law; the Law given to Adam and Eve, the Laws of Noah, the MC Law, the Laws of Paul, the 4 Laws given to the new believers, we would all break. We can't keep any of God's Laws perfectly. But we can be forgiven and be righteous by the grace of God. Z&E were righteous because of the grace of God. God's grace did not start with Yeshua's death. God has always been gracious. Think of Ninevah. Jonah knew God would forgive them and Jonah didn't want that to happen because they were horribly evil.
But the most wonderful example of God's grace is that he came and died in our place so that we could have everlasting life. And that forgiveness came not by obeying any Law. But by simply believing in the Gift of Love, John 3:16.
Ruth
You seem to think that we are commanded to continue to try to obey a law that brought death to us, but you are wrong!
Are we still commanded to keep the Noahide law? It's sign is still in the sky? Was it ever done away with? And if you disobey it, you are still condemned to die for your sin.
What about those 4 Jer.Council Laws? Or the Laws Paul said we needed to keep? What about loving your neighbor, or loving God? You cannot avoid God's Law by destroying the MC Law. It wasn't the only source of the death penalty.
But God said He gave it for your good. Paul said it was Holy, just and good. Yeshua said not one jot will pass away till Heaven and earth pass away. John said that if you love God you will keep His commandments and His commandments are not burdensome.
And I can attest, they will bring blessings just as God promised they would.
And when we mess up, Yeshua has promised to forgive us.
Ruth
No matter how many scriptures verses you try to put your messianic spin on, it comes down to this... you are either under the law or under Grace?
Then when Yeshua said that the Saints obey God's commandments and have the faith of Yeshua, that was a lie? Grace or Law has never been a choice God required of any of His children. Even Adam and Eve received grace, when God did not kill them the very day they sinned.
Ruth
Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Isn't that just what I said. Paul said He was blameless just like Z&E. Yet he needed Yeshua to be saved.
Ruth
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Yep. Two different things. Yeshua atoned for our sin so we might have everlasting life that required that we be sinless as Adam before the fall.
The animal sacrifice system of the MC never promised everlasting life just forgiveness of our sins which still just left us "forgiven sinners". Yeshua made us as clean as a new born, without spot or blemish.
Ruth
Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Quick question for you Ruth. How is one Blameless? What are they Blameless to?
Paul says these things were Gain to himself. However he considered them a loss for Christ. Everything he did no matter what, it was considered a loss! Why is that? If Paul was blameless according to the Law of God then what would be the reason why Paul would consider them a Loss for Christ? Because with the Law he did not have Salvation and only with Christ (not works) he had Salvation. I believe this is what FFC is trying to get at.
Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Quick question for you Ruth. How is one Blameless? What are they Blameless to?
Paul says these things were Gain to himself. However he considered them a loss for Christ. Everything he did no matter what, it was considered a loss! Why is that? If Paul was blameless according to the Law of God then what would be the reason why Paul would consider them a Loss for Christ? Because with the Law he did not have Salvation and only with Christ (not works) he had Salvation. I believe this is what FFC is trying to get at.
If I understood Ruth correctly, she (please forgive the assumption, I do not know your gender) is arguing that salvation is through Christ, not the law. The law is good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin. To what beneficial extent that is I do not know (Ruth, could you expand on that a bit? or please correct me where I'm wrong).
Byblos.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
I see you are being bombarded with questions right now, but when you get a chance, I would like for you to explain this scripture.
"For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." (1 Corinthians 7:19)
I thought circumcision was one of the commandments of God.
Once you explain this, you'll be on your way to Biblical Truth...
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
I see you are being bombarded with questions right now, but when you get a chance, I would like for you to explain this scripture.
"For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." (1 Corinthians 7:19)
I thought circumcision was one of the commandments of God.
Once you explain this, you'll be on your way to Biblical Truth...
It doesn't matther if you are circumcised or uncircumcised, Jew or gentile, John 3:16 says Yeshua died for all who will believe.
Some people were telling the new beliving gentiles that they needed to be circumcised and become Jewish. That was a lie and Paul and the Jerusalem Council made that clear.
So the new believing gentiles did not need to be circumcised as the pharisaical add-ons to the Law asserted.
In fact, if you look at Acts 15:1 you will see that the adult circumcision ruling is called a "custom" of Moses, not a Law of God. That is correct. There were no MC Laws for adult conversion / circumcision.
Why it was called a custom of Moses, is that during the stay and plagues in Egypt, some Egyptians came to know the true God. God allowed for these believers during the last "death of the first born" plague. They were allowed to celebrate the Passover as the Jews did and put the blood on their doorposts so their firstborn did not die. But He made the stipulation that they agree to be circumcised. He also allowed for those who wished then to come out of Egypt with the Jews. Those who went out of Egypt with Moses became part of the Nation of Israel.
All the regulations of the first Passover that were to continue are clearly noted in the Ex.12 passage. The adult circumcision part did not have such an instruction. And those others that were to continue were also reiterated within the giving of the Mosaic Covenant Law in Ex.20 to Deut.31.
The Jerusalem Council was correct in stating adult circumcision/ conversion was /is not a MC Law of God.
The only circumcision Law in the MC Law is 8th day infant circumcision.
In the passage above Paul was writing to the new gentile believers in Corinth. who also were being urged by followers of the pharisees, that they needed to be circumcised, adult circumcision to become Jewish. His sentence is saying adult circumcision is not a Law of God, don't do it. But what you should do is obey the real commandments of God.
Ruth
Are we still commanded to circumcise our 8 day old infants (Leviticus 12:3)? How is this commandment different from other commandments which God tells us to obey (See Scripture above)?
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
Byblos wrote:
<snipped>
If I understood Ruth correctly, she (please forgive the assumption, I do not know your gender) is arguing that salvation is through Christ, not the law. The law is good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin. To what beneficial extent that is I do not know (Ruth, could you expand on that a bit? or please correct me where I'm wrong).
Byblos.
My name indeed is Ruth and I am a female, 67 year old, great grandmother from the USA. I am a gentile within the Messianic Jewish community for more than 14 years.
Yes, what you said is correct. I believe that salvation is through the Messiah Yeshua.
The MC Law, at the time of Acts was still "good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin". Now just how that applies is different, since there is no animal sacrifice system in place. Of course the MC Law is still in effect and it can bring people to repentance and sometimes to the knowledge of Yeshua, but the only way to have forgiveness today is through Yeshua, our Heavenly Priest. He has promised He would do that for us when we called upon Him.
I must repeat again that the MC Law offers no means of eternal salvation.
What obedience to the MC Law offers is good health, prosperity, good crops, safety, civil societies, union with God and long life here on earth. Blessings, blessings and more blessings.
Ruth
Byblos wrote:
<snipped>
If I understood Ruth correctly, she (please forgive the assumption, I do not know your gender) is arguing that salvation is through Christ, not the law. The law is good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin. To what beneficial extent that is I do not know (Ruth, could you expand on that a bit? or please correct me where I'm wrong).
Byblos.
My name indeed is Ruth and I am a female, 67 year old, great grandmother from the USA. I am a gentile within the Messianic Jewish community for more than 14 years.
Yes, what you said is correct. I believe that salvation is through the Messiah Yeshua.
The MC Law, at the time of Acts was still "good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin". Now just how that applies is different, since there is no animal sacrifice system in place. Of course the MC Law is still in effect and it can bring people to repentance and sometimes to the knowledge of Yeshua, but the only way to have forgiveness today is through Yeshua, our Heavenly Priest. He has promised He would do that for us when we called upon Him.
I must repeat again that the MC Law offers no means of eternal salvation.
What obedience to the MC Law offers is good health, prosperity, good crops, safety, civil societies, union with God and long life here on earth. Blessings, blessings and more blessings.
Ruth
So what are you saying, Ruth? Unless we all become Messianic Jews in additions to being Christians and keep all of the MC laws we won't be blessed? I can feel that weight already.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
quote="bizzt"
Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Quick question for you Ruth. How is one Blameless? What are they Blameless to?[/quote]
Luke 1:5-6: "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord blameless."
E&Z were blameless as to the standards for obedience to the MC Law.
They obeyed the rules for sacrifice, whenever they sinned, and were forgiven. God termed that being righteous. That was God's MC requirements.
Were they saved at that point? Probably. They knew the Scriptures and probably believed that God would fulfill His promise to send the Messiah who would lay down His life for their Salvation as it said in Is.53. That was the means of Salvation before Yeshua revealed who He was. And later, they seemed to believe that Miriam carried the Messiah and they had a son who preached the "Yeshua, the Lamb of God" message. So I expect to meet them in Paradise.
Ruth
Paul says these things were Gain to himself. However he considered them a loss for Christ. Everything he did no matter what, it was considered a loss! Why is that? If Paul was blameless according to the Law of God then what would be the reason why Paul would consider them a Loss for Christ? Because with the Law he did not have Salvation and only with Christ (not works) he had Salvation. I believe this is what FFC is trying to get at.
When you place on one side of a scale all your good works and even add all the blessings you received from them here on earth, and put on the other side the work of Yeshua and the profit we acquire from what He did for us, our side is nothing in comparison and less than nothing when it comes to purchasing our salvation. If our works cause us to rely on them and reject the work of Yeshua, they become the cause of our damnation and worth less than nothing.
Ruth
<snipped>
If I understood Ruth correctly, she (please forgive the assumption, I do not know your gender) is arguing that salvation is through Christ, not the law. The law is good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin. To what beneficial extent that is I do not know (Ruth, could you expand on that a bit? or please correct me where I'm wrong).
Byblos.
My name indeed is Ruth and I am a female, 67 year old, great grandmother from the USA. I am a gentile within the Messianic Jewish community for more than 14 years.
Yes, what you said is correct. I believe that salvation is through the Messiah Yeshua.
The MC Law, at the time of Acts was still "good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin". Now just how that applies is different, since there is no animal sacrifice system in place. Of course the MC Law is still in effect and it can bring people to repentance and sometimes to the knowledge of Yeshua, but the only way to have forgiveness today is through Yeshua, our Heavenly Priest. He has promised He would do that for us when we called upon Him.
I must repeat again that the MC Law offers no means of eternal salvation.
What obedience to the MC Law offers is good health, prosperity, good crops, safety, civil societies, union with God and long life here on earth. Blessings, blessings and more blessings.
Ruth
I appreciate the explanation. I can see what you mean. I can even agree with it to a certain extent (it becomes a question of fellowship or discipleship with God that has a temporal effect).
To summarize, Christ is the only way to salvation. The MC law profits nothing eternal (salvation-wise).
In that case, what is left for Christ to accomplish in an effort to fulfill the New Covenant that he hasn't already fulfilled on the cross? And for what purpose (since salvation is already secured through Him)?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
I believe that salvation is through the Messiah Yeshua.
The MC Law, at the time of Acts was still "good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin". Now just how that applies is different, since there is no animal sacrifice system in place. Of course the MC Law is still in effect and it can bring people to repentance and sometimes to the knowledge of Yeshua, but the only way to have forgiveness today is through Yeshua, our Heavenly Priest. He has promised He would do that for us when we called upon Him.
I must repeat again that the MC Law offers no means of eternal salvation.
What obedience to the MC Law offers is good health, prosperity, good crops, safety, civil societies, union with God and long life here on earth. Blessings, blessings and more blessings.
Ruth
So what are you saying, Ruth? Unless we all become Messianic Jews in additions to being Christians and keep all of the MC laws we won't be blessed? I can feel that weight already.
You can't become a Jew. You can just be grafted into the commonwealth of Israel. Remember, John said obeying the commandments of God was not a burden (1John 5:3)and God, Himself said that a person could keep them.(Deut.30:11)
Today, you can't keep all the MC Laws and neither can I. The ones I do keep, I receive a blessing for keeping. You also keep some of them, I'm sure, without thinking 'oh that's a MC Law'. Do you abstain from committing adultery or marrying a close relative? Do you refrain from eating rats and roadkill? If so, you receive a blessing. For others that you don't practice, you will not receive the blessing God intends you to have.
I know you fail to teach others to obey the MC Law and Yeshua said that those who do that will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matt.5:19) That's will be a significant loss, I'm afraid.
And if you intentionally disobey God's Laws, you are committing blasphemy. (Numbers 15:30-31)
Ruth
Byblos wrote:
<snipped>
from "ruthrush" I believe that salvation is through the Messiah Yeshua.
The MC Law, at the time of Acts was still "good for repentance and the forgiveness of sin". Now just how that applies is different, since there is no animal sacrifice system in place. Of course the MC Law is still in effect and it can bring people to repentance and sometimes to the knowledge of Yeshua, but the only way to have forgiveness today is through Yeshua, our Heavenly Priest. He has promised He would do that for us when we called upon Him.
I must repeat again that the MC Law offers no means of eternal salvation.
What obedience to the MC Law offers is good health, prosperity, good crops, safety, civil societies, union with God and long life here on earth. Blessings, blessings and more blessings.
Ruth
I appreciate the explanation. I can see what you mean. I can even agree with it to a certain extent (it becomes a question of fellowship or discipleship with God that has a temporal effect).
To summarize, Christ is the only way to salvation. The MC law profits nothing eternal (salvation-wise).
In that case, what is left for Christ to accomplish in an effort to fulfill the New Covenant that he hasn't already fulfilled on the cross? And for what purpose (since salvation is already secured through Him)?[/quote]
When Israel is regathered, and God lifts the veil He placed upon their eyes, (Romans11:25-32), some will come back to the land grieving for not recognizing their Messiah sooner. They will come back, accept the New Covenant which Yeshua will make with them and become the Nation of Priests they were intended to be. YHVH will write His Torah Law on their hearts and minds. None of the ones regathered will disobey it any more. They will teach it to the rest of the nations.
Ruth
Are Christians required to circumcise their 8-day old infants? Yes or no?
Do adult converts have to be circumcised before they can partake of the Passover meal? Yes or no?
These are God's laws. are they not?
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
Are Christians required to circumcise their 8-day old infants? Yes or no?
I would say yes but not to become Jewish. The Biblical reason, is that Ishmael and Abraham's household servants were circumcised even though they were not members of the covenant people. The covenant people are only the descendents of Isaac.
I've heard recently that there are some health advantages to being circumcised. The doctor recommended it for my 3 boys, 40 some years ago.
I think that parents should insist on it being done on the eighth day as that apparently is the best time relative to minimizing pain and complications.
Ruth
Do adult converts have to be circumcised before they can partake of the Passover meal? Yes or no?
There is no conversion to Biblical Messianic Judaism! The New Covenant (Jer.31) defines who is a member of the Nation of Israel: the descendents of those whose fathers came out of Egypt. The rabbinics who do it are adding to the Law of God. That is a sin!
Numbers 15 says all gentile gerim (believers in YHVH) are to be allowed to follow the MC Law. That includes the Passover meal.
Ruth
These are God's laws. are they not?
Infant circumcision is a Law of God.
Adult circumcision is not a Law of God! I explained that Acts 15, correctly says it was a custom of Moses. Paul and the Council ruled Biblically that adult gentiles should not be circumcised.
A good research textbook on the subject is "The Beginnings of Jewishness" by Shane J.D. Cohen. A warning however is that he is a rabbinic Jew and supports the add on rabbinic laws even though he acknowledges that they are not Biblical.
As I said above, the Jeremiah passage defines who is a Jew and rules out conversion after the Exodus from Egypt.
The EX. 12 passage is about the first Passover in Egypt and is not part of the MC Law. Only believing Egyptian gentiles, many of which left Egypt with the Nation of Israel, were circumcised and kept the Passover. They put the blood of the lamb on their doorposts and their firstborn were not killed by the angel of God.
After 9 plagues, I believe many of the Egyptians feared that the God who performed them could also cause their firstborn sons to die. I believe many wanted to avoid that and professed belief in YHVH. But it had to be strong enough belief that they would go through adult circumcision.
Those whose belief was that strong, God allowed to partake of the Passover and avoid the last plague.
Ruth
OK. Rather than focus on the internal inconsistencies here (Exodus 12:48-49 clearly commands adult circumcision), how is your view of infant circumcision consistent with the previous scripture in question?
"For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." (1 Corinthians 7:19)
Why does Paul separate circumcision from the "commandments of God"?
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
